Private Bus Services Queries

Southsider1

Just a couple of queries guys'n'gals about a private bus operator operating a town service in a provincial town:

1. Are they legally obliged to issue a ticket when a cash fare is paid?

2. IF they carry free travel pass holders how do they get paid for them?
ie. do the Dept of Transport just pay a set fee or do they pay so much per passenger? If so how do they audit this? / how does the bus company claim for them?

Victor

Southsider1 wrote: »

1. Are they legally obliged to issue a ticket when a cash fare is paid?

I don't know.

2. IF they carry free travel pass holders how do they get paid for them?
ie. do the Dept of Transport just pay a set fee or do they pay so much per passenger? If so how do they audit this? / how does the bus company claim for them?

Not all operators participate in the scheme. The are paid by the Department of Social Protection (recently re-named). Typically they are paid about 70% of the equivalent single cash fare - not only do they not have to handle the cash, but they get a nice lump sum at the end of the month. I imagine most companies keep records, but I understand they are actually paid based on surveys carried out every few months.

KC61

Southsider1 wrote: »

Just a couple of queries guys'n'gals about a private bus operator operating a town service in a provincial town:

1. Are they legally obliged to issue a ticket when a cash fare is paid?

2. IF they carry free travel pass holders how do they get paid for them?
ie. do the Dept of Transport just pay a set fee or do they pay so much per passenger? If so how do they audit this? / how does the bus company claim for them?

Yes is the answer to point 1 I believe

antoinolachtnai

No. There is no obligation to issue a ticket (that I know of). If public transport were a VAT item it would require a receipt on demand, but it is exempt. Issuing tickets is widely considered good practice, but on certain types of route, it is not worthwhile.

There are surveys, carried out by the bus company itself, but these are carried out every few years, not every few months.

70 percent is really not a lot. Margins in public transport are small. The cost of handling cash is pretty small, around 2 percent depending. It would be better to get the money sooner rather than at the end of the month. There is fraud in the scheme, and operators are severely restricted in their ability to police the fraud. They do not get paid for fraudulent journeys and the full fare which would otherwise be paid is foregone. Some of the travel is peak-time travel, which means it may require extra capacity. Some routes have a high proportion of travel passes and the net effect of this is to drive up prices for cash passengers. There is actually a good bit of bureaucracy involved in the surveys, probably amounting to around 40c per person carried on the scheme during a survey period. (CIE does not have this burden.)

Cookie_Monster

you are entitled to a receipt regardless.

AlekSmart

There is fraud in the scheme, and operators are severely restricted in their ability to police the fraud. They do not get paid for fraudulent journeys and the full fare which would otherwise be paid is foregone. Some of the travel is peak-time travel, which means it may require extra capacity. Some routes have a high proportion of travel passes and the net effect of this is to drive up prices for cash passengers. There is actually a good bit of bureaucracy involved in the surveys, probably amounting to around 40c per person carried on the scheme during a survey period. (CIE does not have this burden.)

Excellent post by Antoin and touching upon a very rapidly developing situation for ALL public transport operators partaking in the Dept of Social Protection (!) Free Travel Scheme.

Much of the problem stems from the actual design of the FreePass itself,which appears to have been designed specifically to make fraud easier.

Within the CIE Urban areas there is a requirement for users to have a photo-id,however this relatively low tech security-feature is widely ignored or,worse still,availed of to allow for TWO seperate users of the one pass....The DSP client using the Photo ID alone as a pass whilst a friend/relative uses the printed cardboard.

The increase in unemployment and other DSP categories of payment has brought with it a substantial increase in newly issued passes to a wide cross-section of persons.....not specifically Old Age Pensioners.

There is a tendency to equate the entire scheme as being the OAP Free Pass when,in fact,there are many other qualifying DSP customers.

It is quite difficult to pin-down accurate costs for the actual Free-Travel scheme itself,but I feel confident in asserting that the DSP will NOT be increasing the total budget which now has to cover Private Bus and Coach operators as well as an expanding LUAS network in Dublin.

It is,again as Antoin says,exceedingly difficult for individual Busdrivers to "Police" the use of the Free Pass.

The document itself is most indistinct and needs to be closely scrutinized to discover whether its a Pass-Holder Only or Pass Holder & Spouse/Partner (Incidentally the Partner can only be of the opposite sex,with one lone pass-holder allowed to take his same-sex partner as a result of his successful legal challenge to the then rules)

By far and away the most difficult thing to explain to Pass Holders is the term "Pass-Holder Only".

I have often spent many minutes defining the meaning of that term printed upon a Pass presented for two,only to be asked..."What duz dah mean?"....quickly followed by "Noneh de udder driverz ever asks abouh it"...as indeed few bother to get involved in an arguement which their manager will most assuredly wash his/her hands of.

The Republic`s fascination with Dickensian Public Transport Operational methodology is in stark contrast with the Northern Ireland Office and Translink`s highly efficient and far more user friendly Senior Citizen Smartpass,a genuine SmartCard complete with Photo which allows and accounts for the "Free" element in real-time,something which can only add to the sustainability of the system in the long run.

It`s perhaps illustrative to see the Northern Irish Travel scheme described as a "Concessionary" one,rather than the more evocative and simplistic "Free Travel Scheme" as sed in the Republic.

Perhaps the most glaring assistance to fraud is the perpetual nature of the Free Pass itself.
Unlike the Northern Irish SmartPass,valid for 2 years,our version is valid forever and ever and ever amen.....there is no expiry date on any such pass once issued and it can be,and is used until it literally disintigrates or the holder dies,in which case the Pass is supposed to be returned to the DSP.....;)

How many Free Passes are in circulation ?...The last figure I came across in a Dail Committee presentation by the DSP was 600,000.
That was for actual Passes,which means the number of persons may well be far higher,as theoretically any Pass-Holder can take a Spouse/Partner or apply for a "Companion" add-on by satisfying the DSP as to the reasons for it.

The simple answer is we do not know exactly how many persons are now travelling about the country FOC and worse still the Issuing agency appears to be quite happy with this situation.

If any single thing illustrates this Country`s present status as a location where reality never intrudes, it is the Department of Social Protections`s Free Travel Scheme....:D

antoinolachtnai

If a person presents a document in order to get something he or she is not entitled to, you are committing fraud.

It is not driver complacency. Drivers have no means whatsoever to check the validity of the passes or determine whether they belong to the person presenting. All they can do is call the Department of Social Welfare if they suspect fraud.

foggy_lad

These free travel passes can be bought for as little as €50 and even if obtained legitimately a 2nd can be obtained by claiming loss of the 1st and even the photo Id is easy to forge as you simply need a gas or esb bill of the legitimate holder and you claim to be them in Dublin bus hq!

There should be a requirement to produce passports or other state photo Id to obtain the travel pass photo I'd! It should also be a requirement that the pass holder carries either a passport or driving license to prove their identity!

antoinolachtnai

Good question. Yes, if the serial number is fake or invalid, you get nothing. If another person's pass is presented, neither department nor operator know about it but the operator is done out of 30 percent of the fare (because the social welfare only pause 70 percent ofcthe normal cash fare).

foggy_lad

If any driver or inspector etc suspects fraud it is their responsibility/duty to take the suspect travel pass and give it to their superiors for returning to the department who can then ascertain whether or not it is legitimate.

As for the fraudulent passes there is no way of knowing how many there are but there are a lot! The companies get paid on how many they accept so if I am jj kavanagh and accept 50 passes today on my busses how do the department know they are fraudulent? Most fraud is committed as I said before by people claiming loss of their pass and a duplicate is given which is given to a third party with the holders proof of address and social welfare card and they then get their free photo Id in Dublin bus!

KC61

Checking tickets is not the responsibility of drivers but inspectors and ticket checkers.

They are perfectly entitled to retain the ticket if they suspect them of being fraudulent.

foggy_lad

There are no consequences it is just seen as an aspect of the free travel scheme that is unavoidable but essential in preventing fraud.

Something like insisting on good passports or driving licence needs to be done soon or those in most need of free travel will not get it as the scheme could be ended.

foggy_lad

KC61 wrote: »

Checking tickets is not the responsibility of drivers but inspectors and ticket checkers.

They are perfectly entitled to retain the ticket if they suspect them of being fraudulent.

Does the driver not have a responsibility to ensure passengers have the correct valid tickets for travel?

KC61

foggy_lad wrote: »

Does the driver not have a responsibility to ensure passengers have the correct valid tickets for travel?

No - that is the responsibility of the passenger. The driver's responsibility is to issue the ticket for the journey requested and to drive the bus. Some drivers will check where people are going etc., but strictly speaking that is the responsibility of the revenue protection teams and ticket checkers.

That changed some time ago.

antoinolachtnai

foggy_lad wrote: »

If any driver or inspector etc suspects fraud it is their responsibility/duty to take the suspect travel pass and give it to their superiors for returning to the department who can then ascertain whether or not it is legitimate.

No, it is not acceptable to do this as far as I know. The matter is simply reported to the Department of Social Welfare and they may send an inspector.

antoinolachtnai

No, it is still fraud.

If you travel using a fake pass or one that doesn't belong to you you are leaving yourself open to prosecution which could entail a big fine and even a prison sentence. Just because that doesn't happen often doesn't mean that it somehow isn't a crime.

foggy_lad

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

No, it is still fraud.

If you travel using a fake pass or one that doesn't belong to you you are leaving yourself open to prosecution which could entail a big fine and even a prison sentence. Just because that doesn't happen often doesn't mean that it somehow isn't a crime.

Is this in answer to a question?

On a side issue I have noticed some railway stations have signs up saying that all free travel pass holders must show valid photo identification
Is this legal or allowed?

Vic_08

KC61 wrote: »

No - that is the responsibility of the passenger. The driver's responsibility is to issue the ticket for the journey requested and to drive the bus. Some drivers will check where people are going etc., but strictly speaking that is the responsibility of the revenue protection teams and ticket checkers.

That changed some time ago.

That is Dublin Bus policy, it does not apply to other operators.



BTW What happened to this thread, a bunch of posts from one person have disappeared.