ATH Knockout Quater final 3: Waltersobchek vs Campo

Bounty Hunter

So we had a quality opener with Voltwad seing off Volt_2007 to progress on to face Flahavaj in the quaterfinal and the really tight Degag vs Campo match which saw Campo progress to another QF, This was followed by argueably the tie of the round when Waltersobcheck booked his place in the next round at Danger Dave's expense, then we found out the final first round winner as Dare 2 Defy took on Dieselqueen, with DQ coming out on top.

The first quaterfinal saw the clash of the co-champs but didnt quite live up to its potential but saw Cactus Col progress to the Semi-final Where it was later determined he would be joined by Voltwad oas he overcame Flahavaj. Now who will make up the final Semi final, we find out as Waltersobchek takes on Campo

Simplified version of the rules:

I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

see the first few match ups or OP of the main thread for further details if any are needed

Q. In your opinion which Raw or SD superstar would benefit the most from a heel or face turn? If its to be done in the near future how would you suggest he be turned? and why did you make this choice over possible other alternatives?

waltersobchak

Q. In your opinion which Raw or SD superstar would benefit the most from a heel or face turn? If its to be done in the near future how would you suggest he be turned? and why did you make this choice over possible other alternatives?


For me there's only one answer to this Question.. The superstar i would turn heel would be John Cena.. Cena's character and persona hasn't changed since Cena became WWE's poster boy in 2005.. In the time Cena has managed to win the WWE title 9 times and has held the title for over 1,000 days, making him the 5 longest reigning champion in WWWF/WWF/WWE history.. In that time Cena's persona has also managed to alienate the older male audience of WWE, Cena is argubly the most controversial champion in WWE history as we all know, Kids and Women love him but the majority of the Male demographic down right despise him..

Why would i turn Cena heel? Well although WWE now state that kids are their core audience, that obviously isnt true.. Who orders and pays for WWE's PPVs? 18-49 Males.. Who goes to those shows/PPVs? 18-49 Males.. Who buy's the majority of the Merch at the shows and live events? 18-49 Males. Whatever way you look at it the 18-49 Males are WWE and indeed Pro Wrestlings core demographic..

Cena is in my opinion the most stale performer currently in WWE, for the last 5 years his gimmick hasnt changed, and has slightly evolved from a rapper, to whatever it is he is now. Although Cena has improved as a wrestler in that time, he's basically a one dimensional superstar, who has the same catchprases, the same move set and needs to constantly hold the WWEs top title to justify his position as the top performer in the company..

How would i turn Cena? Simply i would have Cena address his haters in the crowd then also have him turn on the kids that support him, "because he doesnt need there support to further his success" Basically i would have Cena be an arrogant prick, that just ignores the crowd and is more ruthless and selfish is both his actions and in his promo's. Really have him play off the heat he currently has with the older males, whilst also turning on the childern who adore him..

Why Cena over everyone else? Well almost all the top performers in WWE.. HHH, Orton, Edge, Jericho, CM Punk, Batista, have been either Heel or Face over the course of the last 5/6 years.. The only time Cena has been heel was at the very start of his career on Smackdown when he was "A no good street thug" and in my opinion he was a tremendous heel. But the days of the popular babyface are long gone, nowadays the line between Face/Heel are blurred as guys like Edge/Orton/Punk and Jericho are not only the most interesting and endearing characters in WWE, they also have the support of the older male audience.. Which by turning Cena into a compelling heel would finally earn the respect of the male members of the WWE Universe..

campo

Q. In your opinion which Raw or SD superstar would benefit the most from a heel or face turn? If its to be done in the near future how would you suggest he be turned? and why did you make this choice over possible other alternatives?

I would turn the Miz face why the Miz you may ask simple because he is AWESOME , but in all seriousness there is a couple of reasons I would turn him face

* Merchandise: Not sure how much Miz merchandise is sold by the WWE but if he was face and over the would sell bundles of the stuff just imagine a whole AWESOME range of t-shirts, caps , posters the would sell by the bucket load with just his simple one liner of IM AWESOME..

*Mic Work: Miz on the mic for me is top class if he was face I would have him be similar to the Rock where he can just basically take the P out of future opponents i.e he is about to face Jericho he cuts a funny style promo calling Jericho a Canadian robot while doing the robot dance that type of thing the kids who lets be honest are the WWE Universe right now would love him.

*In ring ability: Ok we all know he is no Danielson in the ring but he has greatly improved and also faces dont really need to be the best in the ring just see Cena and Hogan

Now how would I turn him face for me I would have Jo Mo getting a beat down and the Miz to come down make the save and clear house, he then goes on in the next couple of weeks to cut great promos against the heels who beat down on Jo Mo ( SES would be perfect but not on same brand ) and then of course at a PPV he goes on with Jo Mo to beat them after the PPV they both go back as single wrestlers but Miz now as a face.
And why not anyone else I have to agree on Walter with this every other superstar has been a face or heel back to face back to heel plenty of times over the years

waltersobchak

I think Miz is a very good choice campo, But for me personally its far far too early to turn him face, as he has finally found his niche in the last 6-9 months on Raw, as that cocky ahole heel.. Turning him now would completely lose his momentum, and some of the popularity that he has gained in the last few months. The other problem i'd have with the Miz as a face is his gimmick, as a heel it works, the im Awesome line is pretty funny, as a face? thats pretty cheessy and could really get on the nerves of the fans, as in my honest opinion, certain characters in the WWE.. Randy Orton, Edge and indeed the Miz work as cocky heels because its an extension of their real life personalities, but just turned up to 11. So when they turn face it doesnt quite work so well, as they come across ridiculously cheesy and its not so fun for the fans to get behind someone thats basically uncool..

Whereas Cena has the exact same problem, as its hard for the older fans, who have had Stone Cold, The Rock, etc etc to get behind Cena when he's a complete babyface from the Hogan era of Wrestling, and 10-15 years ago face's where cool, because they had an edge to them, they weren't 100% squeaky clean "Say your prayers, eat your vitamin's B.S'ers like John Cena basically is..

But if Cena was to turn heel, the naysayers would finally get behind the guy, it mightn't have the same impact as Hogan joining the outsiders and forming the NWO.. But then again for a generation of kids maybe it would?..And it would endear those older male members of the WWEs audience because its still fun to get behind the heel, its still fun to boo the good guy. And an edgey John Cena would finally have the respect of the WWE universe..

campo

waltersobchak wrote: »

I think Miz is a very good choice campo, But for me personally its far far too early to turn him face, as he has finally found his niche in the last 6-9 months on Raw, as that cocky ahole heel.. Turning him now would completely lose his momentum.

Or it would imho propel him even more and make him a main stander in the WWE.

certain characters in the WWE.. Randy Orton, Edge and indeed the Miz work as cocky heels because its an extension of their real life personalities, but just turned up to 11. So when they turn face it doesnt quite work.

Have to disagree here as Randy Orton as a face which he kinda is now is so over with the WWE the pops he gets are unreal and Edge also works very well as a face but just plays the heel part so much better


[B]But if Cena was to turn heel, the naysayers would finally get behind the guy, [/B]

See this is the problem I have with Cena I dont think the fans care enough about him it would not matter if he was a heel or a face if you are above the age of 14 you just would not care enough to give him the heat he would need to make him a top class heel which he would need to be as it is pointless going from top babyface to a heel unless you can play the heel just as well if not better then the babyface you were playing.
if you were to change Cena to a heel you would also need to change his gimmick as it is stale at the moment plus and this is a big one to change Cena to a heel WWE would have to kiss goodbye to all that cash they get from his merchandise yes you are going to say kids dont order PPVs and so on you are right they dont but as a father who has a wrestling mad kid I know I had to order a couple of PPVs because he badgered me to get them in just so he could see Cena and millions of kids around the world are doing the same to their parents.

Another main reason I picked the Miz was because he is young and a up comer who could be the face of WWE for a very long time Cena has been there and done it ok he will be around for a while longer but as I said previously do enough people care enough for Cena to make it work where as the Miz he would make people tune and want to see what he does next.

waltersobchak

Or it would imho propel him even more and make him a main stander in the WWE.

I honestly think that is far far too early for Miz to be turned face just yet because he still hasnt proved himself to be more than a decent mid carder imho, and by him being turned face the only thing he'll be propelled to is a jobber, also turning someone overnight never works imo, as the turn needs to be slow and follow what the crowd is either cheering or booing. The situation reminds me of Randy Orton in 2004 when he won the title from Benoit and was kicked out of Evolution. Because people had booed him for so long, it was damn near impossible for them to then cheer for the guy practically overnight and the run completely bombed.

Have to disagree here as Randy Orton as a face which he kinda is now is so over with the WWE the pops he gets are unreal and Edge also works very well as a face but just plays the heel part so much better

Orton isn't exactly a face though, he's a tweener with the lines of his character completely blurred, and the reason he's cheered is because he's such an interesting character, and the more of an asshole he is the more people cheer him, and he's an example of what i was talking about above, because he was getting so many good reactions from the crowd it was totally logical for WWE to turn him, unlike Edge who was also a tremendous heel, who WWE turned face but again its very hard for people to cheer a guy who was a total asshole, and then basically a face overnight, and his face run bombed and he was to being a heel in less than 4 months..

See this is the problem I have with Cena I dont think the fans care enough about him it would not matter if he was a heel or a face if you are above the age of 14 you just would not care enough to give him the heat he would need to make him a top class heel which he would need to be as it is pointless going from top babyface to a heel unless you can play the heel just as well if not better then the babyface you were playing.

But thats the thing, the fans obviously do care about Cena, because he gets the biggest reaction of anybody in the WWE, and whether its negative or positive that proves people care about him because otherwise he'd get no reaction at all. I think Cena was an outstanding heel circa 2003-2004, amazing on the mic and was very over on Smackdown, but since moving to Raw WWE basically put all there eggs into Cena's basket and have haulted him being anything more that what he currently is. Which is the PG Poster Boy.. And if WWE were to play off the heat he gets then it would launch WWE into a far more exciting situation, as since Cena won his first title in 2005 the Raw Main Event scene has been far too stagnant and has no doubt lost WWE alot of fans.

if you were to change Cena to a heel you would also need to change his gimmick as it is stale at the moment plus and this is a big one to change Cena to a heel WWE would have to kiss goodbye to all that cash they get from his merchandise yes you are going to say kids dont order PPVs and so on you are right they dont but as a father who has a wrestling mad kid I know I had to order a couple of PPVs because he badgered me to get them in just so he could see Cena and millions of kids around the world are doing the same to their parents.

To be honest i wouldnt change a thing about Cena in the short term over a longer period i would just allow his character to evolve, especially with being a heel, the fresh dimension would allow for some real character growth, and also for the longevity of Cena career the opportunity for a change to his gimmick is of real importance in my honest opinion, Because simply put John Cena is in his 30's now, so i seriously doubt fans would still care about a 40 year old man wearing jean shorts, football jerseys and thinks he's a white rapper.

As far as merchandise goes, the WWE would more than make up for the lost of childerenm, with the gaining of more adult fans, not only as the price of kids gear would be far cheaper than the cost of adult gear. At a guess id say currently less than 10% of Cena's young fanbase currently pay for WWE's PPV, with the majority of purchases coming from WWE diehard fans who buy them whether WWE is great, good or indifferent. Also WWE is far more of an ensamble cast nowadays where guys like HHH, Undertaker, Batista, Edge, CM Punk, Orton and Jericho account for as many PPV buys than Cena does.. Whereas in the past the popularity of certain wrestling periods can be attributed to certain performers, Bruno Sammartino, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan,Shawn Michaels, Steve Austin.. If Cena was finally able to turn heel perhaps he could be attributed to the success of another period of wrestling popularity instead of being a bit player in the mix with 8-9 other guys.

Another main reason I picked the Miz was because he is young and a up comer who could be the face of WWE for a very long time Cena has been there and done it ok he will be around for a while longer but as I said previously do enough people care enough for Cena to make it work where as the Miz he would make people tune and want to see what he does
next

The Miz hasnt proved himself to be anything more than a midcarder yet, perhaps in 2 years time Miz could be in the Main Event but thats all relative to Miz's own success whether he stays injury free and still engages the audience because he could still end up being the next Carlito or Mr Kennedy.. But either way theres absolutely no way that Miz will be a success as a face imho. But Cena with a slight change to his gimmick and a heel turm would finally be the most engaging character in WWE. And will continue to Main Evant Wrestlemania's and PPV's whilst freshing up the boring stagnant Raw Main Event scene and also allow for someone else to step up as the next big baby face on Raw

campo

[QUOTE=waltersobchak;66061406]I honestly think that is far far too early for Miz to be turned face just yet because he still hasnt proved himself to be more than a decent mid carder imho, and by him being turned face the only thing he'll be propelled to is a jobber, also turning someone overnight never works imo

All a matter of opinions obviously but imho he has proved himself to be more then just a decent mid carder but he does need that push and making him face could just be the push he needs.



But thats the thing, the fans obviously do care about Cena, because he gets the biggest reaction of anybody in the WWE, and whether its negative or positive that proves people care about him because otherwise he'd get no reaction at all.

Yes he gets a reaction but the reaction he gets is Oh no not cena again or the you cant wrestle chant turning him heel would only give him Great Khali heat which is not a good thing at least the kids cheer for him now.


To be honest i wouldnt change a thing about Cena in the short term

But again only a opinion but he needs to change whether he stays face or heel people are losing interest in him.

.But Cena with a slight change to his gimmick and a heel turm would finally be the most engaging character in WWE. And will continue to Main Evant Wrestlemania's and PPV's

This just reminds me of Triple H going from face to heel but still headling all the PPVs and keeping the young up and comers in the mid cards as they are afraid of their own position, WWE ratings have fallen over the years and there is many reasons behind them but I think the biggest reason is they dont promote their younger guys enough

A miz face turn with his mic skills and look would get in a lot more viewers and inmho again he would be the new face of WWE just like the Rock was,

Bounty Hunter

with 2/3 of the vote congratulations to Walersobchek who rounds out the final four, well played and hard luck Campo