Ed Joyce to play for Ireland again

Dasbo

Ed Joyce has confirmed he wishes to play for Ireland again...

http://munstercricket.com/2010/05/cricket-ireland-ed-joyce-confirms-ireland-ambitions/

TrueDub

Great news for Irish cricket - he's a class act and will be of immense benefit to the Irish team and extended squad.

It's somewhat poignant that this is announced 2 days after Eoin Morgan is selected in the England test squad for the first time.

Bobo148

Dasbo wrote: »

Ed Joyce has confirmed he wishes to play for Ireland again...

http://munstercricket.com/2010/05/cricket-ireland-ed-joyce-confirms-ireland-ambitions/

If there is any justice in the (cricket) world the ICC will tell Ireland where to go with their application for a change of the eligibility criteria. We complain about players being 'stolen' and changing countries at the drop of a hat, and then go looking for a derrogation for one player?

That is not to say that I wouldn't be happy to see Ed back in Irish colours. When he left there was little prospect of ODI let alone test cricket for Ireland. Eoin is a different matter.

d'Oracle

Bobo148 wrote: »

If there is any justice in the (cricket) world the ICC will tell Ireland where to go with their application for a change of the eligibility criteria. We complain about players being 'stolen' and changing countries at the drop of a hat, and then go looking for a derrogation for one player?

That is not to say that I wouldn't be happy to see Ed back in Irish colours. When he left there was little prospect of ODI let alone test cricket for Ireland. Eoin is a different matter.

I'm sorry, what the hell is you definition of justice?
Who is trying to change the eligibility criteria?

TrueDub

d'Oracle wrote: »

I'm sorry, what the hell is you definition of justice?
Who is trying to change the eligibility criteria?

To be fair, we are. We're asking the ICC to allow a player play for us before he has completed the mandatory 4 year qualification period. It's only by a few weeks, but it's still asking for an exemption.

Bobo148

TrueDub wrote: »

To be fair, we are. We're asking the ICC to allow a player play for us before he has completed the mandatory 4 year qualification period. It's only by a few weeks, but it's still asking for an exemption.

Yeah, what he said....

d'Oracle

TrueDub wrote: »

To be fair, we are. We're asking the ICC to allow a player play for us before he has completed the mandatory 4 year qualification period. It's only by a few weeks, but it's still asking for an exemption.

We are looking for an exemption under the special circumstances clause.
Which is not "changing the eligibility criteria".

And Bobo, this still does not explain your deeply warped sense of justice.
Ireland should be punished for having their players taken off them?

Bobo148

d'Oracle wrote: »

We are looking for an exemption under the special circumstances clause.
Which is not "changing the eligibility criteria".

And Bobo, this still does not explain your deeply warped sense of justice.
Ireland should be punished for having their players taken off them?

Ireland have complained that England have taken their players from them, however England (and the players) have just used the rules in place to allow that.

Now Ireland wants to register a player who is currently eligible to play only for another country and is seeking a rule change to do that.

It is a simple matter of justice in the laws that Ireland not have the rules changed solely for them.

PS Can you please find and quote the 'special circumstances clause' you refer to?

TrueDub

Bobo148 wrote: »

Can you please find and quote the 'special circumstances clause' you refer to?

ICC Website - Player Eligibility document

http://static.icc-cricket.yahoo.net/ugc/documents/DOC_37CE1CD9A2F8BC0C0053716144283ACA_1257677746881_78.pdf

Page 3, Clause D.

d'Oracle

Bobo148 wrote: »

Ireland have complained that England have taken their players from them, however England (and the players) have just used the rules in place to allow that.

Now Ireland wants to register a player who is currently eligible to play only for another country and is seeking a rule change to do that.

It is a simple matter of justice in the laws that Ireland not have the rules changed solely for them.

PS Can you please find and quote the 'special circumstances clause' you refer to?

Thats nonsense.
England have a huge player base.
They do not have to go abroad to seek talent, they choose to.
And in doing so they are depleting our talent resources.

Joyce never played test cricket, despite being good enough, but went to England because he wanted to play test cricket. He was dropped like a sack during a slight dip in form and then ignored when his county form excelled. So England basically offered him a place as if having a punt on him being good enough.

How the hell have Ireland done anything wrong?
You think it is justice that Ireland should produce players and then loose them to England for the sake of a few ODI's because the ECB is too lazy to invest in their own players?

Bobo148

TrueDub wrote: »

ICC Website - Player Eligibility document

http://static.icc-cricket.yahoo.net/ugc/documents/DOC_37CE1CD9A2F8BC0C0053716144283ACA_1257677746881_78.pdf

Page 3, Clause D.

Thanks.

Sigh, I'm tempted to start a discussion on the difference between special and Exceptional, but I won't bother.

Suffice it to say that there is nothing Exceptional about this case. It is simply a player who is currently eligible for one country and wishes to declare for another.

D3PO

sigh the fact is it int a rule change we are looking at its the use of a pre existing clause.

Start a discussion between special and exception all you want the fact is your definition doenst mean anything in this case, the ICC's definition of said clause is all that matters.

If I didnt know better Id swear your were trolling, the least you could do is accept that your previous statement that Ireland are looking for a rule change was incorrect and grossly misrepresentative of the situation at hand

Bobo148

D3PO wrote: »

sigh the fact is it int a rule change we are looking at its the use of a pre existing clause.

Start a discussion between special and exception all you want the fact is your definition doenst mean anything in this case, the ICC's definition of said clause is all that matters.

If I didnt know better Id swear your were trolling, the least you could do is accept that your previous statement that Ireland are looking for a rule change was incorrect and grossly misrepresentative of the situation at hand

Ok, I admit that they are not looking for a rule change, they are looking for an exception to be made to the rules.

Let's look at it another way - if George Dockrell was three weeks away from the end of his four year residency qualification period and the ECB asked for exceptional circumstances to be used because their test series started in April not May, would you be happy to grant it?

I am not trolling just looking for an objective viewpoint.

D3PO

no but then again I dont think your comparing apples with apples.

when the ICC grants us test playing status and provides us with the same financial backing as they do England then Im happy to compare our situations equally.

The ICC continually talk about helping associate nations improve, ive yet to see any evidence of this. They can talk the talk but can they actually walk the walk ?

d'Oracle

Bobo148 wrote: »

Ok, I admit that they are not looking for a rule change, they are looking for an exception to be made to the rules.

Let's look at it another way - if George Dockrell was three weeks away from the end of his four year residency qualification period and the ECB asked for exceptional circumstances to be used because their test series started in April not May, would you be happy to grant it?

.

No.
Because they are a full test playing nation, with a huge playing population, the financial resources and the coaching expertise to develop their own players.

You either are trolling or are having some serious trouble coming to terms with the reality of the issue.

purple_hatstand

This from the guardian...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/may/24/ed-joyce-england-ireland

...there doesn't seem to be anything under-handed or clandestine going on here at all. The man wants to play for Ireland again and hopefully, he'll be eligible for next year's World Cup. This is all good news...

TrueDub

d'Oracle wrote: »

You either are trolling or are having some serious trouble coming to terms with the reality of the issue.

Take it easy - he's not trolling, he just has a different perspective on the issue.

I'm delighted to see Ed back, however there is a certain irony in Ireland requesting a special exemption to the rules we have complained about in the past.

The ICC will decide if he can play next April, and if not he'll be back with us next summer.

d'Oracle

TrueDub wrote: »

Take it easy - he's not trolling, he just has a different perspective on the issue.

I'm delighted to see Ed back, however there is a certain irony in Ireland requesting a special exemption to the rules we have complained about in the past.

I don't agree at all, but I will play nice.

Bobo148

d'Oracle wrote: »

No.
Because they are a full test playing nation, with a huge playing population, the financial resources and the coaching expertise to develop their own players.

You either are trolling or are having some serious trouble coming to terms with the reality of the issue.

One man's reality is another mans surreality.

I am a huge supporter of Irish cricket, both locally and at international level. The reality I see is that there is a level of cricket being played by this country which is higher than many people recognise or give credence to. At the same time I can see significant problems with the structure and application of domestic cricket.

I also recognise the place that Ireland as a team holds in the realms of international cricket. The reality is that to the established nations we are an annoyance which crops us at international tournaments and can be a banana skin. It could be argued that the ICC hold us in the same light, we don't contribute financially and will not for a while, so we are no use at the moment.

That means that the ICC rules on player eligibility and everything else (e.g. the reduction of associate team places in the world cup) are never going to be changed in our favour. I feel that Cricket Ireland, and particularily the CEO, recognise this and have used the ICC system very very well to get to where we are at the moment.

Where is this all heading? We have to accept that the rules will always be against us while we are outside the golden circle. We have to keep pushing on and off the field to advance our status and we have to use the ICC rules to get where we want to go rather than change the rules to reflect where we are at the moment.

In this case it is perhaps not in our interest to complain too much about the defection of players - after all we would be complaining to the very teams that are taking them - and it is perhaps wise to seek to use the rules to seek exceptional circumstances for the re-registering of a former player. We should not hold out too much hope that that will go in our favour.

One last thing to consider. None of the test nations have any concern with the development of Irish cricket. The ICC should have this concern in mind, and they would say that they do, but after all a) the ICC is made up of the test playing nations and b) the advancement of Ireland to a test playing nation would simply reduce the pot of money for the existing nations. I would dearly love to see a full-strength Ireland team play a first class game against a full strength Zimbabwe or Bangladesh, but recognise that there is currently no need for them to offer that facility to us.

TrueDub

d'Oracle wrote: »

I don't agree at all, but I will play nice.

Thank you for playing nice, it's appreciated.

You're fully entitled not to agree, too - but tell us why. Bobo has supplied a well-written and reasoned post about why he thinks as he does. I would agree with him on a lot of points. If you provide a similar post, the discussion will be similarly better - no obligation, of course.

d'Oracle

Bobo148 wrote: »

Where is this all heading? We have to accept that the rules will always be against us while we are outside the golden circle. We have to keep pushing on and off the field to advance our status and we have to use the ICC rules to get where we want to go rather than change the rules to reflect where we are at the moment.

In this case it is perhaps not in our interest to complain too much about the defection of players - after all we would be complaining to the very teams that are taking them - and it is perhaps wise to seek to use the rules to seek exceptional circumstances for the re-registering of a former player. We should not hold out too much hope that that will go in our favour.

Firstly, there aren't "teams" there is "a team" the only other case as far as I can see is Nannes (who was born and raised in Aussie).

England are, if I'm not missing something here, the ONLY full nation to consistently bring players in from other countries. And the ICC are not only England.

Secondly, I don't see your point in the first paragraph. You seem to be arguing the point you were originally arguing against. Ireland are trying to make the most of the situation using the rules available to them. By your own rationale Ireland cannot push "off the field" because they do not have the clout.

Where is your consistency? Is it that we are equals and so it is just that we can't have our player back or that we are the hopeless inferiors and we should get our player back?
And for that matter, where are you getting this complaining malarky from?
When did Cricket Ireland complain to the ICC about our players being taken? You talk in terms of the bodies but your issue is with behavior of fans and media people.

Your post seems to add up to "we should shut up and be good little associates" I don't accept that. Other nations have become full members. Bangladesh were annoyances originally.
Kenya nearly made the step up and we are a lot more stable than them.

djimi

d'Oracle wrote: »

Thats nonsense.
England have a huge player base.
They do not have to go abroad to seek talent, they choose to.
And in doing so they are depleting our talent resources.

Joyce never played test cricket, despite being good enough, but went to England because he wanted to play test cricket. He was dropped like a sack during a slight dip in form and then ignored when his county form excelled. So England basically offered him a place as if having a punt on him being good enough.

How the hell have Ireland done anything wrong?
You think it is justice that Ireland should produce players and then loose them to England for the sake of a few ODI's because the ECB is too lazy to invest in their own players?

Ireland have done nothing wrong but neither have England tbf, certainly not in their selection of our players. Morgan and Joyce are two players who are playing in their domestic set up, show fantastic potential, and have declared their intentions to play for England. If they are eligible to select them then I dont see why they shouldnt be expected to. I dont think there are too many who would say Morgan isnt in that side on merit and doesnt deserve a test call up. They could have given Joyce a fairer crack but tbh we all know what the England selectors are like when it comes to dropping players and so would Joyce have known, so it was a risk he would have had to be aware of and consciously taken.

Its poxy for Irish cricket that we lose our best players, but until the entire archaic set up of international cricket is revised and teams like Ireland are given more equal opportunities and a chance to play test cricket I dont think its going to improve. The fault lies with the ICC, not the EBC.

d'Oracle

djimi wrote: »

Ireland have done nothing wrong but neither have England tbf, certainly not in their selection of our players. Morgan and Joyce are two players who are playing in their domestic set up, show fantastic potential, and have declared their intentions to play for England. If they are eligible to select them then I dont see why they shouldnt be expected to. I dont think there are too many who would say Morgan isnt in that side on merit and doesnt deserve a test call up. They could have given Joyce a fairer crack but tbh we all know what the England selectors are like when it comes to dropping players and so would Joyce have known, so it was a risk he would have had to be aware of and consciously taken.

Its poxy for Irish cricket that we lose our best players, but until the entire archaic set up of international cricket is revised and teams like Ireland are given more equal opportunities and a chance to play test cricket I dont think its going to improve. The fault lies with the ICC, not the EBC.

I disagree entirely.
I am happy to see Morgan selected to play tests, but having seen the long road some English cricketers have had to take and the lack of real 4-day form in the counties, I actually think its a premature call up.

Just because two players are playing in their domestic set up does not mean that they should take them in.
What about the actual English players? Vikram Solanki?
And for that matter, I don't accept the "we all know what the England selectors are like" argument. I mean you are just apologising for them.
Its all right for them to be wasteful and with their own talent but ICC's fault if they plunder the international talent pool of other nations and waste them?
That makes no sense to me.

The bottom line in the Joyce case is that he has Significantly better averages over unlimited overs, if anyone should be getting a look in its him.

djimi

Ill agree with you in that Morgans call up is slightly premature in that his CC form hasnt been wonderful, but the reality is the he is the form player in the England set up at the moment, he is an exciting dynamic player that shone in a side that just won an international tournament (and I dont believe for a second that KP was man of the tournament; Eoin deserved that award far more than KP did) and I cant see any way that, on current form, they could overlook him. I think they are approaching him in the same way they approached KP in 2004.

And like it or not, Ed Joyce and Eoin Morgan are not in the "international pool of talent"; they have chosen to qualify to play for England and have declared themselves available to play for England, and the ECB are just as entitled to select them as they are to select Cook or Strauss. Whether or not England should or should not be selecting English born players is irrelevant, they have a pool of players they can pick from, Joyce and Morgan are in that pool, so pick them they can. The ECB are always going to do what they deem best for English cricket; they have no responsibility to Irish cricket no more than they do to any other country. Do you honestly think that if roles were reversed and a player as good as Morgan landed on our doorstep from foreign lands that we wouldnt select him at the first opportunity?

How they treat them is a different matter, and as a long time supporter of England cricket I despair at the way they have treated some very talented players throughout the years, but the reality of the situation is that Joyce and Morgan are theirs to select and play as they see fit, and unfortunately the risk is always there that they might not make it into the test side as Joyce has found out. There is always the chance that any player starting out at international level might not make it, for whatever reason, the only difference for our lads being that the consequences of not making it are far more severe than for English born players.

Im not defending everything the ECB does, and Im certainly not defending the way that they ultimately treated Joyce, but I am prepared to be realistic enough to be able to say that they are not at fault for selecting our players if our players do everything in their power to be selected to play for England. Its not like they are sneaking over here in the middle of the night and kidnapping them out of their beds and forcing them into England shirts...

d'Oracle

djimi wrote: »

And like it or not, Ed Joyce and Eoin Morgan are not in the "international pool of talent"; they have chosen to qualify to play for England and have declared themselves available to play for England, and the ECB are just as entitled to select them as they are to select Cook or Strauss. Whether or not England should or should not be selecting English born players is irrelevant, they have a pool of players they can pick from, Joyce and Morgan are in that pool, so pick them they can. The ECB are always going to do what they deem best for English cricket; they have no responsibility to Irish cricket no more than they do to any other country. Do you honestly think that if roles were reversed and a player as good as Morgan landed on our doorstep from foreign lands that we wouldnt select him at the first opportunity?

I think you misunderstand me here.
They were in our pool of talent for internationals. By virtue of being born here and having been selected for internationals.

There is absolutely no way in hell these two players just upped and declared for England one day just because they thought they were good enough. They were approached by England before they declared. There is no way a player would just declare for England out of the blue, it would be pointless unless they knew they would get a shot.

If the roles were reversed nobody would declare for an affiliate over a test nation. That is the most irrelevant argument that one could produce. It falls down for the exact reason there is a problem to begin with. It simply does not hold any worth as an argument.

I mean your point was that its the ICC to blame.
ECB as full members are part of the ICC. They have a responsibility to promote and develop the game of cricket.

djimi wrote: »

Im not defending everything the ECB does, and Im certainly not defending the way that they ultimately treated Joyce, but I am prepared to be realistic enough to be able to say that they are not at fault for selecting our players if our players do everything in their power to be selected to play for England. Its not like they are sneaking over here in the middle of the night and kidnapping them out of their beds and forcing them into England shirts...

The core of our team play county cricket so they can make money playing cricket not so they can play for England. England dangle the carrot out there, who would say no? I flat refuse to blame the players.

Bobo148

d'Oracle wrote: »

There is absolutely no way in hell these two players just upped and declared for England one day just because they thought they were good enough. They were approached by England before they declared. There is no way a player would just declare for England out of the blue, it would be pointless unless they knew they would get a shot.

Sorry, this paragraph is simply untrue.

If you believe this then your understanding of the situation is flawed.

djimi

d'Oracle wrote: »

There is absolutely no way in hell these two players just upped and declared for England one day just because they thought they were good enough. They were approached by England before they declared. There is no way a player would just declare for England out of the blue, it would be pointless unless they knew they would get a shot.

Okay just to clear this one thing up straight away; Eoin Morgan and Ed Joyce declared to play for England because they wanted to play test cricket, the pinnacle of the game of cricket, something that they could not do with Ireland. Both have said as much on numerous occasions. I dont know if England approached them before they declared, maybe they did or maybe they didnt, but the reality is that they were the ones that declared themselves available to play for England - it was their decision and it was one that was taken consciously knowing it would mean that they would not be available to play for Ireland again.

Im not blaming the players for doing this, if I was in their position Id do exactly the same thing if it meant a chance to play test cricket, but you cannot come on here and make out like the ECB is some big bad wolf who bundled them into a van on their way home from training some night and forced them into England shirts; they approached the ECB and said that they wanted to play for England, and they were duely selected. Do I wish the ECB would stay away from our players, of course I do, but the reality is that until the day when Ireland is a test playing nation any decent player with the ambition to play the game at the highest level is going to be tempted by the lure of declaring for England. Its a dreadful situation for us to be in, but thats the way it is.

d'Oracle

djimi wrote: »

Im not blaming the players for doing this, if I was in their position Id do exactly the same thing if it meant a chance to play test cricket, but you cannot come on here and make out like the ECB is some big bad wolf who bundled them into a van on their way home from training some night and forced them into England shirts; they approached the ECB and said that they wanted to play for England, and they were duely selected. Do I wish the ECB would stay away from our players, of course I do, but the reality is that until the day when Ireland is a test playing nation any decent player with the ambition to play the game at the highest level is going to be tempted by the lure of declaring for England. Its a dreadful situation for us to be in, but thats the way it is.

In fairness you have said that twice and I have said nothing of the sort.
I have simply suggested that England strategy of continually selecting from foreign player pools is wrong and damaging Irelands chances.

If England aren't actively pursuing players foreign players then why did they whisk Boyd Rankin off to a pace bowling camp? It is of course a possibility that they are doing that for the good of the game, but I don't think so.

I think its pretty naive to think that they just approached the England and got swift call ups.

TrueDub

d'Oracle wrote: »

If England aren't actively pursuing players foreign players then why did they whisk Boyd Rankin off to a pace bowling camp? It is of course a possibility that they are doing that for the good of the game, but I don't think so.

Boyd Rankin is eligible to play for England straight away, as he's a citizen of the UK, and doesn't have to serve a residency period. Therefore, the ECB would see him as part of "their" talent pool too, just as they saw Gavin Hamilton before.

d'Oracle wrote: »

I think its pretty naive to think that they just approached the England and got swift call ups.

Possibly, but you can't state something "definitely" happened without providing some evidence?

d'Oracle

TrueDub wrote: »

Boyd Rankin is eligible to play for England straight away, as he's a citizen of the UK, and doesn't have to serve a residency period. Therefore, the ECB would see him as part of "their" talent pool too, just as they saw Gavin Hamilton before.

This only serves to reinforce my point.

TrueDub

d'Oracle wrote: »

This only serves to reinforce my point.

How? He's not a foreign player, according to the eligibility rules, he's eligible to play for England tomorrow if they want to pick him, and has been eligible since he was born.

d'Oracle

TrueDub wrote: »

How? He's not a foreign player, according to the eligibility rules, he's eligible to play for England tomorrow if they want to pick him, and has been eligible since he was born.

He plays for Ireland.
And he is not from England or Wales.

It isn't the UKCB.
By selecting him for development programmes, they are showing disdain for the development of the Irish game

TrueDub

d'Oracle wrote: »

He plays for Ireland.
And he is not from England or Wales.

It isn't the UKCB.
By selecting him for development programmes, they are showing disdain for the development of the Irish game

The eligibility criteria say that anyone born in the UK is eligible to play for England - be they from Scotland, England, Wales or Northern Ireland. Regardless of who a player plays for, they're eligible.

Development of the Irish game is not a priority of the ECB. They don't have to worry about that, that's Cricket Ireland's responsibility.

djimi

TrueDub wrote: »

Development of the Irish game is not a priority of the ECB. They don't have to worry about that, that's Cricket Ireland's responsibility.

This is exactly the point that I have been trying to make; the ECB have one thing in mind and that is developing English cricket. If Irish cricketers, no more than South Africans, Australians, West Indians or anyone else, want to go thru the 4 year residency qualification period and declare themselves available for England, then if they are good enough they will select them. Do you really think that they were going to have a player as good as Eoin Morgan eligible and willing for selection only for them to turn around and say "well it would be bad for the Irish game if we pick him so we wont"? Get real.

Ive been accused of being naive in this thread, well I think its naive to think that the ECB give or should give two hoots about the Irish game when it comes to selecting our players, no more than they give two hoots about South African cricket when they select Kevin Pietersen, Jonathan Trott or Craig Kiesswetter. In an ideal world they would only stick to selecting English born players and leave our players alone, but in this world they are only interested in their own game. Whinge about it all you like but right or wrong thats the way it is.

Memnoch

I don't care about the ECB. I think the rules are wrong and it should be down to the ICC to stop them. The way I see it, once a player plays for a country, that's it.

So if Joyce, Morgan et all wanted to play for England, then they should have done so without ever being part of the Irish set up, same goes for Nannes and Australia. Players should be forced to make a choice and stick with it, not just use the smaller countries to gain noteriety and then jump ship when their star rises, otherwise the game will never develop in the associate nations like Ireland if all our best players keep "choosing" to play for England.

Ofc the ECB are scum and will have no qualms about exploiting this loophole.

d'Oracle

djimi wrote: »

Ive been accused of being naive in this thread, well I think its naive to think that the ECB give or should give two hoots about the Irish game when it comes to selecting our players, no more than they give two hoots about South African cricket when they select Kevin Pietersen, Jonathan Trott or Craig Kiesswetter. In an ideal world they would only stick to selecting English born players and leave our players alone, but in this world they are only interested in their own game. Whinge about it all you like but right or wrong thats the way it is.

Fair enough.

But if the Full members do not give a hoot and the ICC is comprised of full members, then The ICC does not give a hoot. Ergo Ireland remains the other county.

Also, I don't think the south african comparison is in anyway valid as (bar pietersen) those players wouldn't get a look in at the Proteas and they know it. England don't take our below standard players.

d'Oracle

TrueDub wrote: »

The eligibility criteria say that anyone born in the UK is eligible to play for England - be they from Scotland, England, Wales or Northern Ireland. Regardless of who a player plays for, they're eligible.

Thats not actually True Dub. (see that? Comedy Gold.)
A player has to be born in England or Wales OR resident in England or Wales for 4 years to be eligible. Round Page 21.

http://static.ecb.co.uk/files/2356-fc-regsgovqualification-2010-p309-352-lr-10984.pdf

djimi

d'Oracle wrote: »

Fair enough.

But if the Full members do not give a hoot and the ICC is comprised of full members, then The ICC does not give a hoot. Ergo Ireland remains the other county.

Also, I don't think the south african comparison is in anyway valid as (bar pietersen) those players wouldn't get a look in at the Proteas and they know it. England don't take our below standard players.

And therein lies the root of our problem! Its pretty evident that the ICC have little or no interest in developing test cricket beyond the ten teams it currently has, and until that attitude changes we are going nowhere fast. Whether our players declare for England or not is not going to change the archaic attitude of the ICC when it comes to associate members. Im pretty sure if we had won the world cup in 2007 little or nothing would have changed...

TrueDub

d'Oracle wrote: »

Thats not actually True Dub. (see that? Comedy Gold.)
A player has to be born in England or Wales OR resident in England or Wales for 4 years to be eligible. Round Page 21.

http://static.ecb.co.uk/files/2356-fc-regsgovqualification-2010-p309-352-lr-10984.pdf

I stand corrected - thanks for that.

I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree on the main thrust of the argument though. We need to work within the state of play as it currently is, and all the complaining and protestations of injustice in the world won't change things.

d'Oracle

TrueDub wrote: »

I stand corrected - thanks for that.

I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree on the main thrust of the argument though. We need to work within the state of play as it currently is, and all the complaining and protestations of injustice in the world won't change things.

They make me feel better.
I am a small man in some ways, a very small man.

TrueDub

d'Oracle wrote: »

They make me feel better.
I am a small man in some ways, a very small man.

You're being very harsh on yourself - if injustices aren't pointed out, they'll never be dealt with. However, practicality comes into it eventually.

djimi

d'Oracle wrote: »

Thats not actually True Dub. (see that? Comedy Gold.)
A player has to be born in England or Wales OR resident in England or Wales for 4 years to be eligible. Round Page 21.

http://static.ecb.co.uk/files/2356-fc-regsgovqualification-2010-p309-352-lr-10984.pdf

Thats interesting actually; the general consensus about Boyd has always been that he is eligible to play for England as he is born in Northern Ireland and therefore a UK citizen. That seems to contradict that thinking.

Then again it also states that

A Cricketer will only be
qualified to play for England in a Test Match or in a One
Day International Match or International Twenty20
Match if:
(a) he is either a British citizen or an Irish citizen...

and Im pretty sure that rules out several players currently in the test and ODI squads! Im guessing that the "Subject to the overriding discretion of the ECB, acting with the consent of the ICC" basically means that the ICC wont stand in their way and just let them get on with it.

d'Oracle

djimi wrote: »

and Im pretty sure that rules out several players currently in the test and ODI squads! Im guessing that the "Subject to the overriding discretion of the ECB, acting with the consent of the ICC" basically means that the ICC wont stand in their way and just let them get on with it.

There is an "or" immediately after that which concerns the 4 year residency rule. (I think) Even the Keiswetters and Pietersens did that.

djimi

The way I read it you have to be a British or Irish citizen and either be born in England or Wales or else go thru the residency period.

(a) he is either a British citizen or an Irish citizen; and
either (i) he was born within England and Wales;
or (ii) he has been resident in England and Wales for the
immediately preceding four consecutive years;

d'Oracle

djimi wrote: »

The way I read it you have to be a British or Irish citizen and either be born in England or Wales or else go thru the residency period.

Ah right, sorry I misunderstood you.