to those who used countmeout.ie

branie

did you encounter parental opposition, when you told them of your intention to leave the church?

ColmDawson

No, I encountered interest and approval, for which I'm thankful.

Daftendirekt

Not everyone who uses countmeout.ie lives with their parents.

Dr. Loon

No, I'm an adult. I make my own decisions.

MrStuffins

Are there administrative or tangible reasons why people NEED to leave the RCC?

I used to be a scout. I went through the application and joining process, but i never went through a ritual to leave, so am i still a Boy Scout?

I actually don't see a point. The whole belief system is imaginary, so why would it matter if a priest poured water on me as a child or not?

Daftendirekt

MrStuffins wrote: »

Are there administrative or tangible reasons why people NEED to leave the RCC?

I used to be a scout. I went through the application and joining process, but i never went through a ritual to leave, so am i still a Boy Scout?

I actually don't see a point. The whole belief system is imaginary, so why would it matter if a priest poured water on me as a child or not?

It's a personal thing.

I'd be of the same mindset as you, but I can see why someone would want to symbolically sever their ties with Catholicism, particularly if they were devout believers at one point.

Neil3030

It's not just about you though. On an individual basis, departing the church sends them a message. On a collective basis, people departing the church sends society a message.

MrStuffins

Daftendirekt wrote: »

It's a personal thing.

I'd be of the same mindset as you, but I can see why someone would want to symbolically sever their ties with Catholicism, particularly if they were devout believers at one point.

Oh i absolutely agree with that. But is there any kind of administrative advantage to be gained by leaving? Do i get more Tax Credits?

Coz that'd be super

Daftendirekt

MrStuffins wrote: »

Oh i absolutely agree with that. But is there any kind of administrative advantage to be gained by leaving? Do i get more Tax Credits?

Coz that'd be super

Nah, you just get a one way ticket to hell .

axer

MrStuffins wrote: »

Are there administrative or tangible reasons why people NEED to leave the RCC?

I used to be a scout. I went through the application and joining process, but i never went through a ritual to leave, so am i still a Boy Scout?

I actually don't see a point. The whole belief system is imaginary, so why would it matter if a priest poured water on me as a child or not?

It also a brainwashing thing. I was brainwashed by the RCC since I was a child like many others. I think defecting from the church gave me a peace of mind of sorts, kinda like telling my mind that I now have nothing to do with that organisation. The final snip of the scissors so to speak.

OP, my mother was not happy that I defected but couldn't say why - was really just an irrational "thats not right" moment from her. She wasn't happy that she had inadvertently paid for the stamp that was used for defecting. My father was forced to have a word with me but that didnt go far considering they had no reasons that they could give me to stay in the church as an unbeliever.

They fully accept it now and really they didn't give me any grief which I am thankful about. For them it was the shock and it not seeming "right" that got them - down to their brainwashed childhood too I would think.

Dr. Loon

MrStuffins wrote: »

Are there administrative or tangible reasons why people NEED to leave the RCC?

I used to be a scout. I went through the application and joining process, but i never went through a ritual to leave, so am i still a Boy Scout?

I actually don't see a point. The whole belief system is imaginary, so why would it matter if a priest poured water on me as a child or not?

My tangible reason was not wanting to be associated with an organisation renound for paedophilia. As has been mentioned also, it's about sending a message. The more people that send that message the better. There's probably thousands upon thousands who are counted as part of the church, but have no belief in it or religion whatsoever. If they left, the church would get a wake up call, which I reckon it needs.

Administrative? No.

robindch

Dr. Loon wrote: »

There's probably thousands upon thousands who are counted as part of the church, but have no belief in it or religion whatsoever. If they left, the church would get a wake up call, which I reckon it needs.

If they left, the church would stop existing.

I'll be doing my own countmeout the day my kid has her place confirmed in a nonreligious primary school.

Dr. Loon

robindch wrote: »

If they left, the church would stop existing.

Exactly, or at least be reduced enough to have to change the entire ogranisation. A complete rebuild, which could either be great, or terrible.

20goto10

robindch wrote: »

If they left, the church would stop existing.

I'll be doing my own countmeout the day my kid has her place confirmed in a nonreligious primary school.

The problem is schools. The majority of people I know, actually 100% of people I know get their kids baptised to get them into school. Personally I'd rather emigrate than get my kid baptised just to get him into school.

I haven't felt any need to officially leave the church until now, I can hardly argue why I'm not baptising my kid when I myself am still a catholic.

Neil3030

20goto10 wrote: »

The problem is schools. The majority of people I know, actually 100% of people I know get their kids baptised to get them into school. Personally I'd rather emigrate than get my kid baptised just to get him into school.

I haven't felt any need to officially leave the church until now, I can hardly argue why I'm not baptising my kid when I myself am still a catholic.

Obviously this is an appreciable concern for parents, but there are very few schools that would insist on a child being baptised in order to admit them. I'd say that unless you're trying to get your child into a school specifically run by a religious order, you won't have any difficulty enrolling a non-denominated child.

20goto10

Neil3030 wrote: »

Obviously this is an appreciable concern for parents, but there are very few schools that would insist on a child being baptised in order to admit them. I'd say that unless you're trying to get your child into a school specifically run by a religious order, you won't have any difficulty enrolling a non-denominated child.

I have a choice of one school in my area and another one about 4 or 5 km away. If I don't get choice 1 I'll have to move because the commute to the other is not realistic. If I have to move to get my child into school then it will be to another country.

jasonb

Just curious, exactly how official is the countmeout.ie website? Is it the 'proper' way to leave the Catholic Church? Does the Church recognise the website and whatever notification the website sends to the Catholic Church?

I heard recently that the Church announced how much they've grown recently, but most of the growth was in Africa, with very little growth in Europe. I was wondering if the Church takes the amount of people who've left into account with these figures, or is it just a case of you're 'a Catholic the moment Dad came' and as far as the Church is concerned you never leave?

J.

axer

jasonb wrote: »

Just curious, exactly how official is the countmeout.ie website? Is it the 'proper' way to leave the Catholic Church? Does the Church recognise the website and whatever notification the website sends to the Catholic Church?
J.

It just generates a letter for you which you still send via post.

jasonb

Thanks for your reply. I made the mistake of asking questions before looking into it myself. 10 mins on the countmeout.ie website has pretty much answered everything I needed to know. Thanks!

J.

MrStuffins

jasonb wrote: »

Thanks for your reply. I made the mistake of asking questions before looking into it myself. 10 mins on the countmeout.ie website has pretty much answered everything I needed to know. Thanks!

J.

Don't worry about it dude! Sure, now you're no longer a Creationist, it's ok for you to question things again :pac:

Neil3030

20goto10 wrote: »

I have a choice of one school in my area and another one about 4 or 5 km away. If I don't get choice 1 I'll have to move because the commute to the other is not realistic. If I have to move to get my child into school then it will be to another country.

I'm assuming your kid is just starting school, yeah? What type of school is your local one? If it is a national school there should be absolutely no issue with your child not being baptised. However if it is a private denominational school, then you may be in trouble.

20goto10

Neil3030 wrote: »

I'm assuming your kid is just starting school, yeah? What type of school is your local one? If it is a national school there should be absolutely no issue with your child not being baptised. However if it is a private denominational school, then you may be in trouble.

No he's only just born :-) They've started taking enrollments for 2014 already. The local one is a national Gael Scoil. They didn't ask about childs religion or baptisim cert on the application form so thats ok. But not comfortable with him learning through Irish, but it's basically a choice between get him baptised or send him to this Gael Scoil. Like I've said, nothing will make me baptise my kid so this is the only school he can go to. That alone is a total scandal...but does anyone care? Not at all. Atheist b@stards that we are.

Every other school except for the eduacate together (which is the one miles away) are either Catholic or Protestant.

MrStuffins

20goto10 wrote: »

No he's only just born :-) They've started taking enrollments for 2014 already. The local one is a national Gael Scoil. They didn't ask about childs religion or baptisim cert on the application form so thats ok. But not comfortable with him learning through Irish, but it's basically a choice between get him baptised or send him to this Gael Scoil. Like I've said, nothing will make me baptise my kid so this is the only school he can go to. That alone is a total scandal...but does anyone care? Not at all. Atheist b@stards that we are.

Every other school except for the eduacate together (which is the one miles away) are either Catholic or Protestant.

Is it still actually legal to discriminate against a child due to their religion? Can a school turn away a child if they are Muslim? Can they turn away a child because they are black?

Neil3030

MrStuffins wrote: »

Is it still actually legal to discriminate against a child due to their religion? Can a school turn away a child if they are Muslim? Can they turn away a child because they are black?

It's a grey area that will eventually lead to the Department of Education being taken to court. Essentially, the way nationally funded schools work is through a capitation grant per-child-enrolled in the school. Teachers are also allocated contingent on pupil numbers. So state schools will never turn away a child based on religion, because it would cost them both in terms of staff and funding in the long run.

However, the conflict arises once schools reach their "capacity." In the majority of such cases, a school will exert preference to siblings of children already enrolled and thereafter to religious affiliation. After that, there may be a lottery or a first-come-first served allocation of places.

Each school will have its own enrolment policy for situations where the school has reached capacity enrolment for an ensuing year. My understanding is that these enrolment policies are drafted by the board of management, which will often include the local parish priest, hence the preference given to religious affiliation, sometimes over and above siblings in the school.

But since the enrolment policy only comes into effect when the numbers reach capacity, there should be no preference given to religious affiliation until such an instance that the school is full for the incoming year.

robindch

MrStuffins wrote: »

Is it still actually legal to discriminate against a child due to their religion? Can a school turn away a child if they are Muslim? Can they turn away a child because they are black?

Dark-skinned!? Good heavens -- no! For that would be racism and racism is a Bad Thing.

Instead, if it wishes to, the religiously-aligned board which controls access to the school can notice that the child concerned is of the wrong religion, and can let the child's application slip to the bottom of the pile, there to be out-ranked by those of kids of parents who belong to religions more acceptable to the religious board. And who are fortunate enough to have applied after the outsider.

This disgracefully discriminatory practice is explicitly permitted by the Section 7, subsection (3.c) of the Equal Status Act, 2000.

MrStuffins

Thanks for the replies, i'm learning a lot from this thread.

Galvasean

I downloaded the form ages ago but have yet to print it/send it away.

sonicthebadger*

Neil3030 wrote: »

Obviously this is an appreciable concern for parents, but there are very few schools that would insist on a child being baptised in order to admit them. I'd say that unless you're trying to get your child into a school specifically run by a religious order, you won't have any difficulty enrolling a non-denominated child.

True, that's only about 90% of the schools in Ireland then. No worries!

Galvasean

I believe its 92% actually.

magicbastarder

one thing to bear in mind is that the church will not destroy any documentation relating to your baptism; i've heard of a few people who have requested that all references to their baptism be removed, but the church (rightly) refuses to do this, as the baptismal roll is essentially an historical document.

Galvasean

Plus can't be showing the world that people are leaving your Church. Especially when the likes of David Quinn need to pluck statistics out of their butts.

20goto10

MrStuffins wrote: »

Is it still actually legal to discriminate against a child due to their religion?

Absolutely. Preference is to catholic children and in some cases a baptism cert must be provided. It's clear and blatant discrimination which is supported by the state.

20goto10

magicbastarder wrote: »

one thing to bear in mind is that the church will not destroy any documentation relating to your baptism; i've heard of a few people who have requested that all references to their baptism be removed, but the church (rightly) refuses to do this, as the baptismal roll is essentially an historical document.

Does the data protection act not cover that? Surely if you request to have it removed they must do so?

Coriolanus

20goto10 wrote: »

Does the data protection act not cover that? Surely if you request to have it removed they must do so?

No, it's a record of a historical event. You were baptised, even if you later repudiate the act.

I don't really mind that though, for anyone who's ever done genealogy research, the Church records are fabulous rescources.

checkyabadself

To answer the original question, yes I had a terrible expierience when my father became aware of my leaving the church officially(the story is posted in another thread on here somewhere).
Long story short, he flipped and told me I was no longer welcome in his house as he wouldn't have an atheist under his roof.
Three and a half months later he tried phoning me. He kept calling and a couple of times on the day of my birthday. I gave in and answered the call and he said he was sorry for acting like a fool. He didn't discuss the issue of religion or want any insight into my decision to leave he church. I didn't comment on it or attempt to approach he topic as I felt the apology was a little hollow and only given due to pressure from other family members who missed me calling to the parents house, which I wouldve visited weekly.

I have visited twice in total since the incident, say around 4 months as I feel we don't really have a relationship anymore. I'm not bitter in anyway about how the whole incident played out, just dismayed and a little dissappointed at the realisation that we'll probably never see eye to eye.

It was a shock to me as I really thought my post in this type of thread would have mirrored the people who said " no problems at all, my family was cool about it". It just goes to show, until you put your money where your mouth is you may never see someones true colours.

El Tarangu

20goto10 wrote: »

No he's only just born :-) They've started taking enrollments for 2014 already. The local one is a national Gael Scoil. They didn't ask about childs religion or baptisim cert on the application form so thats ok. But not comfortable with him learning through Irish, but it's basically a choice between get him baptised or send him to this Gael Scoil. Like I've said, nothing will make me baptise my kid so this is the only school he can go to. That alone is a total scandal...but does anyone care? Not at all. Atheist b@stards that we are.

Every other school except for the eduacate together (which is the one miles away) are either Catholic or Protestant.

This is very OT, but even if you aren't really keen on the Gaeilge yourself, going to an all-Irish national school can have a lot of practical benefits for a kid. I attended one, and didn't have make any effort in Irish class pretty much the whole way through secondary school. So whilst everyone else was struggling with the tuiseal ginideach, I could concentrate on studying other subjects

Just my two cents

20goto10

El Tarangu wrote: »

This is very OT, but even if you aren't really keen on the Gaeilge yourself, going to an all-Irish national school can have a lot of practical benefits for a kid. I attended one, and didn't have make any effort in Irish class pretty much the whole way through secondary school. So whilst everyone else was struggling with the tuiseal ginideach, I could concentrate on studying other subjects

Just my two cents

Which bit is OTT? Do you not believe that schools discriminate based on religion? I'm afraid it's a fact, this is not just my opinion.

My preference is for an English speaking school. I've nothing against Irish schools or the language, I just can't speak it and have never had any connection with it so I don't see the sense in sending my kid to one.

My point is, and this is not OTT, I think its an absolute outrage that I am surrounded by schools and will find it difficult to get my kid into one based on religion. This country needs to be brought kicking and screaming into the 21st century. And to get back on topic, I totally agree everyone should officially leave the Catholic Church so that the government can realise not everyone is a Catholic. Everyone knows the vast majority of people are baptised simply to get into school, take that necessity away and the Catholic church will dwindle.

ColmDawson

OT = Off Topic
OTT = Over The Top

20goto10

OK thanks...Apoligies to El Tarangu for misinterpreting his post. Slightly off topic, but not really as most people are baptised simply to get into school.

El Tarangu

Quite alright, 20goto10.

And most Gaeilscoileanna tend to really buy into the Catholicism malarkey, so you're probably making the right choice.

Personally, if I had kids, I'd do my best to get them into an Educate Together school. However, if there was a very good in the area that happened to have a Catholic/Christian ethos, I wouldn't have too many compunctions about sending my kids there. I went to a very Catholic orientated primary school, and then a slightly less religiously orientated Christian Brothers secondary school, and it didn't do me any harm (or good, depending on your preference)*

*I'm not suggesting that parents should just put up with having to send kids to religious schools that don't reflect their views - I'm not. I'm just saying that given that the vast majority of schools in this country are religious-run, chances are that a lot atheists/agnostics will end up sending their kids to Catholic schools through necessity, but that this doesn't necessarily mean that it will stick

eblistic

checkyabadself wrote: »

To answer the original question, yes I had a terrible expierience when my father became aware of my leaving the church officially...

This is a very sad story. I hope you can find some peace with your father.

After I left officially I didn't bother discussing it with older generations. Figured it was none of their business. It came to a head, though, when I had to explain why we were not baptising our child. I don't want to go into details but ugly scenes and complicated repercussions followed.

On the whole, though, I found a surprising amount of peace of mind from cleanly and clearly cutting ties with the church. I'd left a long time ago anyway. I have no regrets.

NothingMan

My family were a bit miffed. My brother was the funniest, "I don't believe in God either, but you still have to get your kid baptised". It's so embedded in us that some people can't comprehend it. My Mam is very relaxed and understood why and i'd probably give her a headache if she tried to argue against me.

Not sure how my Dad would react, we're only back in contact recently and he doesn't know. But his daughter was baptised at 3 so I reckon that may have been for school reasons so I'd say he's the same as me but I could be wrong.

Galvasean wrote: »

I downloaded the form ages ago but have yet to print it/send it away.

I sent the forms initially through fax, way easier. The Archbishops office always responded by snail mail, but I always replied through email. So it all happened very quickly.

magicbastarder wrote: »

one thing to bear in mind is that the church will not destroy any documentation relating to your baptism; i've heard of a few people who have requested that all references to their baptism be removed, but the church (rightly) refuses to do this, as the baptismal roll is essentially an historical document.

They didn't remove my baptismal cert but they mark the original as "defected as of **/**/****" so that's good enough for me. They recognise my choice although they don't agree with it.

Throughout the whole process my letters from the Archbishop and his Deacon were extremely friendly, offering a discussion before processing the request and even after I had completed the process.

Zombrex

Daftendirekt wrote: »

Not everyone who uses countmeout.ie lives with their parents.

what ever! I do what I want!