Gun ownership & crime

rmagfhloinn84

Hi folks,

I'm a student thinking about conducting research on a link between firearm ownership in this country and fear of crime for a dissertation. I realise that the circumstances are different over here regarding ownership laws and perhaps even cultural attitudes towards guns. However, I thought it might be interesting all the same, seeing as reporting of violent crimes in Ireland seems almost at saturation point. I figure most of you shoot for sport but would wariness and a desire for self-protection have had an influence on any of you? Any answers would help a lot! Thanks.

juice1304

rmagfhloinn84 wrote: »

Hi folks,

I figure most of you shoot for sport but would wariness and a desire for self-protection have had an influence on any of you? Any answers would help a lot! Thanks.

protect myself from what the boogie-man, if someone were to brake into my house why run the risk of killing someone, letting the scum know there is a gun in the house which he might want to come back and get another time or loose my license when i have my trusty bat.

Sparks

rmagfhloinn84 wrote: »

I figure most of you shoot for sport but would wariness and a desire for self-protection have had an influence on any of you? Any answers would help a lot! Thanks.

To put it bluntly, it is not permitted in Ireland to own a firearm for self defence or defence of property. Firearms are owned for various reasons (hunting, target shooting, vermin control and so forth), but self-defence is not a permissible reason and anyone stating they wanted a firearm for that purpose would be refused a licence outright.

In Northern Ireland, there have been exceptions, but that's a different jurisdiction; I'll leave it to any of our NI posters to comment on that since I don't know the legislation sufficiently to do so.

Mostly, the effect that fear of gun crime has on firearms ownership here is in prompting political action against firearms ownership (since it's easier to ban legally held firearms than it is to deal with the illegally held ones being used in crime). You might be interested in reading through the recent research highlighted in the Irish Times recently which pointed out that the recent changes in firearms legislation have had no effect on crime rates:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0517/1224270550474.html

BTW, I would point you towards the first rule in the forum charter, if you wouldn't mind - RKBA is permanently off-topic in here.

Sparks

I think we need to nix the second half of that rmagfhloinn - discussing RKBA is off-topic in this forum. You might take it up elsewhere, but this forum is for shooting sports and sport shooting; not self-defence shooting.

rowa

i thought several high profile business people had legally held pistols during the madness in the north ?
e.g ben dunne , don tidy etc ? or am i mistaken ?

Tackleberrywho

rmagfhloinn84 wrote: »

Hi folks,

I'm a student thinking about conducting research on a link between firearm ownership in this country and fear of crime for a dissertation. I realise that the circumstances are different over here regarding ownership laws and perhaps even cultural attitudes towards guns. However, I thought it might be interesting all the same, seeing as reporting of violent crimes in Ireland seems almost at saturation point. I figure most of you shoot for sport but would wariness and a desire for self-protection have had an influence on any of you? Any answers would help a lot! Thanks.

You should do it on keeping cash in the mattress rather than the bank.
What were the options for your dissertation? One would think a masters student would have way more interesting subject matter to pick from.

I would go back to what ever Department you are in and ask them for another subject matter.

meathshooter1

rowa wrote: »

i thought several high profile business people had legally held pistols during the madness in the north ?
e.g ben dunne , don tidy etc ? or am i mistaken ?

where not meant to know that and or course it would be refuted if ever said,dont forget this is Ireland 1 law for the rich BUT WE KNOW DIFFERENT

Rovi

OP, please bear in mind that while pretty much no-one here uses their 'real name' to post, many of the 'regulars' are known to each other in the real world to various degrees. Almost certainly, the real-world identity of many regulars here is also known to 'interested' people within the Dept. of Justice, the Gardai, and who knows who else.
Given that in this jurisdiction, publicly expressing an interest in or intention to use a firearm for self defence or the defence of property will very likely count as a very black mark against your future (and current!) legal ownership of firearms, don't expect the legal shooting community to be very forthcoming on the subject.

Your question might garner more forthright responses in Humanities or perhaps Philosophy, and would most certainly attract lots of comment in After Hours, but it's most unlikely that you'll get anyone active in the shooting sports to publicly state anything on the subject.

rowa

meathshooter1 wrote: »

where not meant to know that and or course it would be refuted if ever said,dont forget this is Ireland 1 law for the rich BUT WE KNOW DIFFERENT

i thought there was another class of firearms under the law that were only available if granted by the minister of justice personally ,

maybe another dessertation would be the situation in the uk ? handguns and many types of actions banned (eg semi-auto and pump centrefires) in 1996 and gun crime rises 300%.

Sparks

rowa wrote: »

i thought there was another class of firearms under the law that were only available if granted by the minister of justice personally ,

Anything under Class A in the EU categorisation would fall under that description allright - you'd need special legislation or special permission for those (they're mainly fully auto firearms from what I remember off the top of my head).

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

Anything under Class A in the EU categorisation would fall under that description allright - you'd need special legislation or special permission for those (they're mainly fully auto firearms from what I remember off the top of my head).

but would that include a high profile business person looking for a personal protection revolver/pistol ? especially one in the know with the powers that be ?

Tackleberrywho

Rovi wrote: »

OP, please bear in mind that while pretty much no-one here uses their 'real name' to post, many of the 'regulars' are known to each other in the real world to various degrees. Almost certainly, the real-world identity of many regulars here is also known to 'interested' people within the Dept. of Justice, the Gardai, and who knows who else.
Given that in this jurisdiction, publicly expressing an interest in or intention to use a firearm for self defence or the defence of property will very likely count as a very black mark against your future (and current!) legal ownership of firearms, don't expect the legal shooting community to be very forthcoming on the subject.

Your question might garner more forthright responses in Humanities or perhaps Philosophy, and would most certainly attract lots of comment in After Hours, but it's most unlikely that you'll get anyone active in the shooting sports to publicly state anything on the subject.

Reminds me of a convo I had years ago when years ago;a garda told me a friend of his reloaded his own ammo, and then he asked me "did I?".

I replied Sarge, Sur that's illegal isn't it? You should tell your friend that


I saw another colleague of his almost choke on his tea in the background trying not to laugh.

Sometimes we are paranoid, sometimes with just cause.
if I feel unsafe in my home I call the boys in blue!

I like this idea of posting under another name though, very Bruce wayne;)

meathshooter1

rowa wrote: »

i thought there was another class of firearms under the law that were only available if granted by the minister of justice personally ,

I think the high ranking Gardai can order it seen something last week on the telly about a civilian who used to work for CAB been issued one and trained in its use because of his stance on scumbags rightly so and I wouldn't have a problem with that.Have a close friend who worked the high end of close protection pop stars billionaires etc around the world including Ireland and he told me of one big businessman here who has 2 bodyguard's with hk mp5 with him all times in Ireland they are ex french foreign legion

endasmail

meathshooter1 wrote: »

rowa wrote: »

i thought there was another class of firearms under the law that were only available if granted by the minister of justice personally ,

I think the high ranking Gardai can order it seen something last week on the telly about a civilian who used to work for CAB been issued one and trained in its use because of his stance on scumbags rightly so and I wouldn't have a problem with that.Have a close friend who worked the high end of close protection pop stars billionaires etc around the world including Ireland and he told me of one big businessman here who has 2 bodyguard's with hk mp5 with him all times in Ireland they are ex french foreign legion

Galvin or so i think his name was
he was the top legal advisor for the CAB

rowa

so basically you can have a firearm for protection if you're wealthy , but not farmer living by yourself ?

BornToKill

Sparks wrote: »

You might be interested in reading through the recent research highlighted in the Irish Times recently which pointed out that the recent changes in firearms legislation have had no effect on crime rates

That's one observation alright. It doesn't address the central question, though, which is what happened over the last decade to cause the rate of gun killings in Ireland to become up to five times higher than that of E&W?

'She found that in 1998 gun killings in the Republic represented 7.8 per cent of all killings. In England and Wales that year gun killings represented 7.2 per cent of all killings. However, since then Ireland’s gun killing rate has leaped ahead of England and Wales. In 2008, for example, some 38.2 per cent of murders and manslaughters committed in the Republic involved firearms. During the same year, just 6.8 per cent of murders and manslaughters committed in England and Wales involved a firearm.'

Is it entirely coincidental that sweeping restrictions on handguns and semi-automatic firearms were introduced in Britain at just that time? Maybe, maybe not. It seems far more difficult to get hold of 'proper' handguns in England and what you see instead is converted gas/blank/starter pistols and reactivated firearms.

In any event, there are still too many licensed guns casually stored and easily stolen here - it's about 7 a week. Hopefully the new laws will reduce this.

meathshooter1

rowa wrote: »

so basically you can have a firearm for protection if you're wealthy , but not farmer living by yourself ?

acording to the commisioners guidelines thats the duty of AGS

meathshooter1

BornToKill wrote: »

That's one observation alright. It doesn't address the central question, though, which is what happened over the last decade to cause the rate of gun killings in Ireland to become up to five times higher than that of E&W?

'She found that in 1998 gun killings in the Republic represented 7.8 per cent of all killings. In England and Wales that year gun killings represented 7.2 per cent of all killings. However, since then Ireland’s gun killing rate has leaped ahead of England and Wales. In 2008, for example, some 38.2 per cent of murders and manslaughters committed in the Republic involved firearms. During the same year, just 6.8 per cent of murders and manslaughters committed in England and Wales involved a firearm.'

Is it entirely coincidental that sweeping restrictions on handguns and semi-automatic firearms were introduced in Britain at just that time? Maybe, maybe not. It seems far more difficult to get hold of 'proper' handguns in England and what you see instead is converted gas/blank/starter pistols and reactivated firearms.

In any event, there are still too many licensed guns casually stored and easily stolen here - it's about 7 a week. Hopefully the new laws will reduce this.

when you outlaw firearms only outlaws are left with firearms,and vast amount of illegal firearms are smuggled into Ireland also garda have had firearms stolen and the defence forces and have noting whatsoever to do with law abiding citizens. I also remember a study from a professor in glasgow and his findings where that the British ban had No Effect.NOW we see limited handguns been issued in Britain.

BornToKill

meathshooter1 wrote: »

when you outlaw firearms only outlaws are left with firearms

Right, and don't forget the other one 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people'. Meaningless NRA type clichés.

meathshooter1 wrote: »

...also garda have had firearms stolen and the defence forces and have noting whatsoever to do with law abiding citizens.'

Can you cite any instances where Garda or Army firearms were stolen and not recovered? Or where they were stolen and used in gun crime? Its not that it hasn't ever happened, but the reports tend to be greatly exaggerated.

meathshooter1 wrote: »

.I also remember a study from a professor in glasgow and his findings where that the British ban had No Effect.NOW we see limited handguns been issued in Britain.

Please, share the study. A link to it would be very helpful, or just the title/author's name. Clearly, there has been a divergence between gun crime experience in E&W and ROI. Love to see the Scottish experience.

Grizzly 45

rowa wrote: »

so basically you can have a firearm for protection if you're wealthy , but not farmer living by yourself ?

Not forgetting also if you are a politican!:rolleyes:.Remember Austin Currie??NI politican who moved down here,was issued a sidearm for personal defence and had it nicked in the 1980s??:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Ironically, the people who were avowing to overthrow the NI state and then the Republic by force of arms,since they have discoverd the path to peace is dialouge are the ones entitled to either firearms permits for self defence in the very same state they were avowing to take by force of arms a mere decade ago.
Only in Ireland.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I think the high ranking Gardai can order it seen something last week on the telly about a civilian who used to work for CAB been issued one and trained in its use because of his stance on scumbags rightly so and I wouldn't have a problem with that
So what makes these people any more different from us??Is it becuse they are in the" brotherhood of the Irish beuraccy" that they are somhow more trustworthy and their job,life and position is more important than ours?NO DEAL! They take their chances like the rest of us!We are supposedly all "equal " under the law here in Ireland,and that would be blatant favouritisim!
After all wasnt it trumpeted by the Gardai and Revenue that all those who work in CAB would be protected by the Gardai and Revenue at all times???

Have a close friend who worked the high end of close protection pop stars billionaires etc around the world including Ireland and he told me of one big businessman here who has 2 bodyguard's with hk mp5 with him all times in Ireland they are ex french foreign legion

MS,being in the same line of work,I have heard this story as well,and I put it in the file Urban myth of EP Ireland work .Again,it is never provable,like firearms insider info,it is outed by "operational reasons,confidentally ,etc"
I think there is a grain of fact in it,but I think setup as described isnt.;)

meathshooter1

BornToKill wrote: »

doesn't address the central question, though, which is what happened over the last decade to cause the rate of gun killings in Ireland to become up to five times higher than that of E&W?

Thats a simple one BTK Drugs .noting whatso ever to with law abiding firearms owners

Bananaman

To answer the OPs question

you could do your dissertation on firearms crime in Ireland but I would ask you to preface it with a review of the lawful use of firearms in Ireland as most people do not realise there is a difference

oh and please do not use this forum as a source of information - the tangental off-topic meanderings of this thread alone are a small example of how the oneupmanship and rumour mill on here turn hearsay to fact but there is invariably no coroboration

B'Man

BornToKill

meathshooter1 wrote: »

BornToKill wrote: »

hats a simple one BTK Drugs .noting whatso ever to with law abiding firearms owners

It's not that simple, though, is it? Are you saying there are is no drug trade in E&W and no associated criminal gangs? Because that's palpably not the case.

meathshooter1

Here BTK http://www.herald.ie/national-news/recover-stolen-garda-gun-at-all-costs-city-detectives-told-2027088.html
also grenades and we see rocket launchers last week in the hands of criminals AK47 thank god the garda got them BUT what else have they is this just the tip of the iceburg

rowa

BornToKill wrote: »

Can you cite any instances where Garda or Army firearms were stolen and not recovered? Or where they were stolen and used in gun crime? Its not that it hasn't ever happened, but the reports tend to be greatly exaggerated.

well there was the well reported case of a webley revolver which had been handed in or confiscated by the guards in the midlands , it somehow wound up in the rubbish bin and was found by someone who used it in an armed robbery , if someone was shot during the robbery , who would have been responsible ?

Grizzly 45

BornToKill wrote: »

Right, and don't forget the other one 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people'. Meaningless NRA type clichés.

Maybe cliches but unfortuneatly true!:)Inanimate objects and all that.

Can you cite any instances where Garda or Army firearms were stolen and not recovered? Or where they were stolen and used in gun crime? Its not that it hasn't ever happened, but the reports tend to be greatly exaggerated.

A sucide this year by an ex Garda SB man with a FA UZI? [Sucdie is still a crime here].Thank God he didnt decide to go postal down at the local burger joint.:eek:
Another a couple of years ago in the use of a SIG pistol.
A lost SIG pistol in the Dublin riots,supposedly recoverd in a criminal stash 6weeks later???
Another one stolen last year from a SB mans house.Stored in such a fashion as to be criminally negligent.ASFIK ,still not recoverd.

BornToKill

meathshooter1 wrote: »

Here BTK http://www.herald.ie/national-news/recover-stolen-garda-gun-at-all-costs-city-detectives-told-2027088.html
also grenades and we see rocket launchers last week in the hands of criminals AK47 thank god the garda got them BUT what else have they is this just the tip of the iceburg

No-one, and certainly not me, is denying that guns get smuggled in illegally. I've seen that story reported. The issue is why the experience in E&W and in ROI has been so different over the last decade. I'd prefer to see links or responses to post 19, particularly to the study you mentioned.

BornToKill

rowa wrote: »

well there was the well reported case of a webley revolver which had been handed in or confiscated by the guards in the midlands

If it was well reported you can source the report, I presume, and link to it? I've never seen the story.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

A sucide this year by an ex Garda SB man with a FA UZI? [Sucdie is still a crime here]

No, it's not. And that misfortunate 'example' is really stretching.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Another a couple of years ago in the use of a SIG pistol. A lost SIG pistol in the Dublin riots,supposedly recoverd in a criminal stash 6weeks later??? Another one stolen last year from a SB mans house.Stored in such a fashion as to be criminally negligent.ASFIK ,still not recoverd.

There's a lot of ???, AFAIKs and 'supposedlys' in there. Any hard facts or, for want of them, newspaper accounts?

Grizzly 45

Well Go google them then if you want to find them.:D You got more info than you started with.;)
And also tell us when the law on sucide was changed too???After all it is STILL not called that here in coroners courts.Not to mind it is not unfortunate,just VERY SLOPPY firearms acess control!

OK BTK you are right! Self killing was changed in 1993 to a non crime.Mea culpa[

BornToKill

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well Go google them then if you want to find them.:D You got more info than you started with.;)
And also tell us when the law on sucide was changed too???After all it is STILL not called that here in coroners courts.Not to mind it is not unfortunate,just VERY SLOPPY firearms acess control!

It ceased being a crime in 1993. It would be helpful to your argument if you, too, would be prepared to back it up rather than just telling me to 'go google them'.

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

please do not use this forum as a source of information

But if he doesn't, then he can't follow your advice, and then he would use the forum, but then he would take your advice, and then he wouldn't use the forum, and then he couldn't follow your advice, and then he would use the forum, but then he would take your advice, and then he wouldn't use the forum, and then he couldn't follow your advice, and then he would use the forum, but then he would take your advice, and then he wouldn't use the forum, and then he couldn't follow your advice, and...


That said, I think perhaps this thread's run as far as we should let it, so I'll close it there. Thank you everyone for keeping it reasonably on point...