Planing Permission Problem

Jo Dono

Two years ago I was selling a 1.6 acre site pending planing permission. A local woman applied and got full permission to build a house and garage. In that time I have been in touch with the woman about the site and on every occasion she had some excuse for not paying for the site. Last week she informs me that she will only pay a quater the price for the site and that I can do nothing about it as the planing is in her name so I can't sell to anybody else and if a new planing application is applied for on the site she will object. Can this women do this or is she just blowing smoke.

Poor Uncle Tom

Yes she can do it. But, to me this is blackmail and I personally would never have anymore to do with her.

I would get my solicitor to write her a letter outlining the details you describe above and informing her you will not be blackmailed. This letter can be used when refuting any objections she may put against any future planning application on the site as being vexatious at best.

If she was successful in getting planning permission on the site (if it has planning permission it is a site) then it should follow that others will also qualify to build there.

I assume she is out of pocket for any site tests and planning application and preparation fees. At least you have that consolation.

muffler

Jo Dono wrote: »

Two years ago I was selling a 1.6 acre site pending planing permission. A local woman applied and got full permission to build a house and garage. In that time I have been in touch with the woman about the site and on every occasion she had some excuse for not paying for the site.

I feel sorry for the situation you find yourself in but really and truly you should have had a contract signed on this whereby she would have paid a deposit with the balance due by a predetermined date subject to her getting planning permission.

Jo Dono wrote: »

Last week she informs me that she will only pay a quater the price for the site

That's where your contract would have helped. The only thing I can suggest in this regard is ask her if she is prepared to pay today's market value of the site. You would have to accept the same of course.

Jo Dono wrote: »

and that I can do nothing about it as the planing is in her name.

The planning applies to the site and not her.

Jo Dono wrote: »

so I can't sell to anybody else and if a new planing application is applied for on the site she will object. Can this women do this or is she just blowing smoke.

Everyone is entitled to object to any planning application but given the circumstances Poor Uncle Tom has offered good advice above.

murraymarmalade

:eek: wow,sorry OP.

hope this end well for you,what a B---h.

Jo Dono

Thank you, for your advise but one thing I didn't mention was that I didn't push for a formal contract was this woman is My Aunt.

tred

Jo Dono wrote: »

Thank you, for your advise but one thing I didn't mention was that I didn't push for a formal contract was this woman is My Aunt.

Good Grief!. Anyway of taping her saying shell object unless u drop the price....then how can she officially complain when u have that loaded gun!

RKQ

Talk to your Solicitor, a verbal contract is a contract - don't be blackmailed.
Personally I'd walk away.

If she "qualifies" for local need, & I suspect she does, then she is correct, the Planning Permission is in her name for her only - UNLESS of couse you can get another applicant with a similar "Local Need". (I hope she didn't qualify as a returning emigrant! :eek: )

Jo Dono

She did indeed qualifie for local need, as regards to selling the site at today's market price she won't do that, I was selling her the site at half the market value two year ago (because she is family) and its a quarter of that price she will only pay.
Is it true that she can sell her planning permission to a family member only, because I have hear back now that she has been trying so sell her permission and the site to a nephew on her side of her family, I don't know at what price.

Poor Uncle Tom

She can't sell anything if you don't sell her the site. You hold the aces.

It sounds as though she is trying to turn what the LA sees as a genuine housing need case into a speculative development opportunity, which is not what the planning permission was granted for, I'm sure.

Now that you are aware of this, you can put a stop to it. It's up to you.

antiskeptic

Could anyone explain what is going on here? Is there anything stopping the OP putting the site up for sale on the marker - aside from the fact his aunt would object?

Surely someone applying for/gaining permission to build on a site that isn't theirs can't put a block on the owner to the site selling. Otherwise, anyone could apply for planning anywhere in order to block the owner selling a site.

What is the actual problem I mean?

Poor Uncle Tom

The owner of any piece of land can sell it any time they like. If it has the benefit of planning permission it can be called a site. A planning permission can have a 'residency condition' which can effectively block anyone else from using that planning permission outside of the original applicant or a member of their family. This seems to be the case here.

However, the owner of this site, the Opening Poster, can put the site up for sale on the open marked and sell it, subject to any potential buyer obtaining eligability from the LA to develop that site.

It is recommended that a contract be put in place with any potential buyer outlining timescales and purchase price to prevent from happening what has happened in this case.

The problem in this case appears to be that the OP is dealing with family and doesn't want to dismiss his Aunt and upset family.

Jo Dono

Again, thanks for the input but the bottem line is with the planning regulations gone so strict and three new houses after been built in the field beside this site, I going to be taken a risk on someone getting permission, so I am on two minds weather to take the hit on the price or take a chance.

glic83

business is business you cant let you aunt treat you this way, tell her to pay up and get onto your solicitor straight away worse case you have the land for another few year untill you can re-aply for planning,how long ago was the planning granted?

observer2u

Hey OP

This is a terrible thing to happen. I assume you wrote a letter giving consent to her applying for permission. I suggest you ring the planning authority and speak to the planner who looked over the case and ask whether you can withdraw your consent.

Alternatively her objections are going to be pretty futile considering she has a successful application on the site.

hope it works out for ya

Mellor

To be honest, relative or not, i'd tell her to stick it up her hole.
Tell her that you will sell to somebody willing to pay the asking price. And there is nothing stopping them for applying for planning. She can object, as anyone can, but tell her that an objection doesn't block an application. And given the blackmail, the council will dismiss it very quickly.

Jo Dono

glic83,
The planning was granted in Nov 08, do I have to wait for her planning permission to run out in Nov 2013 before another application can be applied for.

Poor Uncle Tom

No you don't, a new planning application can be made at any time.

rayjdav

What is accepted as a valid contract, verbal or not, according to David Keane book, "RIAI Contracts, A Working Guide" is Offer, Acceptance and Consideration. I believe this can apply here.
It appears from your post that an Offer was made, acceptance approved but, here is the crux, was a consideration forthcoming? If not she can whistle Dixie.....
As said previously above, the permission pertains to the plot of land and not the person. You, as owner, at any time, can apply for an alternative application on the plot under your, or any other applicants name. Once this is done, it superseeds the existing parent permission. There is absolutely nothing the "Aunt":mad: can do about it, assuming no monies have passed.
This is NOT intended to be construed as any form of legal advice, just supplying reference to the situation from similar experience.

Open A

Another issue is that because she (presumably) paid someone to design the house she owns the copyright licence to build it. If you change the design this would invalidate the planning permission.

1.6 acres is huge - would it be possible to sell her a smaller site? It would need to contain the proposed house, entrance, driveway, septic tank and percolation areas. There are minimum garden sizes which vary depending on the local authority but there is a lot of scope within 1.6 acres.

You should be able to find the planning application including drawings and the name of the planner you dealt with on the local authority's website. I suggest you try to call the planner who dealt with the application.

Good luck!

RKQ

rayjdav wrote: »

As said previously above, the permission pertains to the plot of land and not the person.

Normally this is true but not in this case.
As said above the Aunt was only granted Permission because "She" conformed to "Local Need" criteria, therefore the permission technically relates to her & not the land.

OP your Aunt has no grounds to force you to sell this land / site to her.
So take the inititive and tell her to stick to your previous agreement or forget about the sale.:rolleyes:

A new application by a new Applicant with "Local Need" criteria, with a similiar house type (bungalow, dormer, two storey or storey & half) is likely to get full planning permission on the same Site.

Your Aunt owns the copyright licence to build the current house design but I'm sure the original Designer would sell you a copyright licence to build their design. Worth a phone call to enquire.

Don't be blackmailed. Get good professional advice.

rayjdav

RKQ,
I took it for granted, with the mention above by a previous poster, that the Local Needs would be a factor in any subsequent application grant. Apologies for any confusions.
If the OP was to go down the route of another application, I would strongly advise that the local Cllr/TD be onboard asap. Local needs, especially subsequent applications, can/will raise eyebrows in the LA so it's a situation that needs explaining at the outset to the SEP. Not the acting planner but the SEP. Get the pre-planning (haha):rolleyes: minutes too, very important if you take this route.

Jo Dono

I have been doing some checking myself and I have been told that if anyone applies for planning permission on the site they have to get an effluent licence to be sucessful and I have been told that its nearly impossible to get one now with the new regulations. My Aunt didn't have to get one as she got her permission before the regulation came into force.

Poor Uncle Tom

What planning authority are you dealing with?

Jo Dono

Wexford

Poor Uncle Tom

I have checked the Wexford County Council Planning Application Checklist to see what information is currently required to make a planning application. In relation to the Septic Tank/Treatment System details it is required that a Site Characterisation Form would need to be filled out in line with an EPA test being carried out on the site.

If the site has passed a test previously, regardless of whether it was in accordance with SR6 or EPA standards, then there is no reason to assume it will not pass another Test.

When you said an "effluent Licence" did you mean a 'Discharge Licence'? This would only be needed if the run-off from the treatment system was being directed to a river, stream or watercourse instead of to a conventional percolation area and ultimately to ground waters.

Again, if a Discharge Licence has been granted to an applicant for a particular site, it is likely that it would be granted to another person for developing the same site. But, with a site of 1.6 acres it is very doubtful that a discharge licence would be needed.

jonniebgood1

Can OP talk to aunt, it maybe difficult givin that she has renaged ona previous agreement but you should look at it from the aunts point of view also- site prices have decreased since the PP was granted.
I understand that this may seem unfair given the previously agreed price but I would suggest; calculate the current market value of the site; Determine if aunt would pay the current market value; decide if this recalculated value is acceptable to yourself(OP).
This possibility could be good in terms of family relations and whilst you dont get previously agreed figure, you do get a fair price (and the max. you would get currently). Your aunt gets site for current value so can have no complaints.
If this is not acceptable to her then noone, family included could say you have been unfair if you decide to do otherwise.
At the end of the day this may be the best chance of getting anything for the site in current climate.

Jo Dono

Yes, I ment a Discharge Licence. The ground in this area is Marl so there is only about 4 to 5 inchs of top soil so all the houses have a percolation area and a run-off to the nearest river via running ditchs, these ditchs have to have a certain amount of water running in them all year round, if they don't then you don't get your Discharge Licence and the ditch at the back of the site dries up to a trickle in the summer. This regulation is being enforced now but wasn't when my Aunt applied.

Jo Dono

In an earlier answer I explained the site purchase problem with my Aunt, here is the break down. Two year the sites in this area were selling for 100,000 an acre, with the extra 0.6 I was selling for 120,000, the 0.6 wasn't much good for anything else and was a good selling point. I was selling the lot to my Aunt for 60,000, I think thats good value even in today's market, it was outstanding value then. (with the full planning permission). Now she only wants to pay 15,000.

jonniebgood1

Jo Dono wrote: »

In an earlier answer I explained the site purchase problem with my Aunt, here is the break down. Two year the sites in this area were selling for 100,000 an acre, with the extra 0.6 I was selling for 120,000, the 0.6 wasn't much good for anything else and was a good selling point. I was selling the lot to my Aunt for 60,000, I think thats good value even in today's market, it was outstanding value then. (with the full planning permission). Now she only wants to pay 15,000.

The breakdown clears the problem in my mind. You had obliged her with your initial agreement of 60,000. To try and get it for 15,000 is taking the piss in the extreme. Your position is not good though, unless you can find a buyer in the locality who would be entitled to apply for PP on the site. If your aunt objected to planning on the basis that she wants the site it should be deemed irrelevent information by the planner. As outlined by others in this thread you as owner have legal right over the land. She has a planning permission on land she doesnt own which is worthless to her.

I would agree with previous opinions that your next move should be putting the site for sale 'subject to planning permission'. Alternatively you could meet with your area planner (forms to arrange these meetings are on wexfordcoco website). It may also be possible for you to get an outline planning permission for the site, perhaps someone more familiar with wexford county council could advise you as to whether local needs are required for outline planning permission. Outline PP would make the site more attractive to a potential buyer. Any of these moves may prompt your aunt to be more reasonable than she currently is.

danbohan

Jo Dono wrote: »

In an earlier answer I explained the site purchase problem with my Aunt, here is the break down. Two year the sites in this area were selling for 100,000 an acre, with the extra 0.6 I was selling for 120,000, the 0.6 wasn't much good for anything else and was a good selling point. I was selling the lot to my Aunt for 60,000, I think thats good value even in today's market, it was outstanding value then. (with the full planning permission). Now she only wants to pay 15,000.

tell her stick it , even with new regulations in relation to waste it probably will be possible to get new planning on that site in the future , the situation as it now stands means that in a lot of counties, a house in countryside would not be possible at all and it will have to be changed , there will be a lot less rural house building possible though , so site values may increase again similar to situation that existed in northern ireland ,(dont expect 2006 prices anytime soon but will hold value better than townhouses} sit it out , she has more to lose than you

DO0GLE

I'm sure you would get way more than €15000 selling it as agricultural land.
Perhaps you should could explain the circumstances to an auctioneer and get him to come up with a fair valuation. Your Aunt can take it or leave then....at least you will have tried.