WHAT IS LIGHT ABOUT LIGHT INFANTRY?

Avgas

Been thinking about this one.......what does light infantry really mean today?

What would it mean for the Irish army-do we have a distinctive light infantry doctrine?

Is light infantry just shorthand for cheapo infantry lacking in firepower-i.e. under-resourced?

Has light infantry become in fact merely a road-bound 'motorized infantry' force...?

I mean most of our infantry really are road bound in either Pirhanas (if their lucky) or Landcruiser equivalents.....(if their less lucky).

The problem is that IEDS are an attritional 'ace card' that undermines road mobility more or less. It will not go away as a problem. Also BAD PEOPLE do not generally hang out on the road network (except to emplace IEDs and ambush)....but their preferred nests are way off......to get to them you have to go way off-road.....on foot?

And how light is light?

When infantry today do extended dismounts...they seem usually not to be very long...unless their recce troops.....a few days would seem to be the outer limit of an extended foot patrol for genuine light infantry not SOF (correct me if I'm all wrong!).....and yet there is evidence that infantry should be 'in theatre on foot for much much longer'-like maybe weeks?

I've been reading the book by Thomas Ricks on Petraeus/The surge and a book by the Aussie COIN Guru David Kilcullen, "The accidential guerilla.
Light bedtime stuff.:)

BOTH make repeated reference to dismounted operations on FOOT....getting out of the vehicles and off road..for extended periods of time.....this is flagged as a tactic that works......so does that mean we're back, literally, to a new era of foot infantry?

But how on earth do you logistically sustain such a concept?

And how do you prevent extended foot infantry patrols being targetted, swarmed and butchered? Especially if your Irish DF and lack your own integrated 'back up' (CAS/CSAR)?

Oh and if they do ask you to yomp off yonder...... today's western soldiers are often loaded down with huge loads..70-100+ib packs....

and yet stuff I've read says 50ib should be the max and effective combat loads should be between 35-45ibs....!

Light infantry seems to be where its at in terms of the COIN fight...which is so prevelant ....but it seems well......so bloody hard to do right and so risky?

Any suggestions/ideas?

Especially regarding how maybe a distinctive Irish DF 'ultra light infantry' doctrine could be explored for use in PK/Penf scenarios......?

Be especially interesting to hear responses from those who are infantry professionals.

Steyr

The definition on the web is they are skirmishers sent ahead of the main body of troops to harass and delay an enemy advance.

Avgas

Fair enough...I know a bit about the historic origins of light infantry from Napoleonic times...just I assumed not so relevant today in a less linear pattern of warfare.......obviously they would still be a screening force after a fashion...and collecting recce.....

But to be honest I see a different role...they can occupy and "own" ground....as only infantry can do...not by staying fixed in firebases but by continual aggressive patrolling...mobile rolling foot infantry units....owning ground by walking it for extended periods of time?

But maybe we should go all the way back to Jaeger concepts for ideas.....?

Manic Moran

Steyr wrote: »

The definition on the web is they are skirmishers sent ahead of the main body of troops to harass and delay an enemy advance.

That is a very old defiition, and the sort of thing that the cavalry will do today.

Light infantry is generally speaking infantry with no heavy components. No APCs, no tanks, no self-propelled artillery... everything can move by way of helicopter or just whatever's lying around on the battlefied. (Pick-up trucks, whatever).

As a result, they have limited capabilities in a mechanised fight, they have limited mobility, they have limited ability to sustain a mechanised onslaught. On the plus side, they have a very small logistical trail, and have few liabilities in dense terrain such as cities, mountains or forests.

NTM

Avgas

Hi Manic, been meaning to come back on this. Thanks for your post.

Light infantry is generally speaking infantry with no heavy components. No APCs, no tanks, no self-propelled artillery... everything can move by way of helicopter or just whatever's lying around on the battlefield. (Pick-up trucks, whatever).


This is fine and logical and accurate as definitions go. No dispute there. I see a problem though. Aren't we defining light infantry on the basis of what it isn't and what assets it doesn't have-i.e. a negative definition. My thinking is more like we need a positive definition...what light infantry can do/are best for.....missions X. Y. Z......with following tactics.....A, B, C.


On the plus side, they have a very small logistical trail, and have few liabilities in dense terrain such as cities, mountains or forests.


Well you getting positive now......your right they have a small logistical trail compared to a Mechanized battalion...but in fact I've read that a 10 man patrol will require a resupply of 450kgs after three days...... that is not a big load for a truck or even a pair of Strykers to ferry...but if they are on foot...we're talking truly foot borne light infantry..... and if the roads are unsafe due to IEDS...how do you credibly resupply these 10 soldiers every three days? And what if its a reinforced platoon with say 30-45 soldiers? Every three days you have to find a way of hoofing upwards of 2,000+kgs.....and the loads they would have to carry in 70-100ibs rucksacks?

An obvious answer is helicopters but there are never enough helis and they've become gold-plated multi-million dollar money pits......just to carry water and MREs and some ammo?

Maybe one stark conclusion is its simply not logistically credible to have extended foot patrols with western light infantry.....beyond say a week or two....its only a SOF thing? In that event we'd be looking at vehicle based 'dragoon' type light infantry...who could range far off roads and trails but with vehicles....possibly unconventional vehicles.......but then you've lost the tactical/COIN/Humint benefits of being on foot which the COIN gurus preach.....?

I agree light infantry, specifically foot mobile infantry are excellent for mountains...forests...but cities...?.

I thought the big lesson of recent urban fights is the need for combined forces...infantry, engineers, heavy artillery and tanks....very very useful in Fallujah 2004....in fact in a real urban fight it would be more 'heavy' infantry.....their primary weapon would be a HEDP rocket of some type....and a mortar.....and lost of C4 and other engineering type gizmos...maybe we need to consider a special type of combat engineer infantry for FIBUA?
Having said that light infantry are fine for low intensity operations in cities, indeed they are the most appropriate force.

IMHO I think we're still far from answering whether a truly light foot based infantry concept would be workable more generally.

Avgas

Check this out:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/10/afghanistan-taliban-military-kandahar

Good article which explains simply why infantry on foot are so valuable.

I quote just a little from it here:

“With its dense pomegranate orchards, that will look impregnable to eyes in the sky and thermal imagining technology when leaves start growing in the coming weeks, the part of the Arghandab where Bravo company operates could not be better suited to guerrilla warfare.”

LESSON = Modern technology cannot substitute low-tech but high quality boots on the ground for FINDING, FIXING but maybe not always FINISHING bad people.

“Before their arrival, the area was looked after by a company of Strykers, a US army outfit that operates in huge, eight-wheeled armoured vehicles. Undermanned, they could not maintain a permanent presence, but relied instead on regular visits which led to battles with insurgents.
Unlike the Strykers, B Company goes almost everywhere on foot. Daily life at COP Ware consists of a succession of patrols, 24 hours a day.
The soldiers of B Company have become such a familiar sight in the village that the children have developed nicknames for some of the Americans”


LESSON = Foot infantry have the ability to develop a more fixed and lasting presence for the dominance of terrain.

One benefit is a relationship with the locals, and access to crucial HUMINT which is probably worth much more than any other intel. Even low grade political HUMINT (local bitching) can be vital when properly collated and used politically.

But the real benefit of foot infantry is basically primordial. They may not “own” the land, but they are camped out and moving around it ‘on tour’. They are ‘staying’ after a fashion and the local notice this. That denies full ownership of terrain to bad people.

War is often about occupation and ownership of territory. It is the simplest definition of ‘winning’. We’ve forgotten that with our obsession with high tech information dominance warfare and firepower such that western armies are totally over dependent on aerial assets (but not us because their all safely at the Don waiting for Ministers to get that Golf game and open that off license!).

We need to get back to occupying and owning territory-i.e. “winning” through foot infantry. It is actually something Irish DF can do, given the basic high quality of our infantry, especially our NCOs and young officers.

Avgas

Also see this 2009 post:
http://www.army.mil/-news/2009/08/06/25544-infantry-foot-patrols-disrupt-insurgents-aid-remote-afghan-villages/

Selected quote 1: The FOB Baylough Soldiers investigate horses and riders they encounter while on patrol. They also examine motorcycles, which are also commonly used by insurgents for travel.

Some interesting points in that article…..Insurgents use Motorbikes and even horse for mobility…so why don’t NATOs ISAF?……One of the keys to defeating any guerilla force is to adopt tactics that often mimic their tactics…….? I am not joking…yes its mental…but imagine an entire coy equipped with motor cross bikes………wow……

(I await banning for the sheer nuttiness of that suggestion alone).


Quote 2: Patrols can extend as far as seven kilometers, and each Soldier carries about 60 pounds of equipment through orchards, fields, mountainous terrain and waterways. Soldiers pack enough gear and supplies to last 48 hours, in case they are delayed by enemy contact. If Soldiers discover an IED while on patrol, they must wait at that location until an explosive ordnance disposal team, a military bomb squad, arrives to safely destroy or disable the device. As a result, patrols may take as long as three hours to two days, said Gatewood.

Lesson: infantry need to be trained and equipped for foot patrols that cover greater distances and yet to appreciate that such patrols might make slow progress-in other words slow patrols covering small stages carefully but over days. However, the methods described here seem not ideal-48 hrs on the ground only? Covering 7km? Waiting predictably beside ever discovered IED until EOD support can arrived (by chopper?)-that sounds like an invitation to ambush to me. Could they not have a baseline integral EOD capability built in/learned by the section/platoon itself? Yes I know EOD is not something you can just learn by watching a PPT slideshow….but ya know….If that is not option, then why not large platoon patrols with an attached EOD section/team?

Also they really need to get the weight of the packs down to at least 50ibs…from 60ibs…not sure how though.

Thoughts for the day.

Poccington

Avgas wrote: »

Some interesting points in that article…..Insurgents use Motorbikes and even horse for mobility…so why don’t NATOs ISAF?……One of the keys to defeating any guerilla force is to adopt tactics that often mimic their tactics…….? I am not joking…yes its mental…but imagine an entire coy equipped with motor cross bikes………wow……

(I await banning for the sheer nuttiness of that suggestion alone).

I don't know if you remember it but at the start of the Afghan War, ODA 595 and 555, both from 5th SFG used horses as their mode of transport when they linked up with the Northern Alliance. ODA 595 rode on horseback during the Battle for Mazar-e-Sharif.

Although I can't imagine it would ever be considered on a large scale for conventional troops, it's good to see that such forward thinking is happening on some scale.

Imagine the hard on Cavalry troops would get at the thought of travelling on horseback in battle? Just like the good old days :P

Local-womanizer

Poccington wrote: »

I don't know if you remember it but at the start of the Afghan War, ODA 595 and 555, both from 5th SFG used horses as their mode of transport when they linked up with the Northern Alliance. ODA 595 rode on horseback during the Battle for Mazar-e-Sharif.

They also grew mighty beards!

concussion

Generally speaking, with light infantry, the troops hump their rucks and logs support is provided by truck.

Avgas

Poccington wrote: »

I don't know if you remember it but at the start of the Afghan War, ODA 595 and 555, both from 5th SFG used horses as their mode of transport when they linked up with the Northern Alliance. ODA 595 rode on horseback during the Battle for Mazar-e-Sharif.

Although I can't imagine it would ever be considered on a large scale for conventional troops, it's good to see that such forward thinking is happening on some scale.

Imagine the hard on Cavalry troops would get at the thought of travelling on horseback in battle? Just like the good old days :P

Thanks Poccington…I actually had forgotten that…but yes……I remember reading about that..in er cough…. TIME magazine….:o

BTW horses were also used by the Rhodesians in their war in the 1970s …they even had a dedicated horse cav unit….Gray’s Scouts or something I think it was called…not sure how they fared or whether it was just a PR stunt or “4real’ ….in fact to be honest I’d be dubious about horses
(yes I know I raised it…but I just throw these things out there)…

Although …one thing to consider is that Ireland does produce one mean pony….. if you’ve ever been by Ballinasloe round October….

“Traveller” Dragoon concept anyone?
(okay…there is no way I’m even vaguely serious on that one….)

Why?

Horse riding is a skill that takes quite a bit time and practice to learn

Horses bolt and spook easily, and their buggers for looking after.

Their big brutes and stand out in terrain-making a nice target

It would be suicide to fight from the horse (however cool). Like Polish cavalry circa 1939 the plan would be of course dismount from behind cover found (ha!) and engage as infantry.

One source I’ve found suggests they require 40ibs of good quality hay and 150ibs of water…per day.... you either have to find that or bring it with you or have someone air-supply or lorry drop it….it creates a logistics nightmare …it was one reason why horse cavalry was given up in the 1920s……lack of suitable hay…. .

Maybe in certain grassy terrains with freshwater they can eat as they go….so peacekeeping in Siberia in summer….it would be an option…..but Astan it would be v. tricky

T’ban can use horses because they use the local farmers’ infrastructure much better than western forces…..by bribery, goodwill or threats…to use horses in that terrain for extended patrols would I guess more or less have to mean encamping with locals on their farms…..to get access to water and hay/fodder…which could be v.good as it would generate HUMINT contacts…it would be a nice way of bribing locals without making it look too obvious……but could be bad in that they may regard it as a ‘threat’…..and you’d heavily compromise your hosts/hay suppliers…who the insurgents would probably like to have a chat with afterwards…….

The option of Moto Cross bikes (which are lethal if not handled properly) or ATVs (ditto) or even mountain pedal bikes (MTBs) seems less flaky somehow… (although its still ..you know…quite mad)

UK and US forces use diesel moto cross bikes heavily modified…occasionally…mainly SOF, signals and Recce persons…though…..never heard of entire infantry patrols moving en masse and extended on ATVs and bikes…. (Norwegians make much use of ATVs as wel)

http://www.combatreform.org/atb.htm

See the link above which some of you will have come across…..just a bit loopy (and that’s saying something coming from Avgas) but there is more than a grain of truth in it……but mountain pedal bikes AFAIK only work well if they are
(a) On some kind of trail…which means your predictable and will get IED’d.
(b) Unencumbered by loads/panniers….and they wouldn't for COIN infantry

I think the same with moto cross bikes and ATVs…you can’t really go that cross country on them can you?…you’d be on trails and vulnerable……

Now please correct me and say it is totally viable and I'm wrong.

But I think literally “foot” patrols may be where its at.

BuckJamesRogers

Local-womanizer wrote: »

They also grew mighty beards!

lovely image of big hairy lads on horsies charging down some talibs :cool:

Avgas

concussion wrote: »

Generally speaking, with light infantry, the troops hump their rucks and logs support is provided by truck.

This is 100% accurate and real world Concussion.
This is one reason why I have a huge problem with it!

No.....the problem with trucks is the IED plague....which is for mobility what AIDS was and is to casual sex....(?)

Trucks are sooooooo easy to kill. Cheapo IEDS will do it. Even a poxy 5kg of homemade fertiliser mix will do. Even a few guys with AKs and an old RPG2. Nothing fancy needed to take down a basic cargo truck.

And trucks with loads can go off road....but within limits.....terrain in Astan is extreme...but there are many terrains which are extreme....so if your tied to truck based logistics...your really tied into a road network.....rather more than less. If the insurgents undermine the security of the road net they've scored a major victory in a strategic attritional sense and a serious reduction of mobility in a tactical sense.

In Astan IEDs are averaging 22 a day.
I hope Irish DF never go there, nor meet a mission with that level of threat, but it would be dumb to assume that IEDs won't feature.

So if we're going to do light infantry we have to figure out a robust and resilient way of logistically sustaining our infantry which minimizes the road based IED vulnerability as far as practicable. That is what Astan is teaching us right now.

We can't afford many or even any helicopters-the obvious answer.

We don't have tracked cargo assets that could be ideal for greater off road logistics-unless we butcher the antique Scorpions. but even Avgas would admit that is far-fetched.

We do have Pirhana's but I'm not sure what their cargo capacity would be and their off road abilities are disputed....some say they can go anywhere....others say they're only partly off-roadable some of the time....and while they are proof against AKs...a bigger and more advanced IED or RPG will easily have them......

but the crucial issue would be getting off predictable roads......whatever logistics mode is chosen.....Pirhanas used as trucks....camels....whatever...just get off road......as much as you can......that seems to be the not very easy to apply lesson.

The rucks issue is a separate issue.....anything over 50ibs you are not talking light infantry anymore...

For an interesting discussion on the solider loads problem (i.e. supersized rucks)

See....
http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=6646

Just one quote illustrates my argument:

"Weight has changed our tactics. We used to walk those mountains, now we drive the valleys.

Those of you who are commanders and have decided that an 80 lbs fighting load is acceptable are part of the problem, plain and simple. It is not (acceptable). .. Since the Hoplites, we have found that the army standard 35-45 lbs is the most weight one can carry and still fight effectively for a long period."

sapperfitz82 posted on 02/05/2009.

BigDuffman

The Sri Lankan Special Forces utilize SF patrols mounted on Motocross bikes to great effect in dealing with the tamil tigers. Due to the nature of the terrain they operate in its the prefered mode of tpt.

I saw a documentary (one of those bravo jobbies) and their contact drills looked fairly slick as they engaged and fought whilst still mounted, one driver one rider tossing smoke and firing over the shoulder. Whilst the section brought a new definition to shoot and scoot(er).

Local-womanizer

BigDuffman wrote: »

The Sri Lankan Special Forces utilize SF patrols mounted on Motocross bikes to great effect in dealing with the tamil tigers. Due to the nature of the terrain they operate in its the prefered mode of tpt.

I saw a documentary (one of those bravo jobbies) and their contact drills looked fairly slick as they engaged and fought whilst still mounted, one driver one rider tossing smoke and firing over the shoulder. Whilst the section brought a new definition to shoot and scoot(er).

Seen that aswell,and it looked impressive.

Whats the story with the PDF scramblers? What are they used for?

Avgas

Good posts lads.....didn't know at all about Sri Lankys and their bikin'n'shootin habits.. ....so we....Irish DF.... have scramblers do we...details anyone? Can't be Opsec can it?

..ehmmmm.......the plot thickens in Avgas's mission to promote Irish Ultra-Light Infantry......(sheer lunacy....but)

Local-womanizer

Avgas wrote: »

Good posts lads.....didn't know at all about Sri Lankys and their bikin'n'shootin habits.. ....so we....Irish DF.... have scramblers do we...details anyone? Can't be Opsec can it?

..ehmmmm.......the plot thickens in Avgas's mission to promote Irish Ultra-Light Infantry......(sheer lunacy....but)

Never seen these Avgas?!!! Theres a well known pic of the Rangers on them overseas in front of a truck.

And more recent ones :

http://www.facebook.com/IrishDefenceForces#!/photo.php?pid=1644612&id=741894086

Avgas

I have to admit local womanizer I've not seen that impressive photo before.......I'm.... ahem....of a vintage that is not au fait with Facebook......:)

So we now know the ARW use scramblers.. quel surprise ..what about the rest of the army...? Have scramblers been trialled say in Chad...or elsewhere.... and what about moving and entire platoon patrol on scramblers.....?

Not being a motorbike person what I'd like to know is how technically realistic would such be....I've seen those quad bike ATVs...scramble up to the top of Lug in Wicklow...but they have to more or less use a trail for much of it (which they trash)....there also v. noisy ......so it wouldn't be hard to predict and ambush....and how safe would it be in the sense of falling off all the time?

Avgas

I just couldn't resist this when I found it...and I don't think its a spoof....Canadians are using a new secret weapon to supply their troops in Astan....

DONKEYS!!!!!!!!

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/caj/documents/vol_12/iss_3/CAJ_Vol12.3_08_e.pdf

I love this idea...:D

(a) Its totally OTT
(b) its cheap
(c) We have good quality Donkeys here in Ireland=" A Donkey less ordinary".
(d) It would cause one hell of a row with animal rights' activists and the Green party in govt.....that would just be worth it alone...
(e)...oh ...and it might well simply work...allowing what I want.... reinforced foot infantry platoons to stay on patrol for up to two weeks duration.......

The other radical idea to enable the logistics problem of foot infantry to be solved in a way that bypasses road overdependence/IED vulnerability would be to investigate ....local porters.....basically a corps of paid local volunteers who transport food and water.....has been used in many historic wars......would need a bit of thinking out and if we were going to ask locals to do this for us I would strongly advocate we change our Citizenship/Nationality rules to allow easy access to Irish citizenship for such locals who help Irish DF contingents overseas as trackers, guides, interpreters or even porters...as they may put their lives at serious risk.....

Of course both suggestions are nutty....but to my mind its positively insane to assume Scania and Iveco trucks could just waltz around the trails that pass for roads in Astan to deliver food, water and ammo....they would be incinerated.

To prevail and dominate in zones like Astan we need an ULTRA light infantry concept that can occupy complex terrain over long periods of time, master HUMINT, and avoid IEDS/Roads.

M'Asal Beag Dubh how are ya?

OS119

Avgas wrote: »

Not being a motorbike person what I'd like to know is how technically realistic would such be....I've seen those quad bike ATVs...scramble up to the top of Lug in Wicklow...but they have to more or less use a trail for much of it (which they trash)....there also v. noisy ......so it wouldn't be hard to predict and ambush....and how safe would it be in the sense of falling off all the time?

we use quad bikes for resup in Afghanistan - while they are great value in dryish areas, they can be mince in flooded bits and may need to be dug-out every 10yds...

in terms of their vunerability, you have two defences: keep the enemy busy - both with fire and diversions - when you have resup coming in, and use the 'all-terrain' bit to try and vary the approach routes. its not brilliant, and it can be bloody dangerous, but unless you buy an almost infinite number of Chinooks or have terrain that much larger, armoured vehicles you can move over, your other option is having blokes run out of ammunition.

they'd be very useful in a marginally less hostile, less IED-infested AO - mobility, load-carrying etc...

Avgas

The deafening silence re my suggestion on Donkeys I will take as...disapproval/disbelief/withering pity........:)

But the infantry if they want to get really down and dirty on foot for days/weeks at a time and up crags and hills miles away from roads and FOBs without the BURDEN of 88ibs rucks...then they will need a new type of resilient logistics...

Logistics today are simply not working...especially for the LIGHT infantryman/person.

example?

From:
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/LogisticsOpsFuelTheFightAgainstTheTaliban.htm

"To fill the gap we had air despatch, civilian contract haulage and various helicopter options, but none of these proved wholly reliable.

For example, the shooting down of a civilian Mi-26 helicopter over Sangin in July effectively meant that half the forward operating bases (FOBs) could not use civilian contract helicopter missions.

Our attempt to fight a civilian convoy into the same area - which took two months of contract negotiations - was only partly successful.

Three of its 24 loads of construction stores were lost to IED strikes on the outward journey and an ambush on the return leg left 10 drivers dead and up to 20 vehicles destroyed. We put further such moves on hold until we could guarantee better security and more control.

Despite setbacks there have been successes using contractors. We were able to resupply several southern Helmand bases with independently run local (Jingly) convoys and, towards the end of our tour, more locations were being opened up for contract helicopter missions.

Reliance on contractors in a hostile environment is fraught with difficulties. Despite the successes, and the dogged resilience of many who suffered significant casualties on our behalf, civilian delivery cannot be guaranteed.
Contractorised solutions work well in relatively benign areas but costing at least $10,000 for each truckload, they are very expensive
to run.

[WHAT HE DOESN'T SAY IS THAT SOME OF THIS MONEY PROBABLY GOES TO THE TALIBS AS PROTECTION VIA THE CONTRACTOR...AND SO MY IDEA OF A PORTER CORPS THAT WOULD BE LOCALS PICKED, TRAINED AND PAID BY THE ARMY ITSELF MIGHT BE BETTER?]

There are still a great many places in Afghanistan where we must use military combat logistic patrols, supported by combat arms activity, to fight stores and materiel through to the FOBs.

combat logistic patrols These patrols are deliberate manoeuvre operations and require the same degree of integrated planning, force protection, surveillance and air support that any other battle group mission receives."

This is the reality, admittedly in high tempo Astan.

It may not be this bad other places Irish DF could end up.

But this type of situation kills tactical creativity...and destroys ultra light infantry 'terrain penetration' abilities which are not just something nice...they are CRUCIAL....for COIN wars...and any PK missions where insurgency is a serious threat......

In that context...donkeys, camels, mules, dogs, MTBs, quads and scramblers as well as para-air dropping (from a safer high altitude) should all be considered as profoundly serious options....and not just by ISAF....the Irish DF should be using their time now in our Post Chad doldrums to trial and experiment...

ULTRA light infantry + RESILIENT logistics.

Del2005

Avgas wrote: »

I have to admit local womanizer I've not seen that impressive photo before.......I'm.... ahem....of a vintage that is not au fait with Facebook......:)

So we now know the ARW use scramblers.. quel surprise ..what about the rest of the army...? Have scramblers been trialled say in Chad...or elsewhere.... and what about moving and entire platoon patrol on scramblers.....?

Not being a motorbike person what I'd like to know is how technically realistic would such be....I've seen those quad bike ATVs...scramble up to the top of Lug in Wicklow...but they have to more or less use a trail for much of it (which they trash)....there also v. noisy ......so it wouldn't be hard to predict and ambush....and how safe would it be in the sense of falling off all the time?

They could use Trials Bikes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0KQRmUzPNU

Granted he's one of the best in the world, but it would take too long to get trained on one.

They don't trash trails like the crossers do. They go pretty much anywhere, once the riders is good enough, and are relatively silent (in 4 stroke). And they are much easier to drag out of holes bar a bicycle.

They even do road versions with proper seats.

Not sure how viable they would be for the army but you're looking for highly mobile vehilces.

Avgas

Pretty impressive video....my thanks!

For a military role in general this type of bike would be a great piece of kit...however, what he's doing here wouldn't really work so well for COIN light infantry who are trying to avoid IEDs and yet penetrate the maddest and baddest terrain...especially mountains.......for a start there would be 50ibs of weight saddled somewhere on that rather groovy bike which would cramp anyone's style......your right about the sound though.....its not that bad.....the problem is that to make progress and make sense in really dog rough terrain you'd probably end up using some kind of trail...and the Talibs, or indeed any decent insurgent outfit, would spot this and probably get some kind of IED together....

Here's a quote which outlines their modus:


FROM: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA451756&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

"Taliban watch the Marines’ habits carefully, including how small units react in the first instants of a firefight.

While the Marines scatter, take cover and maneuver, using walls and small rises as firing positions to bound from, the insurgents take note. “This is what they do: Shoot, and observe where the Marines go,” said Lt. Col. Matthew Baker, the battalion’s commander. “And where the Marines go, that is where they will put an I.E.D.”

On two patrols the battalion made last month, the Taliban’s sense of their enemy’s previous movements seemed well developed.

On one, a Marine stepped on a pressure plate rigged to a bomb that did not explode. The pressure plate was located against a wall on a knoll with a commanding view of surrounding ground. The Marines said units have used the knoll as a firing position many times.

On another, an antitank land mine had been placed in the dirt on a turnaround loop beside one of the province’s main roads — exactly where an Afghan police unit often parks its cars."


Remember, that while some of the Talibs are exotic foreign fighters as many are local who know the terrain lack the back of their hand....

So....moving on foot gives greater variation in exact approach and less predictability, which should in theory mean greater safety, although I admit that any terrain can sometimes naturally channel and limit options down to quite a narrow series of possible lines of foot approach with some cover/limited exposure.

However, for that to work units need detailed relief maps probably using GPS and GIS tools to analyse 'safe ways' and store records of previous march tracks....and avoid these....such route planning should be seen as a critical skill and a dedicated part of all light infantry operations...

And one could combine foot and bike sections...using the bike sections as a type or rapid response section for the wider platoon foot patrol or as a screening force quite a bit ahead...

The truth is that much would depend on terrain...where it was less mountainous then a role for a bike like this would grow quite a bit....

My argument would be any ultra light infantry units should have access to a toolbox of different tactics and tools...trial bikes, quads, yes Donkeys.....and boots and of course Landrovers.....you mix and match what you can get away according to the terrain and the threat, while keeping as logistically light as possible, as off road and unpredictable as possible, and all the time deeply penetrating within the terrain and making contact with locals.....occupying the land.

Winning.

Oh and, just for the heck of it we should trial a whole platoon on these bikes!

Avgas

Not much interest in my ramblings......so I might draw this to a close.......with suggested 'lesson drawing' [i.e ritual Hari kiri thread suicide]....all to be taken with a DROPs container full of salt perhaps:)

LESSON DRAWING FOR IRISH LIGHT INFANTRY

Ireland should consider offering UN/EU PK forces distinctive ULTRA LIGHT INFANTRY forces….

Their mission would be primarily as COIN area control specialists and gatherers of HUMINT.

These units would be deployed in a reinforced COY structure of about 150 personnel, either on their own, or as part of a regular (BORING) inf battalion or as part of a battle group (either ours or someone else's).

They would be able to undertake their own extended foot patrol in formations ranging from a reinforced section (16-18 soldiers) to reinforced platoons (40-50 soldiers).

They are not special forces commandos/rangers-but expert light infantry.

Working on foot for austere and extended dismounts would be their signature capability.

These soldiers would be strictly limited to 50ib combat loads.

For added mobility they would have access to motorbikes, mountain bikes and occasionally donkeys and horses….they would possibly ingress to patrol jump off point by our own Pirhana's, but in that case employ strictly as off road routing as possible.....or better still by friendly helicopters.....

Same Pirhana's, in the absence of anything better, might be used to deliver logistics resupply missions in occasional aggressive combat logistics patrols which hook up at carefully chosen, and never repeated, rally (and fall back) points.

They should have their own ‘organic’ UAV support in the guise of a 3-6 strong UAV unit. This UAV would be either a proper commercial model…such as the San Eagle…or an improvised UAV type with obviously much less capability, endurance or reliability, but useful nonetheless. Israeli UAVs in the 1970s and early 1980s were quite improvised as were Hezbollah's in 2006 (although Iran clearly helped...but improv UAVs can be done on a shoestring budget).

To be effective, they would require their own ‘organic’ air support unit-which would be equipped with 6 robust STOL transports (PC-12, Cessna Caravans, in fact diesel powered piston types might be even better) which would fly combined paradrop resupply/overwatch missions from rough forward air bases in proximity.(I can explain and follow this madness up in another post if need be)

Their organic firepower would be necessarily Spartan and simple. It would be built up around 7.62mm sniper rifles, lighter GPMGs and light Mortar/grenade projectors.

So how would they kill bad people?

Answer-they wouldn't if possible. They collect HUMINT slowly and help build a picture that defeats the BAD PEOPLE politically...and helps focus who, where, and when to kill. In a major bind they would, like everyone else, call CAS/CASR-so it is a working assumption such assets would be available (not withstanding weather/ash/gremlins).

The following might be an example of an Ultra Light Infantry Patrol optimized for a 2 week patrol.

1 x Command/HQ section
(from 4-8 soldiers) would have an OC and his No.2, would include local interpreters/guides/trackers (1-2), and a separate Tactical, and Strategic/Political intelligence officers/NCO….(latter more HUMINT leaning)
1 x Recce section with a sub-team as a fire control party…. FAC/FAO trained liasion NCOs and their special signals and optics gear (8 soldiers)
3 x Rifle/Machine Gun sections (3 x 8 soldiers = 24; Each section would have between 1 and sometimes 2 light 7.62mm Minimi machine guns, usually2 x HK417 designated marksman rifles, with the remainder armed with a mix of either basic rifles in 5.56 or 7.62mm rifles, or my extreme preference, just with 40mm mult-shot grenade launchers/and or pistols and no rifles.
1 x Light Mortar or Grenade Launcher section ( 8 soldiers, and typically at least 1 commando 60mm mortar tube, the rest acting as ammo carriers, but occasionally this would be altered to 1 proper 60mm tube, and if possible sometimes, an additional commando ultra light 60mm. And alternative to give even extra lightness would be 40mm extended range grenade launchers in lieu of 60mm).

Total = 44-48 soldiers

Loads would vary with terrain, climate and threat.
But the culture should be 'if in doubt leave it out'.

Most crucial piece of kit and skill?
Low scale GIS generated relief maps and map reading/route planning

Most important person in the Patrol?
Local guide/tracker/interpreter/liaison person(s)



I might take up the issue of reducing the (Irish) soldier's load in a separate thread sometime.