Rent Allowance - Rent Over Max HSE Level?

H8GHOTI

Anyone here renting a place (or know anyone who is) where the rent is over the max level set out by the HSE/Social Welfare?

If someone is renting an apartment for 5 years @ €800/month and are happy where they are, then they lose their job and apply for rent allowance. Are they expected to move out and find a place where the rent is say €600? Are you not allowed to top up the rent yourself?

I presume some landlords will sign the forms stating that the rent is €600 but then the tenant will still pay €800. How do landlords/tenants go about this? Do bank accounts get checked to make sure that only €600 is being paid. What if rent is paid in cash?

crossmolinalad

Non landlord will sign a fake rentform because afterwards it can be used against them and its fraud
U need to bring with u the original contract and a copy of your running rent book

H8GHOTI

Seen this on the Social Welfare website:

If your actual rent is higher than the local maximum, you may be refused Rent Supplement entirely.

&

You will not normally receive a Rent Supplement if:
Your rent is above set limits (your CWO will advise you of these limits)
You do not comply with a request to apply to a Housing Authority for accommodation

Is it a given that you will be refused if your rent is above the max or is there some leeway? With wording like "you may be" & "not normally" it would suggest that there are exceptions.

In that second quote there, it mentions applying to a Housing Authority. Does that mean that you should apply for a council house or only if requested?

I could understand these rules if one was looking for a new place to rent. You'd be expected to look for somewhere cheap. But if already living somewhere for a considerable amount of time, it might be different. Do they expect people to move out, find somewhere cheap (maybe only for a couple of months) and then when they get jobs again, to move back to somewhere nicer again?

ricman

You have to go on the housing list first to be eligible for ra, and yes, they will expect you to move out if the rent is over the limit.
OF COURSE if a woman is living there with 2 kids they maybe abit more flexible.1ST go to the council housing dept ,dcc, wood quay housing dept ,fill in a form ,get on the housing list.
So unless the rent go s down ,you,ll have to move out.
YOU must apply to council ASAP,, say i wish to be placed on the housing list.
if you are on the dole why would you want to pay more, they can look at the flat and judge the rent is x amount, you are not gonna get a 1bed apartment 4 100euro per week.

Sir Oxman

ricman wrote: »

You have to go on the housing list first to be eligible for ra, and yes, they will expect you to move out if the rent is over the limit.
OF COURSE if a woman is living there with 2 kids they maybe abit more flexible.1ST go to the council housing dept ,dcc, wood quay housing dept ,fill in a form ,get on the housing list.
So unless the rent go s down ,you,ll have to move out.
YOU must apply to council ASAP,, say i wish to be placed on the housing list.
if you are on the dole why would you want to pay more, they can look at the flat and judge the rent is x amount, you are not gonna get a 1bed apartment 4 100euro per week.

Or be 6 months or more in rented accomodation.

Darlughda

For a single person the max level is around €500 in the Dublin area.

Most landlords refuse rent allowance, even if a tenant has been made redundant. There is no legislation in place stopping them doing so.

Asking your landlord to essentially commit fraud in signing such a document might be a big ask, even if he is the decent sort who knows he has a good tenant and you are good for the rest until your jobseekers benefit runs out.

quibbles

H8GHOTI wrote: »

I presume some landlords will sign the forms stating that the rent is €600 but then the tenant will still pay €800.

Of course they will.

And they do.

YES

H8GHOTI

ricman wrote: »

...if you are on the dole why would you want to pay more....

Well the max we're allowed is €143 (living with girlfriend). For €30 extra per week, we might be able to stay where we are. Between the two of us I think we'd manage that & would prefer that than moving.

gambiaman wrote: »

Or be 6 months or more in rented accomodation.

Ya thanks, that was my understanding.

Darlughda wrote: »

For a single person the max level is around €500 in the Dublin area.

Most landlords refuse rent allowance, even if a tenant has been made redundant. There is no legislation in place stopping them doing so.

Asking your landlord to essentially commit fraud in signing such a document might be a big ask, even if he is the decent sort who knows he has a good tenant and you are good for the rest until your jobseekers benefit runs out.

Ya I wouldn't ask anyone to commit fraud, even though he is pretty sound. I wouldn't be fond of lying myself. Was just curious about ways around it & what others do. I think he would accept RA though, because we have been good tenants and he probably doesn't want the hassle of looking for someone else. But the level we'd have to drop to might be too far.

quibbles

Incidendtally , iF you did know someone that had a fraudulent arrangement re. RA, like the one the OP is suggesting above, Who would one report it to ?

jimmycrackcorm

quibbles wrote: »

Incidendtally , iF you did know someone that had a fraudulent arrangement re. RA, like the one the OP is suggesting above, Who would one report it to ?

Why would you want to report it? If people want to pay over the rent allowance for a place - what's the difference if they were to spend that money on booze or tobacco or whatever else they'd choose?

It's not a case that if you get rent allowance that you get you dole cut to make up for it.

Darlughda

quibbles wrote: »

Incidendtally , iF you did know someone that had a fraudulent arrangement re. RA, like the one the OP is suggesting above, Who would one report it to ?

Mmmm, don't you sound like a really sound individual.
What the hell could motivate you to 'report' that someone is paying more to their landlord than is down in the forms?

Unless you are aware of basic facts, this is the reality for most people at the moment, while they are on JB.

However Landlords will have to stop with their greed sooner or later, when it becomes clear that the 'market' value of their rental properties is way, way above rent allowance maximum levels.

So, you want to shop someone who is just trying to survive, or are you going for the landlords?

quozl

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why would you want to report it? If people want to pay over the rent allowance for a place - what's the difference if they were to spend that money on booze or tobacco or whatever else they'd choose?

It's a subsidy to the land-lord. If they couldn't get more than the RA amount from a RA tenant then they'd either have to drop their rent, or find another tenant.

There are more rental properties than tenants, so both will lead to reductions in rents. To all tenants', including RA tenants', benefit.

Elle Collins

quozl wrote: »

There are more rental properties than tenants, so both will lead to reductions in rents. To all tenants', including RA tenants', benefit.

Except for the one who's made homeless because of some nasty-minded fcuker picking up the phone and reporting that they are paying MORE rent than they ought to be, not less. God this really is some screwed-up country we're living in.

Darlughda

quozl wrote: »

It's a subsidy to the land-lord. If they couldn't get more than the RA amount from a RA tenant then they'd either have to drop their rent, or find another tenant.

There are more rental properties than tenants, so both will lead to reductions in rents. To all tenants', including RA tenants', benefit.

Ideally, that's would should happen.

Unfortunately the reality is the majority of landlords will do anything to avoid dropping their rent prices, regardless of the surplas of rental properties, and tenants are afraid of being made homeless so will do whatever it takes to stump up the extra few hundred euro each month.

If they rat out a dodgy landlord, all the tenants of that landlord are then in trouble with the CWO for lying on the form saying the rent was cheaper than it was! They will have their rent allowance cut completely, it really is a terrible system.

quozl

Elle Collins wrote: »

Except for the one who's made homeless because of some nasty-minded fcuker picking up the phone and reporting that they are paying MORE rent than they ought to be, not less. God this really is some screwed-up country we're living in.

Instead those on RA who cannot afford to pay any extra, or choose to follow the agreement under which they are given this money, are at a disadvantage relative to others?

It is only to the odd corrupt landlord's benefit that people pay an addition to their RA.

You're supporting a system that abuses RA tenants, and other tenants, Elle.

I don't think you're thinking this through, but are instead going on a knee jerk reaction. And, there is also a significant difference between homelessness, and having to change rental accommodation.

Elle Collins

quozl wrote: »

Instead those on RA who cannot afford to pay any extra, or choose to follow the agreement under which they are given this money, are at a disadvantage relative to others?

It is only to the odd corrupt landlord's benefit that people pay an addition to their RA.

You're supporting a system that abuses RA tenants, and other tenants, Elle.

I don't think you're thinking this through, but are instead going on a knee jerk reaction. And, there is also a significant difference between homelessness, and having to change rental accommodation.

Having to change rental accommodation as a RA tenant is near impossible Quozi, especially if the need for that change occurs suddenly, and most particularly if we're talking about the case of a single woman with kids. If somebody blows the whistle to the CWO that a person is paying fifty or a hundred quid extra per month the person they are reporting will find themselves in a situation where they have to move immediately, and they will have to move immediately in a country where RA tenants are ritually refused accommodation almost everywhere they go. There is a very real risk of homelessness. Focus Ireland deals with situations like this every day.

People who report those on RA for paying a surplus to the landlord may think they are doing something for the greater good but in fact all they are doing is causing misery to those in a situation that they, fortunately, have no experience of being in themselves.

quozl

Would it not be better for all if the over-paying was known to be 100% non-tolerated and therefore the RA recipient would not choose to get themselves into this situation? IE the situation of paying above RA levels, not obviously of being reliant on RA, which they may have had no control over.

The allowances, in Dublin anyway, for the single mother with 2 kids you use as an example are quite generous, €1,110 per month. It should be readily possible to find suitable accommodation for that money without cheating. There are 184 results, for 3 bed properties in Dublin that accept RA on daft.ie . I feel your emotive example is misleading to be honest.

The RA recipient are either being foolish if they put themselves into the situation you describe, or are being exploited by the land-lord. As it stands now, many people will take this gamble, if it was almost certain not to work out for them, then they would not.

I don't believe that cheating the system is the best approach. For anybody, except possibly the odd unscrupulous landlord. I believe it's actually a part of the problems we find ourselves in now.

Elle Collins

quozl wrote: »

I believe it's actually a part of the problems we find ourselves in now.

I haven't time to respond at legnth today Quozi, but I have to say if you're looking for culprits for 'the problems we find ourselves in now' you'd be better off forgetting about RA tenants and pointing the finger in the direction of Leinster house and the fianna fail voters who filled it with a shower of clowns.

quozl

Elle Collins wrote: »

I haven't time to respond at legnth today Quozi, but I have to say if you're looking for culprits for 'the problems we find ourselves in now' you'd be better off forgetting about RA tenants and pointing the finger in the direction of Leinster house and the fianna fail voters who filled it with a shower of clowns.

Oh, now, i'm hardly blaming RA tenants for our problems. I'm to a degree blaming the attitude of 'do what you can get away with', which is prevalent from the top down. Including in the support for any RA tenants abusing the system.

I'd like to see no tolerance for that attitude. From the top down. It's corruption imo, and is a large part of the reason our country is so messed up now. We're very tolerant of it, at every level.

I'd like to see that change.

Elle Collins

quozl wrote: »

It's corruption imo, and is a large part of the reason our country is so messed up now. We're very tolerant of it, at every level.

I'd like to see that change.

So would I. I think most of us would, but I think it's hardly reasonable to accuse RA tenants who are overpaying their rent (as opposed to underpaying it) of 'cheating' and 'corruption'.

I have heard of one RA scam whereby the RA tenant asks the landlord to pretend the rent is more than it is, in order that the tenant doesn't have to pay a cent and the landlord can pocket X amount of extra cash per month. If this was the situation you were referring to I'd certainly agree that it was cheating and corrupt, but the situation we are talking about is worlds away from that.

H8GHOTI

Why are there max levels anyway?
It is means tested, so it's not as if the CWO will say yes to someone that can afford a place that's like €2k a month. If someone is entitled to it, why aren't they just given their €50 per week, or whatever it is, and let live where they want? Like someone else said above, some people may not drink or smoke or spend their money on other ****e. Why limit where people can live? If someone wants to live somewhere a bit nicer and go without something else, they should be allowed to imo.

If you look at the max rates for Cork, a couple living by themselves the max is €143 pw. So that's either €572 pm (143x4) or €620 pm ((143x52) / 12). Which way is it calculated? Even if they wanted to put say €20 extra a week towards rent, that'd be €700 pm, they'd have a much better/wider/nicer range to choose from. Sacrifice a tenner each, for a better accommodation? I think a lot of people would, given the choice.

quozl

Elle Collins wrote: »

So would I. I think most of us would, but I think it's hardly reasonable to accuse RA tenants who are overpaying their rent (as opposed to underpaying it) of 'cheating' and 'corruption'.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. I do view it as corruption. Particularly on the landlord's behalf, the tenant may be a victim, or they may not.

I agree with you it's orders of magnitude less bad than the other scenario you give, but, it still should not be tolerated in my opinion.

We need to stop supporting attempts to abuse the system. At all levels.

ztoical

quozl wrote: »

Would it not be better for all if the over-paying was known to be 100% non-tolerated and therefore the RA recipient would not choose to get themselves into this situation? IE the situation of paying above RA levels, not obviously of being reliant on RA, which they may have had no control over.

Alot of the people currently claiming rent allowance are those who recently lost their jobs not long term unemployed. They most likely are renting apartments that they have leases signed for and didn't plan on having their income change. No one plans on losing their job and most of these people don't plan on staying jobless any longer then they have to. Why should they move, thus breaking their lease, a legal binding document, and risk losing their deposit, risk having the landlord chase after them for the rent they owe for breaking the lease, move kids from schools and friends and their social life cus if they can't get RA for were they are at chances are there's no where else local they can afford.

People are already stressed enough as is dealing with looking for work without moving house and the expense that goes with that. If they are willing to live with a little less cash by adding an extra couple of euro on top of their rent seriously where is the harm? As social welfare fraud goes it's not exactly top of anyones list surely?

In the UK it's clearly stated when you apply for RA that it is means tested and most likely it won't cover the full cost of your rent and you'll will have to make up the difference yourself from your own funds....I just assumed it was the same in Ireland.

H8GHOTI

Met my local CWO today. She said that I do have to go on the housing list before I get Rent Allowance. I told her I was in private rented accommodation for over 6 months. She said it didn't matter. I said isn't it one or the other and she just said no.
About the max rent, she said we couldn't put more towards it ourselves because the levels are there to stop people getting in to debt. If a couple in Dublin can afford to pay €186 per week and they get the same about of dole as the rest of the country then that's a kinda stupid reason imo.

ricman

Theres different ra limits for shared or non shared accomodation.As a single person you can rent a small flat,bedsit or rent a single room in a private house.Go to council 2moro, put in application for the housing list.
say your rent is 95 pw, you,ll end up paying ten euro approx, and you must have a rent book.
THEY must have some limits otherwise landlords would just up the rent for someone on welfare.
Do not bother viewing flat x unless you are sure the landlords take ra tenants.
centrecare will give you a list of flats take are rented under ra system.

Sir Oxman

H8GHOTI wrote: »

Met my local CWO today. She said that I do have to go on the housing list before I get Rent Allowance. I told her I was in private rented accommodation for over 6 months. She said it didn't matter. I said isn't it one or the other and she just said no.
About the max rent, she said we couldn't put more towards it ourselves because the levels are there to stop people getting in to debt. If a couple in Dublin can afford to pay €186 per week and they get the same about of dole as the rest of the country then that's a kinda stupid reason imo.

"
Getting Rent Supplement

Rent Supplement will only be provided if the accommodation is suitable for your needs and the rent is below the maximum rent level set for your county.
You may get Rent Supplement if you have been living for 6 months (183 days) out of the last 12 months in one, or a combination, of the following:

• Accommodation for homeless people
• Private rented accommodation. You must be able to show that you could afford the rent at the beginning of your tenancy and that you could have continued to pay rent but are unable to do so because of a change in your circumstances which occurred after you started renting.
• An institution, for example, a hospital, care home or place of detention

Or

• Be assessed in the last 12 months by a local authority as being eligible for and in need of social housing. If you don't have a housing need assessment, you must go to the local authority to have your housing need assessed. The local authority must be in the same area that you intend to live and claim Rent Supplement. Only when you are assessed as eligible for and in need of housing can you apply for Rent Supplement. Rent Supplement is not payable while the local authority is carrying out a housing needs assessment."

http://www.losingyourjob.ie/help-with-your-rent-or-mortgage/rent_supplement.html#rates

Either she doesn't know her job or the rules have changed today.

I've heard from different people that some of these CWO's are a law unto themselves..

ricman

WELL you need to be on the housing list first, to even apply for ra.
Google rent allowance limits dublin ie.Getting on the housing list is easy, bring some id,fill in a form, from housing dept wood quay.

Sir Oxman

ricman wrote: »

WELL you need to be on the housing list first, to even apply for ra.
Google rent allowance limits dublin ie.Getting on the housing list is easy, bring some id,fill in a form, from housing dept wood quay.

But read the paragraph above, from cib.ie

Ever2010

A houseshare will only allow you 398 euro a month in dublin/Wicklow - I share with my boyfreind and our rent on the house is 1000 a month - which pays our landlady's mortgage just about. I do think it's ridiculous that they wouldn't allow me the 398 and I top that up each month from my dole money.

My landlady would be happy enough to do a 'fake' lease but I don't really want to go down that route. I can afford the rent and bills each month with little to nothing left over but that's all the dole is meant to do really. I'm lucky that I've always had good savings, plus I'm hoping that unemployment is only going to be a temporary situation - so I can get back to earning my own money again!

H8GHOTI

ricman wrote: »

Theres different ra limits for shared or non shared accomodation.As a single person you can rent a small flat,bedsit or rent a single room in a private house.Go to council 2moro, put in application for the housing list.
say your rent is 95 pw, you,ll end up paying ten euro approx, and you must have a rent book.
THEY must have some limits otherwise landlords would just up the rent for someone on welfare.
Do not bother viewing flat x unless you are sure the landlords take ra tenants.
centrecare will give you a list of flats take are rented under ra system.

ricman wrote: »

WELL you need to be on the housing list first, to even apply for ra.
Google rent allowance limits dublin ie.Getting on the housing list is easy, bring some id,fill in a form, from housing dept wood quay.

It would appear that you are right or at least the CWO agrees with you. But it does contradict the info on the official websites as gambiaman has posted.
I got the housing list forms today & ya there isn't that much to it but that's not really the point. It's just annoying doing something extra & pointless that it would seem that I shouldn't have to do.

I accept that they must have limits in the amount they give people but not limits on the rent that someone pays to a landlord. Well definitely not levels that are so limiting. I don't think that landlords would put rents for people on welfare.

About the €95 pw & I'll pay ~€10. We're a couple, so max is €143 & you have to pay at least €24 towards rent.

H8GHOTI

Ever2010 wrote: »

A houseshare will only allow you 398 euro a month in dublin/Wicklow - I share with my boyfreind and our rent on the house is 1000 a month - which pays our landlady's mortgage just about. I do think it's ridiculous that they wouldn't allow me the 398 and I top that up each month from my dole money.

My landlady would be happy enough to do a 'fake' lease but I don't really want to go down that route. I can afford the rent and bills each month with little to nothing left over but that's all the dole is meant to do really. I'm lucky that I've always had good savings, plus I'm hoping that unemployment is only going to be a temporary situation - so I can get back to earning my own money again!

Is it just the two of ye in the house? If so I think your max level would be €186 pw. Which should be €806 pm ((186x52) / 12). If it's you + bf + others then your right with €398.

Ever2010

H8GHOTI wrote: »

Is it just the two of ye in the house? If so I think your max level would be €186 pw. Which should be €806 pm ((186x52) / 12). If it's you + bf + others then your right with €398.

Yeah it's just the two of us in a three bed place. But we'd be putting ourselves down as 'flatmates' as we split the rent in half, so it will still be the 398 a month.

We get by so it's not bad!