A tale of two cities, Waterford and Galway

merlante

There is an interesting article in the Irish Times today:
Rich paying for downturn but 'it doesn't feel like that'
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0520/1224270712006.html

I was surprised to find the following comment:
"Galway and Waterford had been at a similar level of development to each other in the 1960s, he noted, but since then Galway has thrived while Waterford has been less successful. It was worth asking whether this was because Galway was home to two world-class theatre companies."

Personally, I think it's down to the following factors, in this order,
1) NUIG has more students studying more varied subject areas than WIT, which gives Galway a cultural and commercial advantage.
2) Subsidies for the west, and government responsiveness to the needs of the west vis a vis the south east and Waterford.
3) The weak urban structure of the west makes Galway (with the possible exception to Sligo) the only urban centre that feels like a 'city'. And basically the fact that in many areas, Galway has no competition, whereas competition is fierce in the south east for all manner of investment and services, and the politcal scene is a lot more factious.
4) The underappreciation of Waterfordians of what the city has to offer versus the 'county pride' you seem to get in places like Galway.

It is worth pointing out, that Galway only overtook Waterford in population in the early 80's, but has grown very strongly ever since.

Yes Boss

Galway is a medical device industry centre with high-skilled jobs and all that go with it. Waterford on the other hand was dependent for years on heavy manufacturing which is disappearing.

They also did not suffer from serial objectors which restricted growth! They gave him a degree and sent him to Waterford

rasper

because Waterford demanded and got far less than Galway got in results from its politicians, don't agree with system as its far too corrupt but it was down to Waterford relecting muppet after muppet and the end result is after 15 years of growth we are lucky to have a bypass and a second bridge.
We get the goverment we deserve

gscully

I think you're missing the obvious! Coincidence?

Brendan McCann left Galway and arrived in Waterford.

Edit: Yes Boss has alluded to the same point

Yes Boss

gscully wrote: »

I think you're missing the obvious! Coincidence?

Brendan McCann left Galway and arrived in Waterford.

Edit: Yes Boss has alluded to the same point

It certainly didn't help matters!!

gscully

Yes Boss wrote: »

They also did not suffer from cereal objectors which restricted growth!

Maybe they'd forgotten how good they taste?

bullpost

I think another couple of factors would the fact that Galway is in the West of Ireland which is a huge tourist draw. Waterfords industrial past also meant it went into decline from the 70's onwards when the traditional industrial base of the city started to die away. Galway is a more attractive city due to its focus on cultural and artistic activities.
I think though that Waterford, which has a much richer history than Galway, could turn it around and reverse the decline.

Bards

one Word - University

Galway was able to attract adcanced manufacturing namely medical devices and ICT companies due to the prescense of a University

Not only that, but the West also got the IDA/Political establishment going to battle for them, while at the same time had the added advantage of the Shannon Development Authority promoting the region.

how could the S.E compete with all this. it would be like sending a batallion of one armed men into battle. the outcome would be a forgone conclusion.

we still have it today. The S.E is loosing a functioning Rail Line while the West gets one re-opened.

Yes Boss

gscully wrote: »

Maybe they'd forgotten how good they taste?

I need to think with my head and not my stomach

mike65

Galway is sexy (somehow), Waterford isn't and never will be. They have the races at Ballybrit we have a few dog-eared meets at Tramore, they have a university we don't, they have had continual Ministerial representation, we haven't. They have the fawning media (esp RTE) and political classes at thier beck and call, we don't.

We have Brendan McCann, they don't!

gscully

mike65 wrote: »

Galway is sexy (somehow), Waterford isn't and never will be. They have the races at Ballybrit we have a few dog-eared meets at Tramore, they have a university we don't, they have had continual Ministerial representation, we haven't. They have the fawning media (esp RTE) and political classes at thier beck and call, we don't.

We have Brendan McCann, they don't!

Galway gave the Seoige sisters to RTE...we gave them Carrie Crowley!

Amazotheamazing

Galway has a university, massive advantage but more importantly, it can draw from the entire west coast from Clare up as it's hinterland. Add in the tourist money and there's not much comparison. While a lot of Waterford's hinterland would be similar demographics to Galway's, they can go to other large towns or Dublin, most of the towns above Galway are wastelands by comparison.

jmcc

Waterford has been sidelined ever since that moron DeValera and his "dancing at the crossroads" mob of neo-rural gobsh*tes got into power. Waterford used to be a major port but they seriously wrecked things and the unions didn't exactly help things here either. As a result a backwater bunch of villages masquerading as a town overtook Waterford because its gombeen politicians whinged loudest. From what I remember, De La Salle college was offered to the state as a university in th 1940s (I think) but again the idiots in Dublin didn't want to upset the status quo.

Regards...jmcc

merlante

mike65 wrote: »

Galway is sexy (somehow), Waterford isn't and never will be. They have the races at Ballybrit we have a few dog-eared meets at Tramore, they have a university we don't, they have had continual Ministerial representation, we haven't. They have the fawning media (esp RTE) and political classes at thier beck and call, we don't.

We have Brendan McCann, they don't!

Interestingly, Tramore used to be the premier meet in Ireland. First week long race meet in the UK, if I remember what I've been told. It's also interesting, that Tramore used to be one of the premier seaside attractions in Ireland, whereas nowadays RTE go to Salthill for the sunny day vox pop. Waterford's light opera festival is much older than Wexford's festival, yet Waterford's one has drifted into near obscurity. You could spend a long time trying to figure out the reasons for all this.

bullpost

jmcc wrote: »

Waterford has been sidelined ever since that moron DeValera and his "dancing at the crossroads" mob of neo-rural gobsh*tes got into power. Waterford use to be a major port but they serious wrecked things and the unions didn't exactly help things here either. As a results a backwater bunch of villages masquerading as a town overtook Waterford because its gombeen politicians whinged loudest. From what I remember, De La Salle college was offer to the state as a university in th 1940s (I think) but again the idiots in Dublin didn't want to upset the status quo.

Regards...jmcc

Think you hit the nail on the head. Waterford has never been a Fianna Fail town .

Cabaal

mike65 wrote: »

Galway is sexy (somehow), Waterford isn't and never will be.

Thats it, put very simply
A university has nothing to do with it, Galway just has a feeling and its very easy going which makes it an attractive place to visit and work in.

Waterford just comes across as dull and gray in comparison, its the John Major of Citys in this country

KingLoser

Cabaal wrote: »

A university has nothing to do with it, Galway just has a feeling and its very easy going which makes it an attractive place to visit and work in.

I'd say that's largely down to the huge student population really..

merlante

KingLoser wrote: »

I'd say that's largely down to the huge student population really..

Yeah, I mean it's all about the people and profile, really. And the people create the profile over time. In many ways, Waterford has more natural advantages, but Waterford people are a pessimistic lot, and we don't have quite enough students to liven up the natives. We don't really believe that Waterford is anything special, therefore neither does anybody else. Pity, because the quality of life in the Waterford area is exceptional and the historical aspects are impressive.

Cabaal

KingLoser wrote: »

I'd say that's largely down to the huge student population really..

Nah, its down to the large tourism numbers, you can't walk 10metres without meeting a america, german etc who's visiting Ireland, the place has a buzz about it, good trade in B&B's, Hotels and Hostels and most of them are very central and yet very reasonable.

Its also very popular for conferences if you remember alot of the union meetings over the past few months have been in the Radison in Galway as have the likes of the Irish Blog Awards

dayshah

There is no single reason. I think Galway makes the most of what its got (and fair play to them). Only two counties have a city and a Gaeltacht, Galway and Waterford. Galway make the most of their Gaeltacht, we don't

Galway doesn't aspire to be something else. People in Waterford are willing to sell Waterford's soul for a M&S. In Galway they keep their soul and make money out of it.

I think the biggest factor is industry. Waterford was unlucky in not having the growth industries located here like medical devices and IT. It doesn't matter how nice our shopping centres are, industry is what gives people the money to spend.

Also get over blaming Brendan McCann. He was just one person, and he gave good grounds for his objections. I suppose it would be better if we had 10 ghost estates and more vacant commercial property.

Psychedelic

There was a Phoenix column a few months ago all about Galway, and he mentioned that a previous Minister for Tourism who was from Galway (can't recall his name) allocated something like 80% of the tourism budget on Galway during his term as Minister for Tourism. I think this was during the 80's or 90's.

Does anyone else notice that TV3 News love Galway for some reason. Practically every day there is a reporter in Galway for something or other.

rayc

KingLoser wrote: »

I'd say that's largely down to the huge student population really..

Cabaal wrote: »

Nah, its down to the large tourism numbers, you can't walk 10metres without meeting a america, german etc who's visiting Ireland, the place has a buzz about it, good trade in B&B's, Hotels and Hostels and most of them are very central and yet very reasonable.

Its also very popular for conferences if you remember alot of the union meetings over the past few months have been in the Radison in Galway as have the likes of the Irish Blog Awards

It's down to a lot of factors really, and while I agree that Galway definitely has a buzz to the city, I don't think you can just say that the 'buzz' mystically emanates from the ground and that's that. Nothing can be done! Student and tourist populations have a huge impact on this I think. (I've always thought, in terms of night-life, that Kilkenny city/town had a somewhat similar buzz and I also put that down to the visitor/tourist influx) Undoubtedly a university does bring with it more knowledge-based industries which also naturally changes the profile of the population.

Waterford really has a huge amount going for it in terms of tourism, I think it really has everything tourists generally look for but I don't know if it's been advertised enough, hopefully the barrier of poor road infrastructure will help in this regard.

fricatus

bullpost wrote: »

Think you hit the nail on the head. Waterford has never been a Fianna Fail town .

Couldn't have put it better myself! Who upgraded WRTC unilaterally to WIT? It wasn't Zanu FF!

Cabaal wrote: »

Thats it, put very simply
A university has nothing to do with it, Galway just has a feeling and its very easy going which makes it an attractive place to visit and work in.

Waterford just comes across as dull and gray in comparison, its the John Major of Citys in this country

A university has everything to do with it Cabaal... why do you think Galway has such an attractive, easy-going air about it? It's because of the large student population.

Ever read the Rough Guides or Lonely Planet? Wherever they talk about, be it Bologna, Austin, Salamanca, Lille, Freiburg, wherever, they always say something along the lines of "the city has a lively, relaxed feel, due to its large student population".

I think it's something that can be taken as a given, but it's not everything. Galway benefits from having the university campus practically in the city centre. If I had my way, WIT would be moved to the centre of town - really, the Good Shepherd should have just been the start of things.

It's worth noting that Galway was smaller than Waterford when the ITs were set up, yet Galway got an IT even though it already had its university. Political favouritism definitely has a lot to do with it - and didn't Michael D Higgins spend something like 60% of his department's budget in Galway (either in one year, or during his tenure, I don't know - but you get the picture!).

The fragmented nature of the county structure around Waterford is also to blame. Galway city is surrounded by two consituencies where all nine TDs bat for the city. We've got only four TDs of our own, and half of them are too busy working for Dungarvan, and then within 10 minutes of the city you've got people whose agendas are to support Kilkenny or Wexford (and understandably of course!).

What we really need is an 051 constituency...

mike65

Psychedelic wrote: »

There was a Phoenix column a few months ago all about Galway, and he mentioned that a previous Minister for Tourism who was from Galway (can't recall his name) allocated something like 80% of the tourism budget on Galway during his term as Minister for Tourism. I think this was during the 80's or 90's.

I presume thats "national treasure", Michael D Higgins who was Minsiter for Culture (and maybe tourism was thrown in) and yes his snaffling up of the depts budget was infamous even at the time.

bullpost

I think the layout of Galway City is more intimate and allows for a better vibe than the more chaotic layout of Waterford. If you look at the Quay and the volumes of traffic flowing through Waterford its noisy and unattractive.

Amazotheamazing

Self fulfilling prophecy though, tourists hear Galway is great, tourists go to Galway. Coming from Limerick (although I spend a good bit of time in Galway) I've no idea how Waterford would change it.

abouttobebanned

Look at all of the major towns and cities, they all have busy squares.

John Robert's Square is underused, mainly because there are no bars with outside seating etc.

Yes Boss

dayshah wrote: »

Also get over blaming Brendan McCann. He was just one person, and he gave good grounds for his objections. I suppose it would be better if we had 10 ghost estates and more vacant commercial property.

He was not the only reason, but he did play a major role is capital moving out of the City, when our own developers saw Waterford as a no go zone as far as planning was concerned, they spent it elsewhere!:(

jmcc

fricatus wrote: »

Couldn't have put it better myself! Who upgraded WRTC unilaterally to WIT? It wasn't Zanu FF!

It was a Labour pol. Apparently WIT was to be the only college upgraded to an IT but Cork and Dublin colleges started whining about it.

Political favouritism definitely has a lot to do with it - and didn't Michael D Higgins spend something like 60% of his department's budget in Galway (either in one year, or during his tenure, I don't know - but you get the picture!).

Labour = FF lite.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

bullpost wrote: »

I think the layout of Galway City is more intimate

That's because it is a village.

If you look at the Quay and the volumes of traffic flowing through Waterford its noisy and unattractive.

That's because Waterford is a city.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

dayshah wrote: »

Also get over blaming Brendan McCann. He was just one person, and he gave good grounds for his objections. I suppose it would be better if we had 10 ghost estates and more vacant commercial property.

McCann was a major liability for Waterford developments.

Regards...jmcc

abouttobebanned

can you not reply to everyone in one post? And cut out the regards nonsense?

jmcc

abouttobebanned wrote: »

can you not reply to everyone in one post? And cut out the regards nonsense?

No. I think that good posts deserve their own reply. There are exceptions.

Regards...jmcc

dayshah

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Look at all of the major towns and cities, they all have busy squares.

John Robert's Square is underused, mainly because there are no bars with outside seating etc.

Well we lost Egans , but it would be nice if planning allowed for a few pubs there. I think you'd need at least 3/4 decent sized ones to allow for a buzz feel, all with outdoor seating.

Regarding ITs, Cork RTC gave up a stink, and when Micheal 'langer' Martin became minister for education he upgraded Cork, and then the rest. It totally undid the benefit. I'd love to send all the ITs, except DIT and WIT, to being call RTC.

As for Michael D., the establishment of TG4 skews the figures, but they did make the most of their linguistic heritage, and we should do the same.

bullpost

I think if the will was there the Quays have huge potential.
With the new bridge and other ways of diverting traffic away from the city centre theres no reason not to convert the quays into a major leisure area. The road area could be reduced - allowing restaurants and bars to have lots of outdoor seating. Possibility of boardwalks and other attractions could be looked into as well.

merlante

bullpost wrote: »

I think if the will was there the Quays have huge potential.
With the new bridge and other ways of diverting traffic away from the city centre theres no reason not to convert the quays into a major leisure area. The road area could be reduced - allowing restaurants and bars to have lots of outdoor seating. Possibility of boardwalks and other attractions could be looked into as well.

You've hit the nail on the head there, we have a potentially magnificent waterfront, which is under-utilised and under-emphasised.

I've said it on other threads, but I think the comparison with Galway puts this in sharp relief: we have to transform the Quay and the Mall, first off by getting rid of parking from both these streets and making them one lane of traffic each way. Then we need to make the Quay and the Mall the cultural centre of the city -- which the council, in fairness, are making strides towards.

With the historical core done up, as promised, and the commercial area as is (for now), the city would have 3 separate dimensions to it. There is too much traffic on the Quay and on the Mall, and far too much parking. I think that making the thoroughfare from the junction to Rice bridge one lane each side for traffic and no parking, would open up the streets for people and tourists. The stretch of street would look very wide, and massive on the Quay, like it did in the 18th and 19th centuries, and not choked with traffic and parking. I think the affect would be very impressive, even before anything is built cafe or restaurant wise by the river.

With the bypass open, the Cork rd. is no longer a national primary route, and no longer serves the same function, so we should get the traffic out. Of course we should also build multi-story carparks as well to compensate for the loss of parking.

dayshah

I agree with the Quays idea, and I mentioned outdoors seating myself. Lets not loose the run of ourselves re outdoor seating, we are still Ireland.

Another thing the quay allows for is the Marina practically in the city centre. As well as attracting cruises, maybe we could attract boat owners?

If I had lots of money this is what I'd do:

1) Get rid of car parks on the quay. Instead cover them with grass and put benches there.
2) Excavate Ballybricken. Dig up all the mud, put an underground car park there, and then cover it back over again, so you'd never know there was a car park underneath. Maybe do the same at the Glen.

This way the Quay/Mall would be the 'leisure' part of the centre, and the rest would be the more practical shopping area.