Transferring property while lien is on deeds

summereire

Hi, I'd be very grateful for any ideas on this:

1) My parents split up
2) My father paid what he understood to be all, or at least very close to all, the solicitor's fees for the case in advance of them being due
3) The solicitor came back with a final bill that was three times more than expected which my father can't afford
4) Every other solicitor he's talked to thinks it's a joke, saying its many times more than what they would charge, and there are errors in the way it is being calculated so it is due before the courts
5) In the mean time my father was due to pass on some land to me but can't because this solicitor has a lien on the deeds and keeps delaying proceedings

Our current solicitor doesn't have any ideas on what to do, however they are not property solicitors.

My question is, considering the deeds were only in his safe keeping and he has other deeds in his possession of my father's business that more than cover the amount outstanding is there any way that this property transfer can go ahead?

I know this isn't a legal advice forum - I'm just more looking for direction or resources - I'm just thinking that there must be some way here to transfer the property either without the deeds or for him to give them to use for the transfer and even take them back after.

He refuses to even talk about it and just says no and handled the case really badly in the first place, leaving out key information, and resulting in a very bad outcome for my father.

I know there are laws like this but am not sure if they apply to deeds and relate to a case like this:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1964/en/act/pub/0016/sec0105.html#zza16y1964s105

My father's very old now and the stress of all of this is really having an impact on his health - we're worried this won't be wrapped up while he's still alive.

Thank you in advance for any ideas on this one.

maidhc

The answer to your question is that yes, most likely it is possible assuming
- the title is registered in the land registry.
- you are only transferring a site.

summereire

Thanks Maidhc for your quick reply. Yes- the property is registered and it is only land, with just some foundations for an old commercial building on it.

How would it be possible to do the transfer, by what route? I'm very grateful for any ideas you might have.

maidhc

summereire wrote: »

Thanks Maidhc for your quick reply. Yes- the property is registered and it is only land, with just some foundations for an old commercial building on it.

How would it be possible to do the transfer, by what route? I'm very grateful for any ideas you might have.

I don't think I am breaking any rules by saying all you need is the Folio number.

You can get this from doing a search with the land registry (www.prai.ie). The you need to get the portion transferred marked by an engineer and have it transferred to your name.

Most competent solicitors can do this.

BTW up until last christmas this would have been harder, but now that the land cert is no longer a legal document holding "deeds" is not really security for anything.

summereire

I see, that's great news. Of course I appreciate this is just some general info about what the options are and I'll be getting a solicitor to do all this so they'll give specific advice.

I'm sorry if this is a stupid question but what are deeds exactly vs land certs etc and are they obsolete now that there are land folios? I've already got a certified copy of the folio so that part's ready.

When a solicitor transfers the property obviously they'll work out stamp duty etc but apart from that what actually is done? Do they make new deeds, or is this obselete, or do they just fill in a form for the land registry?

And when we finally do get the deeds back- will they be of any value or purpose?

maidhc

summereire wrote: »

I'm sorry if this is a stupid question but what are deeds exactly vs land certs etc and are they obsolete now that there are land folios? I've already got a certified copy of the folio so that part's ready.

When a solicitor transfers the property obviously they'll work out stamp duty etc but apart from that what actually is done? Do they make new deeds, or is this obselete, or do they just fill in a form for the land registry?

And when we finally do get the deeds back- will they be of any value or purpose?

In registered title (i.e. land registry) the primary deed is now what is stored on the government database. I normally tell clients it isn't a million miles removed from owning a car.

Unregistered title is an older form of title and lends itself to the existance of a bundle of title documents (or deeds).

As solicitors (and banks) were used to dealing with bundles of documents there existed a "land cert" which related to registered title, but essentially aped unregistered title in that it had to be produced if there was any dealing with the land.

Solicitors either self assess the stamp duty or get it adjudicated by the Revenue. They then submit an application to the land registry to have the owner changed and any charge or mortgage registered.

If you are building a house documentation such as planning, architects certificates, plans, maps, Home Bond Documentation will all form part of the "deeds"

For agricultural land where there are no buildings and no burdens on title the "deeds" are often superflous, but everything must be assessed on its merits (hence you get a solicitor!).

summereire

Thanks very much for all those tips and resources. I've called around a few solicitors and most of them seem grand about there being no deeds - it must just be that first person I called was only used to the old laws.