Frontline discussing delegation of Budgetary power to the EU

Yitzhak Rabin

Its on RTE1 now.

Shockingly the vast majority of people asked were in favour of it.

sesna

Yeah shocking, given how well the buffoons in charge have steered our economy over the past decade.

Yitzhak Rabin

That indicates we need to elect better qualified, capable and honest politicians.

The key is that we could still elect them, and not have it as some unelected, unaccountable eurocrat, who may or may not have vested interests.

Yitzhak Rabin

Ha! Some woman was on shouting at Pat Kenny for not covering the Trilateral Commission! I was wondering why the CT forum was so quiet tonight!:D

My name is URL

haha.. Pat - "there's a complaints procedure, there's, you can lodge a complaint"

Personally, I dislike him and the agenda that RTE push.. I hope people do complain if they feel strongly enough about that

Yitzhak Rabin

Now, there's a documentary about Alan Greenspan and Ayn Rand, and Wall Street. It must be CT night at RTE

meglome

yekahs wrote: »

Its on RTE1 now.

Shockingly the vast majority of people asked were in favour of it.

Funny most of the people I've mentioned it to are in favour too, I'm in favour of it as well..

yekahs wrote: »

That indicates we need to elect better qualified, capable and honest politicians.
.

Indeed we do need better politicians and we need people to make better choices in who they vote for.

yekahs wrote: »

The key is that we could still elect them, and not have it as some unelected, unaccountable eurocrat, who may or may not have vested interests.

Given the choice between eurocrats from many different EU country's having possible vested interests and Fianna Fail who have been shown to have many vested interests, and who basically bankrupted the country, I'll be choosing the eurocrats.

billy the squid

Kenny's comments were false. The Broadcasting Authority will only deal with complaints in relation to material which is broadcast, not material that is not.

You can't go to the BAI because a news bulletin did not broadcast a particular issue.

While it can be accepted that a news bulletin has a limited amount of time to cover as much as possible - and may not be able to cover anything, there was no mention of this commission meeting on the RTE website, which was odd.

fontanalis

Isn't it more oversight form the EU than delegation to the EU? Either way, is it worse than Brian Lenihan, Brian Cowen, Charlie McCreevy and Bertie Aherne trying to buy votes?

Richard tea

Just watched the show on rte player. Im not impressed with pat's response to the woman about RTE's lack of coverage on the Trilateral commission.:mad: Did any main stream media cover it here

As for giving budgetary power to the EU, Now you hardly thought the Lisbon treaty was going to be a benefit to the people I cant wait to see what other changes the treaty will bring.

meglome

Richard tea wrote: »

As for giving budgetary power to the EU, Now you hardly thought the Lisbon treaty was going to be a benefit to the people I cant wait to see what other changes the treaty will bring.

Not actually budgetary power is it. Seeing as they are giving us lots of cash they want to make sure we're not going to fúck up again. They did tell us how we were running things was a mistake and they were told what to do with themselves, now the worm has turned.
And how did the Lisbon treaty make Fianna Fail etc bankrupt the country exactly? We spent years getting into this mess but somehow the Lisbon treaty from several months ago is to blame, makes perfect sense.

Di0genes

yekahs wrote: »

That indicates we need to elect better qualified, capable and honest politicians.

Or alternatively we could have unicorns run the economy.

(Clue both of our suggestions are mythical beings)

The key is that we could still elect them,

And look who the people have elected.

and not have it as some unelected, unaccountable eurocrat, who may or may not have vested interests.

And you're saying the current crop of elected idiots don't have vested interests?

Yitzhak Rabin

Di0genes wrote: »

Or alternatively we could have unicorns run the economy.

(Clue both of our suggestions are mythical beings)



And look who the people have elected.



And you're saying the current crop of elected idiots don't have vested interests?

Flawed as our system is, I am uncomfortable with the notion of our budget being controlled by an unelected official.

You may hold disdain for the general public, but I think decisions which affect the public need to be made by the public.

Honest politicians are a rarity, but they exist, they won't if left to an unaccountable elite.

No, I absolutely despise about 80% of the current TDs, but I still would rather have a say as to who controls my pay, taxes, and fiscal policy.

Di0genes

yekahs wrote: »

Flawed as our system is, I am uncomfortable with the notion of our budget being controlled by an unelected official.

Apparently according to your OP you're in the majority

You may hold disdain for the general public, but I think decisions which affect the public need to be made by the public.

You mean the public who made up the audience of the program you disagree with?

Honest politicians are a rarity, but they exist, they won't if left to an unaccountable elite.

Why not? Do you elect your local Doctor? Garda?

No, I absolutely despise about 80% of the current TDs, but I still would rather have a say as to who controls my pay, taxes, and fiscal policy.

Despite seeing what the current shower have done with your pay?

studiorat

yekahs wrote: »

Flawed as our system is, I am uncomfortable with the notion of our budget being controlled by an unelected official.

You may hold disdain for the general public, but I think decisions which affect the public need to be made by the public.

Honest politicians are a rarity, but they exist, they won't if left to an unaccountable elite.

No, I absolutely despise about 80% of the current TDs, but I still would rather have a say as to who controls my pay, taxes, and fiscal policy.

I dunno, the whole culture of politics in Ireland is flawed. TD's seem to spend most of their time either keeping their asses in office or doing work that really should be done by civil servants and/or local council. I recently heard a story about a TD applying for and then delivering a Passport for one of their constituents. Not that they should'nt be 'serving' the people but it's hardly suprising they can't run the country when they need to do all the rest of the stuff that goes along with being a member of government in Ireland.

Here's an instance, Brian Cowan, his father ran a pub in 'de town' where the family were pillars of local government and commerce. So the people of Laois/Offaly elect him to parliment, most likely on a ticket of being their representative, yet he ends up as Minister for Health, Minister for Foriegn affairs as well as Minister for Finance at different stages. The man studied Law at UCD for christ sake!!! What the hell would he know about Health services or Finance, or the Transport system for that matter?

Members of the Dail are elected at local level and then end up representing the whole country in matters in which they have no expertise. Our current Health Minister, was a bloody school teacher! There's probably friggin' hosptial porters that know more about the Health Care system.

The problem is you don't actually vote for who runs the system, taxes, health care etc. You vote for a local canditate who is then appointed by their party leader to their relative ministerial position.

We might be in a better position if it was a doctor who was minister for health and an economist who was minister for finance. It seems to work for the giant corporations, why wouldn't it work for a country?

Yitzhak Rabin

Di0genes wrote: »

Apparently according to your OP you're in the majority

I presume you meant minority? But yes, according to the vox pop on grafton street it seems so! Baffling to me, but I put it down to a knee-jerk response to the situation we're in. I think if people really thought about it, they would prefer to elect their officials, rather than not.

Why not? Do you elect your local Doctor? Garda?

They are people who are still accountable. There are systems and redress procedures in place to challenge those people if they 'f*ck you over' for want of a better phrase.

Despite seeing what the current shower have done with your pay?

I accept my paycut. Despite the fact that I can't strike, I still wouldn't even if I could. Perhaps its a misplaced desire for the greater good. But I think that if we are to make ourselves competitive and solvent, then reductions in pay were neccessary. Obviously there are alot more nuances about this issue that I could talk about, but for the most part I think the pay reductions were neccesary.

But I guess that wasn't your point, it was that I can do nothing about it? Well in an unelected officials case then yes thats true, but with a democracy I can vote against the current system, and if enough people agree with me, then the politicians would be out of a job.

But just for the record, I don't agree fully with our system, but I think delegation of fiscal matters to unelected and unaccountable third parties is not the way to go.

studiorat

yekahs wrote: »

But just for the record, I don't agree fully with our system, but I think delegation of fiscal matters to unelected and unaccountable third parties is not the way to go.

If they were unelected at least we could fire them if they made a mess of it.

Yitzhak Rabin

studiorat wrote: »

I dunno, the whole culture of politics in Ireland is flawed. TD's seem to spend most of their time either keeping their asses in office or doing work that really should be done by civil servants and/or local council. I recently heard a story about a TD applying for and then delivering a Passport for one of their constituents. Not that they should'nt be 'serving' the people but it's hardly suprising they can't run the country when they need to do all the rest of the stuff that goes along with being a member of government in Ireland.

Here's an instance, Brian Cowan, his father ran a pub in 'de town' where the family were pillars of local government and commerce. So the people of Laois/Offaly elect him to parliment, most likely on a ticket of being their representative, yet he ends up as Minister for Health, Minister for Foriegn affairs as well as Minister for Finance at different stages. The man studied Law at UCD for christ sake!!! What the hell would he know about Health services or Finance, or the Transport system for that matter?

Members of the Dail are elected at local level and then end up representing the whole country in matters in which they have no expertise. Our current Health Minister, was a bloody school teacher! There's probably friggin' hosptial porters that know more about the Health Care system.

The problem is you don't actually vote for who runs the system, taxes, health care etc. You vote for a local canditate who is then appointed by their party leader to their relative ministerial position.

We might be in a better position if it was a doctor who was minister for health and an economist who was minister for finance. It seems to work for the giant corporations, why wouldn't it work for a country?

I actually fully agree with pretty much everything you said here. Couldn't have put it better myself.

I think we should move to a system like Sweden whereby our TDs look after the running of the country, and the local issues are left to local councillors.

Basically, less Jackie Healy-Rae's and O' Donoghues, and more people like Leo Varadkar, Eamon Ryan and Brian Lenihan(the b*stard who cut my pay!)

But going down a route whereby, our officials are unelected, is not the way to go.

Di0genes

yekahs wrote: »

I think if people really thought about it, they would prefer to elect their officials, rather than not.

So you think people who actually think about things agree about you they just don't say so, and when asked give a completely opposite answer?

They are people who are still accountable. There are systems and redress procedures in place to challenge those people if they 'f*ck you over' for want of a better phrase.

I'm sorry have you opened a paper in the last 30 years?

But just for the record, I don't agree fully with our system, but I think delegation of fiscal matters to unelected and unaccountable third parties is not the way to go.

And what is?

Yitzhak Rabin

Di0genes wrote: »

So you think people who actually think about things agree about you they just don't say so, and when asked give a completely opposite answer?

Perhaps its presumptous of me, I could be wrong, but I think how you ask a question has alot to do with it. Say you ask someone, who do you think would have a better chance of coming up with a coherent budget, Dáil Eireann or the EU? or Would you rather you elected the people who come up with the budget, or leave it up to unelected officials? Similar questions, but would receive very different answers.

I'm sorry have you opened a paper in the last 30 years?

You mentioned 2 groups Gardaí and Doctors. For guards there's the ombusman who

Complaints received 2007: 2,084
Complaints received 2008: 2,681
Complaints received 2009: 2,110

http://www.gardaombudsman.ie/gsoc-garda-ombudsman-CaseThroughput-April2010.htm

There's also stats on the outcome of those complaints aswell. The point being there are procedures you can follow.

The second group doctors. There is the medical council complaints procedure, here's the stats for 2009 http://www.medicalcouncil.ie/Professional-Standards/Statistics/Statistics-2009/

And what is?

I think we should move to a system like Sweden whereby our TDs look after the running of the country, and the local issues are left to local councillors.

Basically, less Jackie Healy-Rae's and O' Donoghues, and more people like Leo Varadkar, Eamon Ryan and Brian Lenihan(the b*stard who cut my pay!)

But going down a route whereby, our officials are unelected, is not the way to go

...and since you're a fan of the yes/no questions

Do you believe you should get to elect your officials in charge of budgets and fiscal policy?

Torakx

Di0genes wrote: »

So you think people who actually think about things agree about you they just don't say so, and when asked give a completely opposite answer?




I'm sorry have you opened a paper in the last 30 years?





And what is?

Unfotunatly most people are distracted by other things in their lives.And are not taught in school how the system works in reality.
The reason we are not shown how the system works is because its ment to be there to control everything including our choices.
The average person believes political corruption is for the most part internal and minor.If they all realised what was going on there would be chaos and that is not acceptable to the government and thats understandable i suppose when you consider now the alternatives left and the ones who are causing this system to be maintained.When your misleading a nation its better to have your crimes known after you have gotten all you can out of it.
50 years i think is ussually the American waiting time for documented and planned government crimes to be released to the public iirc.

Imo the reason alot of people might prefer europe to rule us is because thats what they are lead to believe.Im pretty sure most havent been fully informed about the situation.Its quite aparrent now at this stage of the game.
This is where the sheeple comment makes sense to me.
We are pretty much cattle for the state.The question i have is who really owns the state?
Ive been wondering for a while now because im not sure if its the Irish,English,Europe or some other entity.
There is rumours the English royal family get dues paid to them from the USA which i still havent researched so id like that answer if anyoone has done so already.

fontanalis

Torakx wrote: »

Unfotunatly most people are distracted by other things in their lives.And are not taught in school how the system works in reality.
The reason we are not shown how the system works is because its ment to be there to control everything including our choices.
The average person believes political corruption is for the most part internal and minor.If they all realised what was going on there would be chaos and that is not acceptable to the government and thats understandable i suppose when you consider now the alternatives left and the ones who are causing this system to be maintained.When your misleading a nation its better to have your crimes known after you have gotten all you can out of it.
50 years i think is ussually the American waiting time for documented and planned government crimes to be released to the public iirc.

Imo the reason alot of people might prefer europe to rule us is because thats what they are lead to believe.Im pretty sure most havent been fully informed about the situation.Its quite aparrent now at this stage of the game.
This is where the sheeple comment makes sense to me.
We are pretty much cattle for the state.The question i have is who really owns the state?
Ive been wondering for a while now because im not sure if its the Irish,English,Europe or some other entity.
There is rumours the English royal family get dues paid to them from the USA which i still havent researched so id like that answer if anyoone has done so already.

So by your first paragraph do you claim you know how the system works i reality? But then you say you don't know who runs the country.
To quote Alan Partridge it's "disconcertinly vague".

Yitzhak Rabin

fontanalis wrote: »

So by your first paragraph do you claim you know how the system works i reality? But then you say you don't know who runs the country.
To quote Alan Partridge it's "disconcertinly vague".

I like Alan Partridges take on the Frontline

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqdZOGEU1qw

Torakx

fontanalis wrote: »

So by your first paragraph do you claim you know how the system works i reality? But then you say you don't know who runs the country.
To quote Alan Partridge it's "disconcertinly vague".

I didnt claim to know, i claimed the majority dont know.And i never siad i dont know who runs the country.I said i dont know who owns the state.
And yes i am part of the sheeple too because i am also lead to an extent by the conspiracy theory new age movement types.I am however very aware of this and am also researching CT's for myself and discussing them here so i may sift out the crap that is shoved under our noses by either left or right side and come to an informed decision.I do play devils advocate alot so i guess it can give others the idea that i am less skeptical than in reality.