An Independent Governing Body for Irish Mixed Martial Arts?

baz123

Should there in your opinion be an independent governing body for mixed martial arts in Ireland?

MrStuffins

Like these guys, awesome!

unknown13

Doesn't IMAC oversee all martial arts in Ireland

MrStuffins

unknown13 wrote: »

Doesn't IMAC oversee all martial arts in Ireland

They only come into play when things get a bit hairy!

Martin Walker

baz123 wrote: »

Should there in your opinion be an independent governing body for mixed martial arts in Ireland?

This is a well discussed question.
Hard to say really. It would be cool if there was but to be honest we dont need one. So in my opinion no.

baz123

unknown13 wrote: »

Doesn't IMAC oversee all martial arts in Ireland

as far as i am aware of they do not include 'mma' as something they represent-just alot of the individual diciplines that are included in mma

baz123

Martin Walker wrote: »

This is a well discussed question.
Hard to say really. It would be cool if there was but to be honest we dont need one. So in my opinion no.

was tryin to find something on it here Marty-kinda remember something from a while back but could not locate anything etc etc

DubMedic

Usually a thread starter gives his opinion/stance on the subject.

What do you think OP?.

Clive

unknown13 wrote: »

Doesn't IMAC oversee all martial arts in Ireland

No - they style themselves as such, but it's untrue.

baz123

DubMedic wrote: »

Usually a thread starter gives his opinion/stance on the subject.

What do you think OP?.

Honestly,i started the thread to hear the opinions from people involved in Irish mma and am just making my mind up about it. pro's and con's i would say and alot of it is 'what if?'

juijitsu black

In my opinion YES! But it will not happen because there are too many cheifs, too many people who want to be the main man and too many people thinking if I join an organisation I wont make as much money on my next show. Every show I have been to is usually run well, the last show I was at was the strabane show a few weeks ago and it was run well with fighters from all over ireland. also the efr and chaos up north are great, so whos to say who will run the organisation if one ever came about, because everyone will say their show is the best and they shoul be in charge.. It would never work unless it had the backing of the irish sports council and that wont happen.

baz123

juijitsu black wrote: »

In my opinion YES! But it will not happen because there are too many cheifs, too many people who want to be the main man and too many people thinking if I join an organisation I wont make as much money on my next show. Every show I have been to is usually run well, the last show I was at was the strabane show a few weeks ago and it was run well with fighters from all over ireland. also the efr and chaos up north are great, so whos to say who will run the organisation if one ever came about, because everyone will say their show is the best and they shoul be in charge.. It would never work unless it had the backing of the irish sports council and that wont happen.

it would have to be 'Independent' ie not one of the existing clubs or promotions etc etc for it to really work imo. Why not the sports council? Any other options?

Clive

There will one day be a governing body for MMA in Ireland. It will either be formed by those within the sport or it will be imposed and populated by those without a clue.

One of the problems is that a lot of people think of a governing body for MMA in terms of a "council of promoters" which is exactly what it shouldn't be. Of course there are a large number of coaches who are also promoters, which muddies the water even more. Many of the things I would want a governing body to bring in would not be popular with promoters.

John Ferguson

What is the state re governing bodies in other countries??

Clive wrote: »

Many of the things I would want a governing body to bring in would not be popular with promoters.

Do tell

Martin Walker

juijitsu black wrote: »

In my opinion YES! But it will not happen because there are too many cheifs, too many people who want to be the main man and too many people thinking if I join an organisation I wont make as much money on my next show.

This is not the reason why there is no NGB. Having a promotion recognised by a NGB will not change how much money the show will make.
The problem is that MMA is not seen as a legitamate sport in the eyes of the people that matter in sports councils. If its not a sport how can it have a GB?
Its not a case of just setting up a GB. You have to approach sports councils about it. Its a hell of alot of work.
I would love to see a NBG to regulate everything. But at the end of the day what difference would they make? We all use the same rules sets. All promos use the same pool of Refs. The Medics are always the same people. The clubs envolved are always the same. If i thought we really needed one i would put myself forward to do it. I would sever my ties with Red Dragon gym and Spartan Promotions and do it. But whos to say people will follow me? And if a promotion does not follow me and just goes on and puts a show on what can i do to stop them? Nothing.
People will start to move in and set up regulatory bodies. Other combat sports such as kickboxing will do it im sure. There is cash to be made from it. An example is the ISKA. They are very vocal in the UKMMA scene on how they can sanction MMA shows. Why would a Kickboxing Org try to govern MMA? You never see MMA shows like the UFC doing Kickboxing shows. In my opinion its money.
This topic comes up quite alot and i always find it very interesting. If there was a NGB what do you imagine them doing that would differ from whats going on now? What would you like them to do?

Martin Walker

fightie wrote: »

What is the state re governing bodies in other countries??

There arnt many if any.

juijitsu black

Well said Marty.:) ... these are just a few things I would like them to do( if a NGB was set up ), 1.Get rid of all these different Promotions that are money making schemes for people. 2.Have a proper program set up for the year with X amount of shows in different parts of the country in proper venues 3.Have a proper list of refs, judges etc that must be used, not just some guy who the promoter knows. 4.tBann any MMA fighter who has a fight outside the cage!! (we dont see Mayweather, Khan, Hatton etc boxing in the street. This is 1 reason MMA is not seen as a real sport). 5.Random drug testing!!! ( and theres no excuse to say it expensive, If there was 20 tests per year it would cost roughly 2 grand, thats about £100 per show at the min........... Thats just my 2 cents.. But if this did happen, I wonder how many clubs would still exist as they would not be making as much money. I think we would just have the real, honest, decent fighters/coaches etc involved, which would make this MMA world of our a better place.;):p

Jason McCabe

If there was a governing body I'm sure people would be bitching about it as well

cowzerp

I think Clive hit the nail on the head as far as it been ran by inside the community, Been ran by people outside the community does not make sense and would not help the sport-it needs to be ran by the people who love the sport and want it to grow and be safe etc..

With that said, i don't believe a Governing body is needed officially but what i would like is if there was an annual meeting where all coaches where invited and some sort of agreements could be made to make everyone on the same wavelenght.

For example-All shows run off the same Rules and if a show started up that chose not to follow the agreed unified rules then the answer is simple, Don't supply them fighters or support it in any way, this would work if the main clubs that supply fighters to shows where on board..

My recommendations would be,
A class-UFC rules minus Heel hooks.

B class-Same rules minus elbows of any kind standing or grounded.

C class-Same as B with no grounded head shots allowed, also something I'm thinking of using in future is no Knee's to the head at C class till fighters have 5+ fights at C class.

D class-Same as C with minus 5 fights with protective gear worn, shin pads and padded gloves and possibly head guards, I'm interested to see how Barry's show goes before i make an educated opinion on that.

E class, Submission wrestling with leg and body strikes, MMA league basically

What i would recommend is more D class shows to build experience, and maybe local in club shows without spectators or fights that affect records.

Jiujitsu black, clubs making money from the events is surely better than business people making the money instead? assuming both are ran safe then seeing the money going directly back into MMA has to be better for the sport in Ireland. Business people making money is fine too but the clubs are the backbone of the sport and its not a very profitable business in fairness at Irish level.

Anakin.S

I don't think Irish MMA will ever grow properly until there is a Governing body that will work with clubs to regulate rules and IMO unify the amount of titles that Ireland has.

The most important thing for a Governing body should be fighter protection, both inside and outside the ring.
It would need to give clear instructions on class groups and the rules of the class groups (like cowzerp said),
Regulated referees (most of the shows I've been to the referee standard has been high, but a few have been bad),
A membership requirement for all MMA fighters,
Perhaps a specific ‘License’ for fighters competing,
Mandatory insurance for all fighters,
Random Drug tests,

I'm sure there is a load more I'm not thinking of, but for Irish MMA to draw in a bigger crowd from outside the MMA family it needs to be regulated better.

Martin Walker

I would agree will Paul here that i dont think an official NGB is needed.
An annual meeting of Coaches and Promoters would be just as good.
Also the rules Paul has mentioned above are pretty much the standard set out on all shows.

I respectfully disagree with Anakins statement that MMA in Ireland will not grow without a Governing Body. To be honest i take offence to it. MMA in this country has developed rapidly since it first came to our shores when people like John Kavanagh, David Patterson, Tom Lamont, Paddy Mooney ect ect embraced it. They shaped the sport into what it is today without a Governing body. Why suddenly do we need one now? MMA in Ireland is in a very good place.
Today we have people like John Ferguson leading the Promotions. Cage Contender will excel in the next couple of years and bring Irish MMA to an international audience. John is something we have never had in the sport in Ireland before. An independant Promoter. With his promotions and management machine behind him things can only get better.

Like i said before i always find this argument interesting. People bang on about Governing bodies like its the Holy Grail. Most of the time its people who dont fully understand the fundemental flaws involved in trying to set one up. You only have to look across the water to England to see how a country can excel without a Governing Body. There is no Governing Body in UKMMA. Yet they have some of the finest Gyms in the world and with the return of Cage Warriors one of the biggest Promotions in Europe. We as a community have the potential to do the same. It will take time. But we will get there.

Barry.Oglesby

I've been one of the ones who thought that something should be done a while back. But the landscape has changed considerably in the last 6-8 months. There are still a lot of shows but from my point of view I'm seeing a lot more quality than before.

People are in contact all the time too, certainly I'm more in contact with everyone than I was before and I know that other coaches are the same.

I know it sounds like horse**** but I actually think topics like this have helped things. People who are thinking about putting on shows can see the coaches, fighters and fans posting here and are able to see the expectations of each group when putting on a show. I know John of Cage Contender has taken feedback from people and seeks it to improve his shows.

I also have to laugh at people saying that businessmen should be forced out. Businessmen do, wait for it, business. Coaches coach, fighters fight. I'm happy to make sure my guys get more money and better exposure from being on a show run by a business who are able to dedicate time and resources to promotion, TV deals, and fighter and spectator's concerns. Gym promotions, for all the good they do, simply can't do that.

I'll point out the elephant in the room too. I'm sure that some money goes back to the gyms involved in promoting shows in some cases, but does anyone really think that in a time of recession that a coach promoting a show doesn't want to make a profit and take money home? Next time I put on a show I'm buying a new TV and a Wii. You heard it here first. If there's some money left over I'll take the lads out on the batter. Promoters do a hell of a lot of work, they deserve their take-home pay.

DeVore

I'm an independant, outsider who is very keen on the sport. I'd do it but only under two conditions:

1. Everyone or almost everyone agreed.

2. I was replaced after a year. ie: set it up right, get it going and then get the f*ck out.

Seriously, the lack of a credible national organisation was fine for Airsoft right up until the politicians needed a few more votes and suddenly you would think the airsofters were supplying the drug gangs directly... consequently their sport has had to fight off regulation and seriously biased parties for some time.

How it would operate is something that would have to be clear before everyone agreed to proceed, so its a two stage decision.

1. Decide if you really want a national org or not.

2. Work out the details of how it would work and then decide if you want THAT national org or not.

DeV.

Martin Walker

DeVore wrote: »

I'm an independant, outsider who is very keen on the sport. I'd do it but only under two conditions:

1. Everyone or almost everyone agreed.

2. I was replaced after a year. ie: set it up right, get it going and then get the f*ck out.

Seriously, the lack of a credible national organisation was fine for Airsoft right up until the politicians needed a few more votes and suddenly you would think the airsofters were supplying the drug gangs directly... consequently their sport has had to fight off regulation and seriously biased parties for some time.

How it would operate is something that would have to be clear before everyone agreed to proceed, so its a two stage decision.

1. Decide if you really want a national org or not.

2. Work out the details of how it would work and then decide if you want THAT national org or not.

DeV.

I dont think this thread is an advertsement for a job Dev.

DeVore

Lol... I dont really need one, its 23:43 and I'm trying to negotiate a peace settlement in another forum while write a business proposal for the board of directors for the future direction of the site.

But I like to help and I hate to see anything fail for the want of a couple of hours a month. I'm just rather uniquely identifiable positive towards MMA, trustworthy (I hope!) and as not being in the "mma game in Ireland" and so may represent a kind of "switzerland" option.

(Oh and my dad was all ireland amateur champion boxer, though he thinks there is too much "hugging" in MMA. )


DeV.

DeVore

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I've been one of the ones who thought that something should be done a while back. But the landscape has changed considerably in the last 6-8 months. There are still a lot of shows but from my point of view I'm seeing a lot more quality than before.

People are in contact all the time too, certainly I'm more in contact with everyone than I was before and I know that other coaches are the same.

I know it sounds like horse**** but I actually think topics like this have helped things. People who are thinking about putting on shows can see the coaches, fighters and fans posting here and are able to see the expectations of each group when putting on a show. I know John of Cage Contender has taken feedback from people and seeks it to improve his shows.

I also have to laugh at people saying that businessmen should be forced out. Businessmen do, wait for it, business. Coaches coach, fighters fight. I'm happy to make sure my guys get more money and better exposure from being on a show run by a business who are able to dedicate time and resources to promotion, TV deals, and fighter and spectator's concerns. Gym promotions, for all the good they do, simply can't do that.

I'll point out the elephant in the room too. I'm sure that some money goes back to the gyms involved in promoting shows in some cases, but does anyone really think that in a time of recession that a coach promoting a show doesn't want to make a profit and take money home? Next time I put on a show I'm buying a new TV and a Wii. You heard it here first. If there's some money left over I'll take the lads out on the batter. Promoters do a hell of a lot of work, they deserve their take-home pay.

This is a great post.

Look at two industries that have faced similar problems to MMA.

Poker and airsoft. Both are honourable pasttimes but both are (incorrectly) portrayed as dubious and somehow involved with criminality. Both have faced bans, both have had to come up with hastily constructed national organisations in the face of idiot big-government and both have to deal with the "purist" vs the "businessmen" issue.

Poker for example, doesnt happen if a promoter doesnt set up the game. So much so that we allowed them a forum in the poker area to talk back and forth with the players. Its HUGELY improved the quality of the games put on, everything from putting on a meal for the players (it takes 14 hours a day to play these games, and 3 days long or more) to charging a fair price in.

aside from the national org issue (and yes, this is a bit off topic) but forums like Boards where neither "side" are in control do tend to make everything better. Sunlight is a great antiseptic[1] as the saying goes!

what happened in both poker and airsoft though, is that the money interests had the greatest incentive to fight the government and they set up the groups as they saw fit and obviously the players and the clubs didnt get much look in and its been an internal war since then to reach an equilibrium.


DeV.
[1]Sunshine is actually a terrible antiseptic (it promotes the growth of most bacteria) and should not be used as such.

Sid_Justice

Regardless of how honourable his intentions may be, and despite of all his administrative and organisational experience and success, I think Devore's lack of domain knowledge prevents him from being taken seriously for this (hypothetical) role.

DeVore

Well, I'm only making the offer, I have previously HAD to become involved in other fields quite simply because they chose Boards as their battleground.

Have a look at my posts in Airsoft and in Shooting too.... right now the Justice department (yes, the government!) posts their releases on Boards now, because more people read here then justice.ie

Oh and by the way, I'm perfectly happy to let this cup pass hahahah... I would like nothing more then to curl up in Malta and play games on my HD projector for the rest of my life but I'm cursed with an inability to stand by when I could help. I dont want pay and I dont want a job, I'm just making an offer of help if the need ever arises.

DeV.

ps: I dont understand the term "domain knowledge" but I suspect that anyone who has it, probably has also picked up a bias or two in gaining it and may not be impartial

pps: you guys dont necessaraily need me at all either, you could work it out online here or somewhere similar.... if you are inclusive you could build something fair yourselves, but transparency is the key.

Sid_Justice

Don't get me wrong, I'd have no say in who headed up this proposed organisation, I've no veto!

I did acknowledge your achievement in other areas in terms of administration and organisation but I just said your lack of domain knowledge would be a hindrance. However, having thought about it a bit more, maybe it would be an advantage for a potential candidate to have no baggage.

Domain knowledge would include:
Have you ever attended a MMA show in Ireland? Do you know any of the different promoters/promotions? Would you have a sense of what's lacking overall in promotions and shows currently e.g. the absence of medics on site, absence of pre-fight medical, lack of quality match making?

Do you know about the different rule systems in place? A class B class? Why different rule classes exist in the first place and what's their aim?

Do you know how IMAC views MMA and how the different sporting bodies within Ireland view it? What needs to change to improve the image of the sport?

So you're absolutely right, anyone with a lot of domain knowledge will be inherently biased towards certain people/organisations.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, usually the talk of NGO turns to murmurs and eventually fades away.

cowzerp

Sid_Justice wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, usually the talk of NGO turns to murmurs and eventually fades away.

This is not a thread for starting up a governing body, its "should be there 1 etc.." no governing body will be made through this way.



if there is a motivation to do it then it needs to be done between people in the scene who know what needs to be done and can actually use there name and support to make it happen and keep it working.

If the top 10 clubs said this is the rules we believe are safest and best for the cause of MMA then people would have to follow suit, if someone from outside of MMA was to do the same its way to easy to say there clueless and dismiss what they say.

In my opinion there is no need for a body but there is a need for dialogue and agreement on the rule sets and agreements between promotions and clubs for example if a fighter is banned that he is banned full stop, i know this is rare but at the moment a fighter could cause murder at a show then fight on another promotion the next month.

As far as safety an all goes i think all promotions use the paramedics, ambulance etc...

Matchmaking cant be changed as its not a definite science and fighters are hard to match up anyway, if a promotion is deliberately mismatching then withdraw support, no fighters no show.

Also as far as money goes, Its up to managers of fighters to agree fee's, if there unhappy with the fee its simple, just say no thanks..

Thats all for now!

DeVore

what I would suggest you do is create a known Irish MMA NGO Approved "tick" sign.

You make it so that that "tick sign" means that the promoter has adhered to previously and clearly agreed standards (ambulances present etc). Then you communicate that to the MMA fans and to the critics, you keep your NGO whiter then white enforcing it where necessary.

While I agree the various clubs and promoters need to come together and communicate but usually that fails due to trust issues. Remember, at another level these people are serious competitors.

Additionally, you wont end up with an NGO which considers, protects and represents the fans and the fighters, because they will end up with no representation if no one says "hey, what about them, who speaks for them!".

You dont need a "chairman" you need a facilitator to provide a neutral driving force so no one has a thought in the back of their mind that they are being led up the garden path.


Anyway, I am not pitching for a job, especially considering I wouldnt charge for this hahah... I'll leave the offer there, if you guys ever think you could use a neutral facilitator, give me a shout.

DeV.

baz123

cowzerp wrote: »

This is not a thread for starting up a governing body, its "should be there 1 etc.." no governing body will be made through this way.



if there is a motivation to do it then it needs to be done between people in the scene who know what needs to be done and can actually use there name and support to make it happen and keep it working.

If the top 10 clubs said this is the rules we believe are safest and best for the cause of MMA then people would have to follow suit, if someone from outside of MMA was to do the same its way to easy to say there clueless and dismiss what they say.

In my opinion there is no need for a body but there is a need for dialogue and agreement on the rule sets and agreements between promotions and clubs for example if a fighter is banned that he is banned full stop, i know this is rare but at the moment a fighter could cause murder at a show then fight on another promotion the next month.

As far as safety an all goes i think all promotions use the paramedics, ambulance etc...

Matchmaking cant be changed as its not a definite science and fighters are hard to match up anyway, if a promotion is deliberately mismatching then withdraw support, no fighters no show.

Also as far as money goes, Its up to managers of fighters to agree fee's, if there unhappy with the fee its simple, just say no thanks..

Thats all for now!

Thanks Paul,thats all this is......a discussion- nothing more.Interesting to hear peoples views

Martin Walker

Sid_Justice wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, usually the talk of NGO turns to murmurs and eventually fades away.

Im pretty sure the same thing will happen in this circumstance.

John Ferguson

Anakin.S wrote: »

I don't think Irish MMA will ever grow properly until there is a Governing body that will work with clubs to regulate rules

I don't agree Anakin. MMA in our wee country will continue to grow regardless of a governing body.

Putting it simply my view is that i don't think it will ever happen.

MMA is not like boxing where there are governing boards etc, it is i suppose closer to pro wrestling where each promotion is stand alone. With that in mind If promoters don't do what is expected from them re fighter safety, rules etc then coaches and clubs will not supply fighters to that promotion/show. I know from dealing with most of the clubs in Ireland that the coaches rightly always, always put fighters first.

Anakin.S

Martin Walker wrote: »

I respectfully disagree with Anakins statement that MMA in Ireland will not grow without a Governing Body. To be honest i take offence to it. MMA in this country has developed rapidly since it first came to our shores when people like John Kavanagh, David Patterson, Tom Lamont, Paddy Mooney ect ect embraced it. They shaped the sport into what it is today without a Governing body. Why suddenly do we need one now? MMA in Ireland is in a very good place.

I meant no disrespect, when I reread my post I can see how the comment may offend/annoy

Irish MMA can and will continue to grow when people who love the sport continue to invest their time and money into it. I was thinking more in the future when (hopefully) Irish MMA competes realistically with boxing, football, GAA. IMO if Irish MMA get to this size, which I hope it does then a governing body would be essential.

But its easy for me, all I do is buy a ticket. Your the people that put your time and effort into a sport I enjoy and I comment on things you should be doing differently.

With reference to fightie's comments

MMA being like pro wrestling? I would hate to see fighters contracted to specific promotions, this just means that if two top fighters were signed to rival promotions they would never fight.

John Ferguson

Anakin.S wrote: »

I would hate to see fighters contracted to specific promotions, this just means that if two top fighters were signed to rival promotions they would never fight.

I agree this would not be good for the sport.

The point i was making is that promotions more or less stand alone, not that fighters should be contracted to only one promotion. Most promotions/shows in Ireland use more or less the same rules set, possibly because we generally use the same officials.