Cheap ftw?

FutureGuy

In the last few days, I have been working on my ground game with Ryu. I'm working on strategies I have seen the top Ryu players use in varous match-ups.

-Proper zoning with hadokens from the correct distance
-Working on throws, especially against players who cannot tech-throw
-Punishing weaknesses incessantly
-Not jumping as much to initiate combos (using C.mk etc)


Since I have started, the number of abusive messages I have started to receive has gone through the roof. "Typical cheap Ryu" "Fcuking cheap player" "Stop throwing me and play the fcuking game".

In tandem with this, my %win has substantially increased.

Just wondering...do "cheap" tactics come hand in hand with becoming a better player?

A-Trak

The game allows me to counter all the techniques you use if I was to play you.

And if I can't, then I'm a worse player then you.

Nothing cheap about that.

Doyler01

Theres no such thing as "cheap" in street fighter.

If you can win a whole game by only throwing then that says more about the other guy than you.

When you get scrubby hate mail like that just reply with this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ&feature=related

Doctor DooM

The cry of cheap is the clarion call of the scrub.

You are not playing in their predefined set of rules as to what is fair or not.

Even if you decided you want to remain "non cheap" instead of getting better, how will you tell what they have decided is cheap or not?

What you describe above is simply good play.

If they wished to become better players, they would try to adapt by zoning you out of range so you couldn't use your cr mk, or using footsies to ward you off, for example.

Don't stop expanding your skills because others refuse to do the same.

FutureGuy

I was told by another Irish player that "I should be ashamed to be Irish"

Insult fail. :rolleyes:

Dunjohn

FutureGuy wrote: »

Just wondering...do "cheap" tactics come hand in hand with becoming a better player?

Yes, it does, in the sense that beating scrubs using tactics they can't adapt to goes hand in hand with becoming a better player. Their opinions are irrelevant. It's the opinions of the handful of good players you'll face, for whom "cheap" is not part of their vocabularies, that matter.

unky chop chop

I Agree, If you find something that wins you the match i say use it.
Good player will always adapt their play on the fly to combat tactics if you start abusing, and if they don't it's their own fault. I often get that "cheap throw" abuse crap and it makes me crack up.These fools just can't tech to safe their life

A-Trak

unky chop chop wrote: »

I often get that "cheap throw" abuse crap and it makes me crack up.These fools just can't tech to safe their life

It was playing you and your incessint tic-throwing that forced me to learn how to tech properly, you cheap bástard.


I used to mash tech and hope I got lucky prior to learning it properly.

Orim

I go out of my to be cheap and to use only one move to beat.

Often after i realise I'm better I will use only throws, df HK or even jab to beat them. It works more often then it should.

K.O.Kiki

I played Tinja on his final day, and that's how he killed me -- cr LK (hit or block), throw.

The worst thing is I'm expecting a shoryu, and he would throw me EVEN THOUGH the Shoryu was free.
Then when I try to tech -- counterhit Shoryu.

Ramza

Like I said in another thread cheap is subjective and it's just a word made up by people who can't take a loss/beating. There is no cheap. If you cannot counter someone's tactics etc then time to man up and get better or stfu. The people sending the messages saying "cheap bastard" etc are just sore losers or cop-outs, don't listen to them, it's total nonsense

Haters gonna hate, for example ; any 3s video you watch it's just "oh Chun-Li/Yun/Ken are so cheap, omg" but the people who write those comments haven't the foggiest notion on how to even play the game or use those characters properly, so it doesn't matter

Those people aren't real

Owwmykneecap

Whiffing normals to build meter is cheap.

Discuss.

Ramza

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

Whiffing normals to build meter is cheap.

Discuss.

Totally

Kirby

Well the "cheap" argument is a fairly weak one. It can all be countered like A-trak said.

The building meter thing actually has a little more merit as some of the cast can do it safely and others cannot. Its one thing to get in an extra move while your opponent is on the ground. Everyone can do that. But a couple of lads can just build safely from accross the screen. So at least people moaning at that makes sense. If they get too happy with the meter building you can punish if they get predictable.

It's still silly though. People just like to have a moan when they lose. Human nature and all that. Ignore them mate and keep owning them all.

Sisko

I was playing ranked today and I was called a spammer. Which amused me.

Was playing this 7000 point Ryu from the UK. Terrible player, he just kept jumping at me, jumping HK and heavy SRK. I didnt realise this was all he was going to do till half way through the 1st round. So after I finished him off , and the second around began:

I just kept ibuki at the right spaceing and back + medium punched the guy. He just kept jumping , he never stoped and tried anything else. Kept doing it. When he was near low health he finally paused for a moment and I expected him to actually throw a fireball or something.

But no.

Ragequit...

Then a barrage of the typical messages , one of which called me a spammer.

Whats amusing is I was just responding to the to his attack with the correct answer. He was the one spamming the same attack, I was only responding. These people are just fucking idiots basiclly. Who are angry with themselves for losing but try and point that towards the guy who beat them , claiming lame tactics or whatever even when it makes no logical sense.

In the early months of this game your gonna be dealing with 13 year olds too mind you.


______________________________________________


As for the meter question:

You can't build meter with normals in SF4, which was one thing I didn't like about 3s.

I wouldn't use the word cheap , it just looked shitty , seemed un-cool compared everything else about the game.

I never did it myself, but I never really looked down on players that did it either I'd just think its a pity its like that in 3s.

In 4 where characters build meter by using specials, I don't see it as being cheap, its better system then 3. Its annoying alright to see Bison on the other side of the screen building meter, forcing you to attack.

But theres been times I really needed that ex neck breaker, and I'd throw a few more kunais than normal to get it and win.

I'm just happy its not like 3s.

Kirby

Sisko wrote: »

As for the meter question:

You can't build meter with normals in SF4, which was one thing I didn't like about 3s.

I wouldn't use the word cheap , it just looked shitty , seemed un-cool compared everything else about the game.

I never did it myself, but I never really looked down on players that did it either I'd just think its a pity its like that in 3s.

In 4 where characters build meter by using specials, I don't see it as being cheap, its better system then 3. Its annoying alright to see Bison on the other side of the screen building meter, forcing you to attack.

But theres been times I really needed that ex neck breaker, and I'd throw a few more kunais than normal to get it and win.

I'm just happy its not like 3s.

Well it would be easy to fix. Have the meter be gained on hit or blocked. That way if you wiff you don't get it.

You can punish bison though if he gets careless and gets predictable. Fireball at the right time and then you can close the distance with the knockdown and get in his grill.

Azza

Bison building meter from distance is not much of an issue because the shoto's can throw fireballs and build meter at a faster rate than he can.

Bison gains alot more meter when he gets his offense going.

Sisko

haha no need to defend Bison, as I said I don't think its cheap. Only time building meters comes to mind is facing off against bison's who tend to do a meter building like that as part of their mind games.


I think capcom wanted to leave it in for such mind games. Meter building breaking a stale mate and forcing a character to attack.

FutureGuy

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

Whiffing normals to build meter is cheap.

Discuss.

Hmm...If a guy is completely backing off me and spamming projectiles, I try to alternate between focusing and jumping over them while performing a tatsu on the way down. Thanks for helping to fill both my bars.

Even when not being spammed, I'll try and close distance with a tatsu when it's safe.

Unless it's a srubby ken. Ill just lp shoryuken from across the screen until I have 2-3 bars. Add a taunt or two for good measure.

EDIT: Comprehension fail.

NeoKubrick

Ramza wrote: »

There is no cheap.

No, there exists cheap tactics, which are defined by their deterioration of competitive play. It doesn't logically follow that that corrupted and self-serving interpretation of cheap tactics by scrubs voids its existence.

A-Trak

NeoKubrick wrote: »

It doesn't logically follow that that corrupted and self-serving interpretation of cheap tactics by scrubs voids its existence.

Ergo vis a vis concordantly, I say logically it does

Seriously, what are cheap tatics in your opinion so?

chopperbyrne

A-Trak wrote: »

Ergo vis a vis concordantly, I say logically it does

Seriously, what are cheap tatics in your opinion so?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra5-H9ZBS1U

NeoKubrick

A-Trak wrote: »

Ergo vis a vis concordantly, I say logically it does

Seriously, what are cheap tatics in your opinion so?

It's not my opinion: it's a claim based on numerous case examples. If you're referring to competitive play in S\SFIV, then, I don't know any cheap tactics. It's a relatively young competitive game(s), and if cheap tactics exist in the game, they will probably and eventually be found and it will deteriorate competitive play.

If you're referring in general to competitive games (virtual or otherwise) as I was, then one such case would be FIFA's changing of the back-pass rule to only allow a goalkeeper to handle the ball from a headed pass-back in Football. According to your logic and Ramza's, a team who would pass it back and forth between the defenders and goalkeeper for the duration of the game wouldn't be using cheap tactics, because, to both of you, no cheap tactics exist.

It was a cheap tactic, and it deteriorated competitive play, and ergo/therefore/thus/hence/henceforth, it was nerfed by the new ruling to make it harder for teams to use said/aforementioned/cited tactic. Pick and choose which words you consider not "cheap".

Do you consider Akuma in Street Fighter II Turbo to not deteriorate competitive play?

Sisko

Cheap and broken are two very different things.

K.O.Kiki

@NeoKubrick:
Cheap: a tactic which is hard BUT NOT impossible for the opponent to counter. Called "cheap" because it goes "against how the game is SUPPOSED to be played".
Is generally always due to somebody learning how to exploit the rules of a game in a way not seen before.

Broken: a tactic which cannot be countered with any tactic other than itself.
Usually takes a while to be established as truly broken.

Hence why your football analogy is cheap but within the rules, while ST Akuma's air fireball is broken (since it stuffs pretty much everything).

chopperbyrne

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

@NeoKubrick:
Cheap: a tactic which is hard BUT NOT impossible for the opponent to counter. Called "cheap" because it goes "against how the game is SUPPOSED to be played".
Is generally always due to somebody learning how to exploit the rules of a game in a way not seen before.

Broken: a tactic which cannot be countered with any tactic other than itself.
Usually takes a while to be established as truly broken.

Hence why your football analogy is cheap but within the rules, while ST Akuma's air fireball is broken (since it stuffs pretty much everything).

What the hell are you talking about? Apart from fully deplete your opponents lifebar or have more life remaining at the timeout, there are no ways the game is supposed to be played.

Azza

Cheap in football = When your winning, running over to the corner flag of the opposing team and holding the ball up. Kicking the ball of your opponent to win a throw/corner and then take it slowly. Time wasting taking goal/free kicks. Bringing on needless subsitutions.

ST Akuma in football = Bringing a Smith & Wesson Model 29 .44-cal. Magnum revolver on to the field and shooting any opposing player who attempts to win the ball. As a secondary measure you have all the opposing players families held at gun point with the gunmen having standing orders to execute them if the opposing players come with 30 feet of the player with the ball, Your 2 stikers names are Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer, they are in angry mood and think the opposing goalkeeper has run over their dogs.

NeoKubrick

Sisko wrote: »

Cheap and broken are two very different things.

Well, you're implying your confusion of the two terms. I'm not insulting Kiki, but as an example, he needed to edit his first attempt to define and separate these two and still, the two definitions overlapped and don't make much sense (I love you, Kiki, really); there's a distinction but slight. If it's within the rules of the game, it can't be defined as broken. To define some tactic/method as broken, you need to have or invent a rule to define it as such and for it to break something. As is the case in both examples I referred to: US tournaments banned Akuma and FIFA changed the rule.

What is 'cheap' is what deteriorates competitive play and what should be considered and defined as broken by the rules of the game. What is broken is what is defined by the rules as breaking the game.

How could anyone be said to be breaking competitive play by using tactics allowed within the rules? You only could be said to be breaking an imaginary ruleset. Is that not the "clarion call" of the scrub eh?

Azza wrote: »

ST Akuma in football = Bringing a Smith & Wesson Model 29 .44-cal. Magnum revolver on to the field and shooting any opposing player who attempts to win the ball. As a secondary measure you have all the opposing players families held at gun point with the gunmen having standing orders to execute them if the opposing players come with 30 feet of the player with the ball Your 2 stikers names are Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer, they are in angry mood and think the opposing goalkeeper has run over there dog.

Which reminds me, I should have bought that Chuck Norris book. I still laugh over: "Chuck Norris once played Jenga; he built the Empire State building".

Sisko

ST Akuma is a secret bonus character designed to be more powerful then the rest of the cast , he was never meant to compete equally.


He's not even on the character select screen.

There is no cheap in street fighter. Just people crying cause they can't beat a particular tactic. All tactics have a way to be beaten. If it doesn't, its not cheap, its broken and there for banned or patched.

I'm not the one confused here.

Dreddybajs

Doctor DooM wrote: »

or big damage and risky (tatsu which could be punished if blocked.)

don't do this one

Doctor DooM

I've moved the posts about Future guy's style into the match up thread as it's veering way off topic for this one.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055787049