What's happening with the orange 201s?

dowlingm

So rather than use a non-pushpull 201 to haul them, IE is using an NIR 111 (112) to haul Tara Mines and an intercity 201 (220) to haul an IWT train. Why can't IE just use the stored 201s, since they have to run them idle every so often to charge their batteries anyway?

I know there was talk of flogging them, any movement on this?

Hungerford

dowlingm wrote: »

So rather than use a non-pushpull 201 to haul them, IE is using an NIR 111 (112) to haul Tara Mines and an intercity 201 (220) to haul an IWT train. Why can't IE just use the stored 201s, since they have to run them idle every so often to charge their batteries anyway?

I think the answer to the first one is that 201s can't go down the Alexandra Road tramway. I presume for the IWT runs, the 201 swaps with an 071 somewhere to go down to the port. In terms of the other 201s, Tricky Dicky has had them stored in the scrap line in Inchicore. They aren't leaving except as razor blades although they will probably be canabalised first seeing as IE recently sold off its stock of GM spares. :eek:

JHMEG

Are the 201's on the way out already. Jeez, anyone remember the Antonov. Must be the shortest lived locos ever...

Captain Chaos

JHMEG wrote: »

Are the 201's on the way out already. Jeez, anyone remember the Antonov. Must be the shortest lived locos ever...

Yeah, 201-205 and 210-215 are more or less finished. 216 and 217 were stored aswell but have since returned to service.

About 112 on the taras, how are IE short of freight locos with 18 071's. 171 had to come back as a pilot loco for Connolly as an 071 was doing that.

Run_to_da_hills

JHMEG wrote: »

Are the 201's on the way out already. Jeez, anyone remember the Antonov. Must be the shortest lived locos ever...

Very bad considering the A's which they replaced survived well in excess of 30 years and worked harder.

dowlingm

Good point on the tramway - I didn't think of there. Given the order for CAF 4000s and the likely fate of the Gatwicks now they have given up on making the DBSO work, it's dubious how long NIR will need five locos (2 x 201 and 3 x 111) so it makes sense that they might want IE to rent one or more of them.

I guess I'm just confused as to how they are so knackered of the 201 fleet generally. Since they weren't PP locos it's not like they were getting ruined by HEP on the Enterprise, right?

VIA Rail Canada are busy rebuilding their 25 year old F40s and AMT Montreal are leasing second hand F59s, also a quarter century old. In AMT's case they are replacing GP9s (late 1950s). But that would involve having facilities to do rebuilds like CAD Lachine. How much skilled work is being lost to Ireland because of the lack of a major overhaul centre?

lord lucan

Speaking of 201,this vid was linked to on IRN today,a reminder of different times on this island.

Judgement Day

lord lucan wrote: »

Speaking of 201,this vid was linked to on IRN today,a reminder of different times on this island.

Excellent clip but the 'chucky heads' haven't gone away you know. Wasn't there yet another bomb scare at Lurgan only today which closed the line. I seem to remember bits of 201 lying about in the Dundalk North Western yard back in the 1980s - probably still there knowing CIE/IE's record for good housekeeping.

corktina

I recall seeing a documentary recently about a firm in the US rebuilding and scrapping GM locos, the parts were fetching a FORTUNE

Run_to_da_hills

corktina wrote: »

I recall seeing a documentary recently about a firm in the US rebuilding and scrapping GM locos, the parts were fetching a FORTUNE

Sounds like Larrys Truck & Electrical in Ohio. I believe they scrapped a heap of EX Chicago Metra E9's recently.

From this to this. :mad:

lord lucan

Judgement Day wrote: »

Excellent clip but the 'chucky heads' haven't gone away you know. Wasn't there yet another bomb scare at Lurgan only today which closed the line. I seem to remember bits of 201 lying about in the Dundalk North Western yard back in the 1980s - probably still there knowing CIE/IE's record for good housekeeping.

There was a scare almost 2 weeks ago too. The night before the RPSI's positioning run from Whitehead to Dublin there was an alert that closed the line. Fortunately by the time i got the first Enterprise north in the morning it'd been cleared.

lord lucan

lord lucan wrote: »

Speaking of 201,this vid was linked to on IRN today,a reminder of different times on this island.

Here's a photo of the remains in Inchicore shortly afterwards. You can also see a mangled 125 in the background.

Back on topic, I think it's insane that ANY 201s are out of service.

Run_to_da_hills

Karsini wrote: »

[You can also see a mangled 125 in the background.

I guess that would have been around the time of the Gormanston push pull incident.

Karsini wrote: »

Back on topic, I think it's insane that ANY 201s are out of service. .

Its nothing more than scandalous when some family cars about can outlive many of these locomotives. These should be designed to last for the best part of a generation like their predecessors.

corktina

The trouble is they bought the wrong locos.... whats needed to replace the rest of them is lightweight power cars with half the power, one each end of the Mk4s

Hungerford

dowlingm wrote: »

I guess I'm just confused as to how they are so knackered of the 201 fleet generally. Since they weren't PP locos it's not like they were getting ruined by HEP on the Enterprise, right?

The problems are pretty self-evident:
* Their axle-loading means they can't travel over all parts of the network
* They are less reliable than the 071 fleet
* The new railcars have removed their main use

The 071s can go anywhere, are more reliable, have sufficient horsepower to do what is required and are just as fast as the 201s. I suspect that if IE could turn back time, it would have bought an upgraded version of the 071-class in 1994 instead of the 201-class.

In general, IE's fleet strategy is a mess: they clearly still require the 141-class given the sudden resurrection of 171. They have far too many heavy powerful locomotives and insufficent lighter ones.

Judgement Day

Sadly it isn't just CIE/IEs fleet strategy that's a mess!:rolleyes:

I have a suggestion for the 201s but how plausible I don't know. Their major problem is weight. Once the Mk3 vans are in service there will be no need for the HEP alternators in the 201s. Removing these should reduce their weight quite significantly. The loco would need to be rebalanced but this wouldn't be impossible.

Captain Chaos

Karsini wrote: »

I have a suggestion for the 201s but how plausible I don't know. Their major problem is weight. Once the Mk3 vans are in service there will be no need for the HEP alternators in the 201s. Removing these should reduce their weight quite significantly. The loco would need to be rebalanced but this wouldn't be impossible.

But 201-205 and 210-214 don't have any HEP equipment and are the ones in storage. Yet they are the ones to go first and to be stripped of parts.

Captain Chaos

Captain Chaos wrote: »

But 201-205 and 210-214 don't have any HEP equipment and are the ones in storage. Yet they are the ones to go first and to be stripped of parts.

They do have it, it was just never used. Except for 210, its HEP gear was used for static trials on Mk3s.

SeanW

All 201s AFAIK have the capability to supply HEP.

Generally there are 3 ways to power coach heating and light etc.

1. Generator Van
2. HEP, a separate engine in the locomotive.
3. HEP, running from the main engine of the locomotive.

Needless to say, it's option 3 that IE took (against GMs advice) and that's what's caused all the trouble on the Enterprise. That having been said, sometimes the problems of main engine HEP can be ameliorated by using geared HEP equipment that can turn the generator at different engine outputs, the current IE/NIR setup means the engine must be running at full whack all the time. :mad:

SeanW

SeanW wrote: »

All 201s AFAIK have the capability to supply HEP.

Generally there are 3 ways to power coach heating and light etc.

1. Generator Van
2. HEP, a separate engine in the locomotive.
3. HEP, running from the main engine of the locomotive.

Needless to say, it's option 3 that IE took (against GMs advice) and that's what's caused all the trouble on the Enterprise. That having been said, sometimes the problems of main engine HEP can be ameliorated by using geared HEP equipment that can turn the generator at different engine outputs, the current IE/NIR setup means the engine must be running at full whack all the time. :mad:

That's correct. All 201s have HEP equipment onboard but 201-205 and 211-214 have never used it and 234s is badly damaged after flooding in Waterford. If you look at the "cow catcher" on the orange 201s you can see the HEP sockets but they're based on the original design - the push-pull units were modified slightly after delivery. This equipment will be obsolete once the Mk3 vans come in on the Enterprise so I think it should be removed to reduce their weight.

dowlingm

I suspect it might be left on since that would mean it could be used as standby in case of the genvan going sick.

dowlingm

dowlingm wrote: »

I suspect it might be left on since that would mean it could be used as standby in case of the genvan going sick.

Yeah that's true. There is a provision in the Mk4 operations manual (which I have a copy of) which states that HEP can be used on a Mk4 in an emergency but it will only provide half the power output, effectively the equivalent of one generator.

Run_to_da_hills

Do the MK4 DVT's have HEP equipment in them?

They have two generators in the same setup as a Mk2/Mk3 gen van.

SeanW

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Do the MK4 DVT's have HEP equipment in them?

Yes, though I don't think its HEP when you have a separate generator in the coach set. The clue is in the name "Driving (generator) Van Trailer."

Incidentally IIRC I heard that the 201s have a lever that controls the type of HEP supplied - that they have a choice between supplying power for DeDietrichs, Mk3s and Mk2s (the latter two no longer required ) is that true? and if so, which output type would be used to supply emergency HEP to the CDEs?

Red Alert

That sounds strange, I thought all Irish trains took 3 Phase, 400V phase-to-phase at 50 Hz. How come there are two generators in a Gen Van - are they both used or is it a duty/standby setup?

kc56

With 2 generators power is supplied to two independent busses running throughout the train. In each carraige equipment is connected to one or other of the busses. In that way, if one generator fails, some power is retained in each carraige. I believe that high loads like A/C can be disconnected if they are on one generator only.

SeanW

that would explain it