Quinn Direct/Insurance - Legal advice

wobblyknees

So, here's the situation. We have an insurance policy with these bastions of customer service. My partner is the main policy holder and I am a named driver. During the course of the agreeement three dd's were missed. Our mistake. Fair enough. I rang them, and during the course of a lengthy conversation with an 'agent' I made a verbal/alternative arrangement and agreed that we would pay the outstanding balance, but would need a few weeks to pay. The person checked and then agreed that we could make a payment of €110 by the 18th of this month and then two weeks/14 days later, by the end of the month (31st), we would pay the outstanding balance of €110.

Now, two days later, on the 12th, my partner receives a call from another agent demanding a full payment by the 14th. I rang them back and explained in no uncertain terms that a mistake was made and they needed to go and check this. They did, left me a message to call them back (yesterday), and I only got round to calling them today.

I have just been told now that they want the full payment by the 25th. I explained that this was not the case as I had made a verbal agreement to the contrary. To cut a long story short, the language being used by the person I was speaking to was as follows:

• We will not change our stance on this.

• If you do not agree we will withdraw this new arrangement and ask you to pay in full by the 18th. (I construed this as a threat)

I made my 'stance' very clear and explained that he was making a big mistake as the original contract we had was replaced by the verbal agreement/contract made last week. As far as I was concerned, nothing had changed and I felt they were not in a postition to change this as they saw fit. The person I was talking to went as far as admitting that the agent I spoke to had made an 'agent error'. This, as i explained, was not my fault, and was a mistake he/quinn would have to fix.

The guy I spoke to, kept using the language I mentioned before but was obviously desperate to end the call as I refused to accept the fact that they had made a mistake. He went so far as suggesting that the call had lasted too long, at which point I had to remind him that I had called him on my mobile.

I should also clarify that there are no arrears outstanding, bar the fact that the dd's were missed over the course of the year, all payments have been made.

Tbh, I'm still fuming but I'd like to know where I stand. I suggested to him I'd be requesting a copy of the phone conversation I had in which the alternative arrangement was made, at which point he said, in a very patronising way, that I could, but as they were a private company, he'd check how much it would cost me!

Does anyone have any advice? I'm sure I am right in that a new (verbal) contract was made and they are in the wrong, the problem I have is he is suggesting that they will cancel the policy if the full payment is not made by the 25th.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

wobblyknees

Bump.

Anyone?

MagicMarker

If you want insurance then you gotta pay for it. What if you have a crash tomorrow? They may have a case of not paying out because you missed payments on the policy. It's in your own best interest to pay sooner rather than later.

noodler

Not sure of the ins and outs of much legal worth is in verbal contracts but I guess the endgame would be court and you requesting the tape as evidence etc etc or else it would be your word against theirs and if there was no evidence then the written contract is what would matter I guess.

All that seems like alot of hassle for the money involved - I would have said maybe try a few more phone calls if you have the patience and then leave it at that. I don't think any further action would really benefit you.

krpc

noodler wrote: »

Not sure of the ins and outs of much legal worth is in verbal contracts but I guess the endgame would be court and you requesting the tape as evidence etc etc or else it would be your word against theirs and if there was no evidence then the written contract is what would matter I guess.

All that seems like alot of hassle for the money involved - I would have said maybe try a few more phone calls if you have the patience and then leave it at that. I don't think any further action would really benefit you.

I would advise to speak to a superviser or Manager and the discuss the matter. It would be a good idea to have as much information at hand (which you clearly do), such as the names of the agents you spoke with previously, the date you called and made the amended arrangement for payment. There should be a record on your account of any agreements that were made previously with an agent.

I am pretty sure most, if not all, large companies "record calls for quality and training purposes", but not sure if these recordings are accessible through a Freedom of Information request from the Data Protection Comissioner.

Alternatively, you could write a registered leter to their Head of Customer Services documenting the issue - this will likely result in them responding in the same format and you will at least have something in writing should the matter escalate.

wobblyknees

MagicMarker wrote: »

If you want insurance then you gotta pay for it. What if you have a crash tomorrow? They may have a case of not paying out because you missed payments on the policy. It's in your own best interest to pay sooner rather than later.

:rolleyes: There are no missed payments. 3 dd's were returned during the course of a year, and paid once the error was seen. As it stands, they are paid and fully up to date and as such, the insurance policy is perfectly fine.

noodler

wobblyknees wrote: »

:rolleyes: There are no missed payments. 3 dd's were returned during the course of a year, and paid once the error was seen. As it stands, they are paid and fully up to date and as such, the insurance policy is perfectly fine.

No idea why you are rolling your eyes.

That you missed three payments was exactly what I gathered was the issue as well?

Sorry I don't understand, but could you explain to me how "missing three DDs" is not the same as three missed payments?

MagicMarker

wobblyknees wrote: »

:rolleyes: There are no missed payments. 3 dd's were returned during the course of a year, and paid once the error was seen. As it stands, they are paid and fully up to date and as such, the insurance policy is perfectly fine.

So why do you owe them money?

wobblyknees

rc_irl wrote: »

I would advise to speak to a superviser or Manager and the discuss the matter. It would be a good idea to have as much information at hand, such as the names of the agents you spoke with previously, the date you called and made the amended arrangement for payment. There should be a record on your account of any agreements that were made previously with an agent.

I am pretty sure most, if not all, large companies "record calls for quality and training purposes", but not sure if these recordings are accessible through a Freedom of Information request from the Data Protection Comissioner.

Alternatively, you could write a registered leter to their Head of Customer Services documenting the issue - this will likely result in them responding in the same format and you will at least have something in writing should the matter escalate.

Apparantly, 'there are no supervisors to talk to' and 'this is company policy' and 'we will not change our stance on this'.

I am not surprised in the slightest they are in difficulty at the minute, regardless of which positive story they try and spin when they talk to you.

wobblyknees

noodler wrote: »

No idea why you are rolling your eyes.

That you missed three payments was exactly what I gathered was the issue as well?

Sorry I don't understand, but could you explain to me how "missing three DDs" is not the same as three missed payments?

Missed payments = payments still to be made. The missing dd's was an oversight. For example, on Monday, Quinn applied automatically for €110, there was only €100 in the account so it was 'returned'. I noticed this the following day, rang them and paid by laser as there were now extra funds in the account.

And I was rolling my eyes as I felt the following statement was either unhelpful, untrue or irrelevant:

If you want insurance then you gotta pay for it. What if you have a crash tomorrow? They may have a case of not paying out because you missed payments on the policy. It's in your own best interest to pay sooner rather than later.

Mr. Incognito

You two sound like you deserve each other.

I cancelled a policy with Quinn halfway through last year and threw all their demands for "Administration fees" to close the policy in the bin. They are a waste of space, no company is going to rack up thousands in solicitor fees to chase these charges that have no consideration and are unenforceable.

Tell them to stick their policy where the sun don't shine and move to another company.

wobblyknees

MagicMarker wrote: »

So why do you owe them money?

Technically, everyone owes their insurer money. They insure you and you pay them back over 12 months.

The issue is this, according to the letter of the contract, 3 returned dd's equals pay us now, in full or we will cancel your policy. Basically, they force you to pay early.

I had no real problem with this, and agreed to pay early, as according to the letter of the contract, I had made a mistake. I then made alternative arrangements with them to pay the full amount. This then became a new agreement/contract.

My gripe is that they are trying to ignore the fact I have made an alternative arrangement.

krpc

wobblyknees wrote: »

Apparantly, 'there are no supervisors to talk to' and 'this is company policy' and 'we will not change our stance on this'.

I am not surprised in the slightest they are in difficulty at the minute, regardless of which positive story they try and spin when they talk to you.

This is a situation in most call centre environments, so it's not unique to Quinn Direct and the current economic climate. You could arrange a call back?

As noted, writing a (registered) letter or an e-mail addressed to the Head of Customer Services might be in order.

MagicMarker

wobblyknees wrote: »

The issue is this, according to the letter of the contract, 3 returned dd's equals pay us now, in full or we will cancel your policy. Basically, they force you to pay early.

I see, that probably could have been explained better in the OP.

wobblyknees

rc_irl wrote: »

This is a situation in most call centre environments, so it's not unique to Quinn Direct and the current economic climate. You could arrange a call back?

As noted, writing a (registered) letter or an e-mail addressed to the Head of Customer Services might be in order.

Thanks, this is actually a very sensible suggestion. I'd normally be this way inclined, I was just very annoyed earlier.

wobblyknees

MagicMarker wrote: »

I see, that probably could have been explained better in the OP.

Apologies, I was fuming when I was typing so may not have made that point clear.

thebiglad

rc_irl wrote: »

This is a situation in most call centre environments, so it's not unique to Quinn Direct and the current economic climate. You could arrange a call back?

As noted, writing a (registered) letter or an e-mail addressed to the Head of Customer Services might be in order.

I am presuming that Quinn has withdrawn DD facilities after 3 'missed' payments and now wants the full premium by other means.

And whilst this letter is either on its way to Quinn or under review by them the OP faces the risk that they will not them in the event of an accident - it is a risky strategy.

No legal advise given on situation of the verbal contract - as I see it the contract was offered (subject to proof of course) but has been rescinded by the latter telephone discussion?

If you do not have no claim discount with Quinn just pay the policy premium for cover to date and walk away to another insurer (with DD facilities) and keep the DD up to date this time.

If you really want to pursue this speak with the Financial Ombudsman (the contact details will be in your policy booklet) - again it is going to take time and you risk being uninsured (be bery careful!!) but they are well positioned to advice you.

Savman

Don't waste your time OP. In your Policy T&C's somewhere it will say something about them removing you from the DD scheme if you miss three payments. There is no room for negotiation, so you can write to who you like, I doubt they'll make an exception just for you.

If you don't pay up, they'll cancel the policy and you'll either have to look elsewhere or go back to them to start a whole new policy again, losing any period of months NCB you've gathered since your renewal.

Might seem harsh, but I can see the logic to the Three Strike Rule for the Direct Debits. I'd be surprised if you got anywhere ranting and raving and letting off steam.

My advice, pay the balance and forget about it.

wobblyknees

Savman wrote: »

Don't waste your time OP. In your Policy T&C's somewhere it will say something about them removing you from the DD scheme if you miss three payments. There is no room for negotiation, so you can write to who you like, I doubt they'll make an exception just for you.

If you don't pay up, they'll cancel the policy and you'll either have to look elsewhere or go back to them to start a whole new policy again, losing any period of months NCB you've gathered since your renewal.

Might seem harsh, but I can see the logic to the Three Strike Rule for the Direct Debits. I'd be surprised if you got anywhere ranting and raving and letting off steam.

My advice, pay the balance and forget about it.

But the issue I have isn't anything to do with the DD scheme. If you read back carefully you should be able to see this. THEY offered ME a new arrangement. I accepted and agreed to pay the outstanding amounts in full by a particular date. They've since gone back on this.

dudara

Moved to Banking & Insurance & Pensions

dudara

oldyouth

wobblyknees wrote: »

Technically, everyone owes their insurer money. They insure you and you pay them back over 12 months.

Absolute rubbish. Your renewal is invited and if you accept it you owe the full balance there and then. If (and I doubt you'll be offered it again for breaking the arrangement) you enter in to a financial agreement to borrow this money and repay it over a deferred period of time, that is a separate contract.

Don't throw in the word 'technically' if you don't understand the way these things work

wobblyknees

oldyouth wrote: »

Absolute rubbish. Your renewal is invited and if you accept it you owe the full balance there and then. If (and I doubt you'll be offered it again for breaking the arrangement) you enter in to a financial agreement to borrow this money and repay it over a deferred period of time, that is a separate contract.

Don't throw in the word 'technically' if you don't understand the way these things work

Thanks for your help. Much appreciated.

oldyouth

wobblyknees wrote: »

Thanks for your help. Much appreciated.

Apologies wobbly. Information was correct but I didn't need to be so aggressive about it. Drink and impending redundancy are not a great mix

amdublin

I appreciate that you made alternative arrangements. They've advised this was a mistake and you need to pay as previously arranged. So I think that is pretty clear cut. Not great from your perspective but that's it.

I am still confused how you missed three DD payments but think you are up to date on payments. Am I missing something here?

Edit: okay I see. Three missed DD's means now you have to pay them in full. Standard terms & conditions, you broke the terms/contract this seems fair enough. As to your alternative agreement: they have confirmed they cannot allow this to proceed/mistake was made. I reckon just pay them and be done with them OP. Take your business elsewhere next year.

wobblyknees

oldyouth wrote: »

Apologies wobbly. Information was correct but I didn't need to be so aggressive about it. Drink and impending redundancy are not a great mix

Let's just say I read between the lines! No harm done.

wobblyknees

amdublin wrote: »

I appreciate that you made alternative arrangements. They've advised this was a mistake and you need to pay as previously arranged. So I think that is pretty clear cut. Not great from your perspective but that's it.

I am still confused how you missed three DD payments but think you are up to date on payments. Am I missing something here?

Edit: okay I see. Three missed DD's means now you have to pay them in full. Standard terms & conditions, you broke the terms/contract this seems fair enough. As to your alternative agreement: they have confirmed they cannot allow this to proceed/mistake was made. I reckon just pay them and be done with them OP. Take your business elsewhere next year.

I am going to do this now. Knowing a bit about contract law, I am absolutely certain though that if I pursued this, I would have a very strong case. But, to hell with it. I've too much going on at the minute to be starting another battle.

Thanks for your help.

matt70iu

TBH the fact that there were 3 missed direct debits does not go in your favour. The other thing is when you take out a policy with any insurance company, you are given a policy booklet along with the direct debit dates for the duration of the policy. If you fail to keep to these dates, they are well within their rights to request payment in full, as you have not kept your side of the agreement on more than one occasion.

wobblyknees

matt70iu wrote: »

TBH the fact that there were 3 missed direct debits does not go in your favour. The other thing is when you take out a policy with any insurance company, you are given a policy booklet along with the direct debit dates for the duration of the policy. If you fail to keep to these dates, they are well within their rights to request payment in full, as you have not kept your side of the agreement on more than one occasion.

Just to give you a summary. I agreed with missed DD's over 12 months, They offered an alternative arrangement. I accepted this. They then backtracked.

amdublin

wobblyknees wrote: »

They offered an alternative arrangement. I accepted this. They then backtracked.

And they advised this was a mistake. Life is not fair sometimes.

ArrBee

I would consider the insurance company to be in the wrong regarding the going back on a previous agreement.

If an agent acting on behalf of the company has given you information you have a reasonable expectation that the information is true and the company will stand behind that.
If they later claim that the individual was in error, then that is an admission of your original agreement with the company.

Not sure about Ireland, but in other countries consumers are protected by various laws that cover these situations.
verbal contracts is one (but looks like they admit they had an agreement with you - otherwise how could the 1st agent have made an error?)
another law in NZ is one concerning experts information which means that if presented with all pertinant information a vendor (being the expert) must give correct and accurate information and that you can expect that information given to you is such.

Either the 1st agent you spoke to was not authorised to discuss making payments or they should honour the original agreement.

But...
I would agree, it's not worth it!
Explain to them in writing why you have left if you can be bothered.