Shafted in the biz.

dav nagle

Has anyone here been shafted in the music business? I have been shafted twice, once last year and once this year? What way did you handle it? Owed money? Empty promises? or just blatantly shafted?? Your not in business until some dike shafts you so without name dropping can you explain how you dealt with it? Did you burn bridges? Did you take it too personally? How do/did you protect yourself?


From now on everything I do is going to be on paper, end of.

Savman

dav nagle wrote: »

From now on everything I do is going to be on paper, end of.

Careful, people think signed contracts are a protection when in reality a half baked contract leaves you open to all sorts of exposure. If you can't get it done professionally (ie a solicitor) then I really wouldn't recommend it unless you speak the legal dialect (from what I've seen, ancient hebrew would be easier to learn).

Anyway, getting shafted, of course, par for the course amigo!

MilanPan!c

dav nagle wrote: »

Has anyone here been shafted in the music business? I have been shafted twice, once last year and once this year? What way did you handle it? Owed money? Empty promises? or just blatantly shafted?? Your not in business until some dike shafts you so without name dropping can you explain how you dealt with it? Did you burn bridges? Did you take it too personally? How do/did you protect yourself?


From now on everything I do is going to be on paper, end of.

Without being ridiculous, my motto is simple:

You can't truly control what happens to you, but you can control your reaction to it.

So, when I have been shafted, I try my best to keep it in perspective, learn from my mistakes and redouble my efforts.


That's all I got.


I tried the vindictive route and it was MUCH worse.

Sorry to hear you got screwed man.. What a pain.

And of course, the best protection is being valuable... People tend not to **** over people they need.

PaulBrewer

Happened me once ....

The single rule to observe is no mon / no track.

Mastering/Record Company/Lads flying in from New York/UK Management is of no interest to you ..... getting paid is.

If any of the above is true then they need to pay you for that to happen.

No Buts!

dav nagle

Savman wrote: »

Careful, people think signed contracts are a protection when in reality a half baked contract leaves you open to all sorts of exposure. If you can't get it done professionally (ie a solicitor) then I really wouldn't recommend it unless you speak the legal dialect (from what I've seen, ancient hebrew would be easier to learn).

Anyway, getting shafted, of course, par for the course amigo!

I am not talking about writing up a cheap word 97 document here, I am talking legal contracts with a professional music lawyer. Any contacts Savman for entertainment lawyers?

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Happened me once ....

The single rule to observe is no mon / no track.

Mastering/Record Company/Lads flying in from New York/UK Management is of no interest to you ..... getting paid is.

If any of the above is true then they need to pay you for that to happen.

No Buts!

See this is about loyalty Paul, it's about business, and music is the theme, but I cant say more than that. It's about two types of people, the giver, and the taker.

PMI

The funny thing is when people try and do it here in such a small country, the place it to small for people to forget....

I didnt get paid once from a guitar session for old polygram group not huge amount but at that time I kinda needed it

Doesnt tend to happen now though

PaulBrewer

dav nagle wrote: »

I am not talking about writing up a cheap word 97 document here, I am talking legal contracts with a professional music lawyer. Any contacts Savman for entertainment lawyers?

And who is going to pay them ? And what if the contract is defaulted upon ? Who pays the legal fees to chase the culprit ?

I've given you the only rule you need.

dav nagle

It's times like these I wonder whats the point.

I want to just clear this up, I am not talking about being shafted out of money, I am talking about the loyalty I have offered to an entity in the music business which has been scuffed up in my face. I am talking about being told one thing on a Wednesday and being told the polar opposite via email two days later. This is not about recording its about 'the showbiz' elements.

PaulBrewer

.... ah that's the norm too. Believe it when you see it !

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

.... ah that's the norm too. Believe it when you see it !

Now you get where I'm coming from!:)

When you see a snake just avoid it, don't interact with it, it will only bite you and leave you poisoned.

Savman

dav nagle wrote: »

It's times like these I wonder whats the point.

I want to just clear this up, I am not talking about being shafted out of money, I am talking about the loyalty I have offered to an entity in the music business which has been scuffed up in my face. I am talking about being told one thing on a Wednesday and being told the polar opposite via email two days later. This is not about recording its about 'the showbiz' elements.

There's no honour amongst thieves. I, too, thought you were talking about someone not paying for a session or whatever, but sounds like you're getting at something else.

I'm curious...

dav nagle

Savman wrote: »

There's no honour amongst thieves.

Yes and if you know who you are and your reading this remember what savman said.


Anyone else got any stories?

DamagedTrax

its a small business and what comes around goes around.

i was recording a duo 2 years ago and they were paying up front for maybe 6/7 sessions with no problems so i did 3 days mixing work from a session they had recorded elsewhere. the files were sent to me so i told them to just sort me out on our next booked session. the recordings were dreadful and i told them but got the go ahead on the job anyway. sent the mixes over and only then did they decide they didnt want them and refused to pay.

i wont get into the back & forth but in the end i just had to let it go...

back to our small community, i told a few people the story and ive since heard back that they been refused in 2 differant studios because of their increasingly bad rep. they probably have been working elsewhere but it was a small victory for me :-)

now i demand half up front or a contract (im lucky to have a relative to draw up contracts).

dav nagle

DamagedTrax wrote: »

its a small business and what comes around goes around.

That it is, how people are happy to operate in such a small bitchy world as Ireland is beyond me. Thanks for sharing your story it sounds like you got it sorted. I am getting things sorted, I have the backing.

MilanPan!c

The further down the foodchain, the more risks you're forced to take and the more exposure you have to douchebags...

It's more about time and talent...

If you stick to it, and have talent (which I'm pretty sure aint an issue) then these issues will become less frequent...

they'll never disappear, but they will mean less and happen less often...

I really am alway surprised though, that in a small scene like this, people think they can act a fool and remain anonymous.

The flip is true... in Boston it took me 5 years to get decent press... in Ireland after making music for 4 months I got national press, producers interest, label interest and PHONE CALLS from a few people I would NEVER have access to somewhere like the UK or NYC/Boston/LA/etc.

If you aren't a dick, the small scene can really work for you....

...if you ARE, then you'll be sussed pretty quickly.

Just keep on being good... it'll resolve itself... going down the whole legally enforceable contract route is pretty tough man... you'll spend a LOT and probably not do a heck of a lot to ACTUALLY protect yourself.

IMO OC.

Welease

dav nagle wrote: »

It's times like these I wonder whats the point.

I want to just clear this up, I am not talking about being shafted out of money, I am talking about the loyalty I have offered to an entity in the music business which has been scuffed up in my face. I am talking about being told one thing on a Wednesday and being told the polar opposite via email two days later. This is not about recording its about 'the showbiz' elements.

It's difficult to know without more detail, but it sounds like the classic non business person speaking to business person commitment

You run a business so have to have a medium/long term view of what you are doing (as do I) and be organised.. the other person may not (standard musician) and may not understand the ramifications of flip flopping decisions on a daily basis..
Your word is your bond.. their word is their opinion .. today.. and it might be different tomorrow. (I used to get it all the time, till they understood they went way down my priority list and that started to effect them personally.. now they make more effort)

Or they might just be dicks...

dav nagle

There is no loyalty when a quick buck can be made and all I can say I don't roll like that and never will. You can break an agreement with someone in business, there is nothing wrong with that, but have the decency to call 'the giver' as opposed to doing it by email.

Welease

Well I always tend to look at the potential value going forward..

If its worth it for you to stay available for them, then shrug it off and next time get more concrete commitments, and know that nothing is certain till they have paid for the work..

If it has no medium or long term value to you.. they chalk it down to experience and don't deal with them again..

There is no real material loss (I assume), just disappointment.. It happens, don't take it personally.

Neurojazz

Burned a few times, once big time.

Money talks, bull**** walks.

One example was recent...

I got a call from someone really eager to engage and do a remix of an old track of mine. They already recorded it and had approached the publisher about usage and the publisher came back to me and said 'what you want to do?'

After talking with the remixers directly and hearing about 2 hours of empty promises and bull i made sure the publisher got the cuts and i never counted 1 iota of all the other extraneous crap to follow through - i just made sure my ass was covered and i was going to get money.

Also, we had a misuse recently of some material and the legal cost of actually chasing it wasn't worth it - sometimes the contracts an all the protection is useless if the abusers keep it low scale.

dav nagle

Welease wrote: »

Well I always tend to look at the potential value going forward..

If its worth it for you to stay available for them, then shrug it off and next time get more concrete commitments, and know that nothing is certain till they have paid for the work..

If it has no medium or long term value to you.. they chalk it down to experience and don't deal with them again..

There is no real material loss (I assume), just disappointment.. It happens, don't take it personally.

Yes it is just disappointment but I do take it personally, I can't help it, my business is my baby.

Welease

dav nagle wrote: »

Yes it is just disappointment but I do take it personally, I can't help it, my business is my baby.

Your next contract won't come from looking back..only from looking forward

dasdog

I remember one of the guys from soundcrowd in 1998 was giving a demo in the temple bar music centre and said that the music business was peppered with drug addicts, hangers on, cowboys and shysters who want a slice of the pie (I'm paraphrasing of course). That struck a chord with me and a few months later I packed in my aspirations of working in music for a living and I turned to a more standard industry (software). Being broke the whole time also played a part but it was one of the best moves I've made (I'm only 18 months back in to home recording after a ten year break*). Of course there are people (many here) that have good careers in production and such but what's described on this thread is something I glad to say I've never come accross in the less glamorous white collar world - not that it doesn't happen there or in other walks of life either however.

*I've just put a pickup on an acoustic. Last time I played an acoustic with a pickup I wasn't long out of primary school

stkio

MilanPan!c wrote: »

The flip is true... in Boston it took me 5 years to get decent press... in Ireland after making music for 4 months I got national press, producers interest, label interest and PHONE CALLS from a few people I would NEVER have access to somewhere like the UK or NYC/Boston/LA/etc.

National press? From what I can tell you got one single sentence in a supplement of the Irish Times. One sentence.

Is that really something to hold up as an amazing achievment that we all have to be reminded of again and again?

You take every available opportunity to blow your own ego trumpet and steer threads back to talking about you.

As somebody said before, you talk the talk, but you most certainly do not walk the walk. All the material you have posted has been average at best, but mostly dire when you consider the hype you try to build up around yourself. There's many posters on this board who are far ahead of you in terms of creativity, talent and success, yet they refrain from spamming boards with self indulgent vomit.

Sorry, but I'm just sick of you poking your head into threads and really contributing nothing but your own self agenda.

Welease

Wait... /grabs popcorn... proceed...

(sadly i think this useful thread needs to be locked now before it decends any further.. pity )

dav nagle

How come my threads always get hijacked!!
I am heading out when I get back this thread better remain open!

Rockshamrover

dav nagle wrote: »

How come my threads always get hijacked!!
I am heading out when I get back this thread better remain open!

Dav, Any chance of one of your famous poems on this subject. They always bring a smile to my face.

ICN

Rockshamrover wrote: »

Dav, Any chance of one of your famous poems on this subject. They always bring a smile to my face.

Yes! and more pictures!

Seziertisch

stkio wrote: »

National press? From what I can tell you got one single sentence in a supplement of the Irish Times. One sentence.

Is that really something to hold up as an amazing achievment that we all have to be reminded of again and again?

You take every available opportunity to blow your own ego trumpet and steer threads back to talking about you.

As somebody said before, you talk the talk, but you most certainly do not walk the walk. All the material you have posted has been average at best, but mostly dire when you consider the hype you try to build up around yourself. There's many posters on this board who are far ahead of you in terms of creativity, talent and success, yet they refrain from spamming boards with self indulgent vomit.

Sorry, but I'm just sick of you poking your head into threads and really contributing nothing but your own self agenda.

Good to have you on board, stkio. Positive contributions are always welcome, like saying that you think another poster's music is s**t and that you basically think he is a c**t, and all that in your very first post on boards. Charming.

ICN

Seziertisch wrote: »

Good to have you on board, stkio. Positive contributions are always welcome, like saying that you think another poster's music is s**t and that you basically think he is a c**t, and all that in your very first post on boards. Charming.

Yeah.. 1st post - Would love to know who it really is!

Welease

Seziertisch wrote: »

Good to have you on board, stkio. Positive contributions are always welcome, like saying that you think another poster's music is s**t and that you basically think he is a c**t, and all that in your very first post on boards. Charming.

I suspect it's a more well know poster hiding their identity..
(if someone does have a big issue with it, report it, and I'm sure a mod can check the IP and nab the real offender)

Which begs the question.. on a anonymous board with anonymous login names... how much more anonynimity do you need just to call someone a twat? or is Ireland really that small a scene?

Now that the drama is gone.. I'm just holding out for the poem...

i57dwun4yb1pt8

stkio wrote: »

National press? From what I can tell you got one single sentence in a supplement of the Irish Times. One sentence.

Is that really something to hold up as an amazing achievment that we all have to be reminded of again and again?

You take every available opportunity to blow your own ego trumpet and steer threads back to talking about you.
.

re this first time poster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDdX02xK32I

Rockshamrover

ICN wrote: »

Yeah.. 1st post - Would love to know who it really is!

+1

Rockshamrover

Welease wrote: »

Now that the drama is gone.. I'm just holding out for the poem...

I'll do the first line (God, another collaboration)

There was a young man called Dav
who had a run in with a Chav

Neurojazz

Welease wrote: »

I suspect it's a more well know poster hiding their identity..

Well, judging by the quality of the use of english, grammer and eloquence I can only guess that its PB ;P

ICN

Neurojazz wrote: »

Well, judging by the quality of the use of english, grammer and eloquence I can only guess that its PB ;P

B ollocks. I was just about to write that!!!!

PB +1

MilanPan!c

stkio wrote: »

National press? From what I can tell you got one single sentence in a supplement of the Irish Times. One sentence.

Is that really something to hold up as an amazing achievment that we all have to be reminded of again and again?

You take every available opportunity to blow your own ego trumpet and steer threads back to talking about you.

As somebody said before, you talk the talk, but you most certainly do not walk the walk. All the material you have posted has been average at best, but mostly dire when you consider the hype you try to build up around yourself. There's many posters on this board who are far ahead of you in terms of creativity, talent and success, yet they refrain from spamming boards with self indulgent vomit.

Sorry, but I'm just sick of you poking your head into threads and really contributing nothing but your own self agenda.

wow