Why is outrigger scene so important? (SPOILER)

Marcaiocht_Tonn

I see internet chatter all over the place about whether or not the outrigger shootout will be resolved, and equivalent upset that the writers said it won't be.

Now, while I think it would be cool to see it from the other boat's perspective, why is it so important though? Isn't it likely that they just-time warped to some place where the Others or someone were paddling around and took a pot-shot at them? In a place where the losties are constantly being shot at by someone, what other significance could it have?

homerun_homer

What is so important about it is that the writers created this scene knowing the end date was the next series so clearly created this set up with an intention & possibly a future twist for fans to get salivating and debating over. They showed the losties arrive at a beach with Ajira items before we knew of the Ajira plane and then steal an outrigger. They get shot at and shoot someone back in return and then skip through time.
The fact that they have shot it down on getting resolved when they had made a game plan especially after possibly the worst (really 2nd worst) episode of Lost - which should have been the holy grail of episodes - is a kick in the teeth and is undoing all the good work they had built up. The amount of justifying a Lost fan has to do to the naysayers and those who say they don’t know what’s going on or have a plan... things like this are in their favour.

opinion guy

Honestly I don't get why people are so obsessed with this scene. Really I could care less. THey jumped thru time and some people shot at them. Its not like they havne't been shot at before by randomers on the island. Now what would be funny is if it turned out they were shooting at themselves:D

homerun_homer

opinion guy wrote: »

Honestly I don't get why people are so obsessed with this seen. Really I could care less. THey jumped thru time and some people shot at them. Its not like they havne't been shot at before by randomers on the island. Now what would be funny is if it turned out they were shooting at themselves:D

Which is what is so frustrating about this scene. It was created with an intention and they just decided to throw it away and not fulfill on it. as I say, the outriggers were picked up post-Ajira crash so it would be more of a requirement for an answer than if they skipped back in time pre-Ajira, then you can just say "oh it was the Others".

But now you theorise that because Locke was on the outrigger someone at the time knowing that Locke will become Smokey sees him and tries to kill him so MIB can't go on with his grand scheme.

It was a great idea that's now Lost - pardon the pun.

opinion guy

Meh. I don't see how its any different to a half a dozen other lose ends. I think the point it that even travellign thru time the damn island or its inhabitants are out to get our losties. I don't need any more than that personally.

uncleoswald

To the story itself its not important at all, I couldn't care less about it.

However symbolically, as a test of the writers story telling ability, it is very important and probably ultimately damning.

It was a little mystery introduced late in the game, when they were already planning the route to the finale, so it can't be dismissed like a lot of the earlier mysteries such as Walt or the statue. It clearly was designed to get resolved at some point this season but they have all but admitted they haven't found a way to work it into the current plot.

We first have to think of it from the point of view of them sitting down to write season 5. They planned out a neat little time loop trick that would have everyone exited. At the time they knew who was going to be on the mysterious outrigger, knew which one would get shot and presumably knew the motive for them shooting at the Losties. But when they sat down to write this season the figured out they couldn't do it, either because they couldn't juggle all their different groups into the correct numbers or could no longer justify a reason for them to be shooting at the Losties.

And that is why it is so damning. Lindelof and Cuse are constantly saying that they have had it all mapped out. Any criticism are dismissed with a "well that's just the way we want to tell the story" which is fine and it covers their asses in most respects. However they can't dismiss this as easily. Its not like that episode "The Little Prince" needed more action so as far as I can see the only reason for throwing it in was for them to show us how-oh-so-clever they are. It should have been a fairly straightforward time travel loop, the only one they had to keep to really, and they messed it up.

It is all so half arsed.

opinion guy

Ah you see. I don't believe them that they had it all planned out - at least not in the detail people expect. So really i don't need to see anymore to prove it either way

Marcaiocht_Tonn

Ah the fuss over this makes more sense now. So if it was a post-Ajira event, then the other outrigger was probably meant to be Ilana and her cronies - but that falls down as we if one of them was shot during that chase, we should have heard about that when the story caught up with itself and showed the post-Ajira events unfolding.
They should have had a scene where they find one of their boats missing, see an outrigger with the recently-teleported-in-losties in the distance paddling away, give chase, have a shootout, suffer a casualty and return to the beach. Of course, having witnessed the losties outrigger flashing out of existence before their eyes. Then, they'd a have a mystery on their hands but for once we'd know the answer. Following that the main season 6 storyline could continue, albeit with Ilana and her cronies somewhat puzzled at what just happened. People see crazy things on that island all the time, so wouldn't be that much of an interruption, and equally not that strange for them to witness such an event and never bother to speak of it again - something that seems to happen a lot!

uncleoswald

opinion guy wrote: »

Ah you see. I don't believe them that they had it all planned out - at least not in the detail people expect. So really i don't need to see anymore to prove it either way

What I'm saying is they didn't have it planned out. They only had a Point A and a Point B and thought they would be able to get from one to the other. But having not planned it properly they found once they sat down to do it they couldn't. If you are saying you don't even think they had a Point B I think you are wrong. Lindeloff and Cuse have been very good about dismissing criticism of this kind of stuff. Either saying things like this aren't important and never were meant to be resolved or saying they simply didn't have time. But in this case they have admitted they simply couldn't work it out logistically. That is why its a little different.

opinion guy

uncleoswald wrote: »

What I'm saying is they didn't have it planned out. They only had a Point A and a Point B and thought they would be able to get from one to the other. But having not planned it properly they found once they sat down to do it they couldn't. If you are saying you don't even think they had a Point B I think you are wrong. Lindeloff and Cuse have been very good about dismissing criticism of this kind of stuff. Either saying things like this aren't important and never were meant to be resolved or saying they simply didn't have time. But in this case they have admitted they simply couldn't work it out logistically. That is why its a little different.

No I think there is a point B. I just don't think this point is particularly important. Like you say - they had no clear idea to get to point B. In my head point B is a "wouldn't it be cool if" type scenario rather than "the end will be X Y Z" type scenario

uncleoswald

opinion guy wrote: »

No I think there is a point B. I just don't think this point is particularly important. Like you say - they had no clear idea to get to point B. In my head point B is a "wouldn't it be cool if" type scenario rather than "the end will be X Y Z" type scenario

Well then we agree. And I also don't think its important. But I just think it leaves them with egg on their faces, like the show off kid who attempts a wheelie on his new BMX and ends up in hospital.

mkeano

I always defended Lost, always but they have started to go down a path which has left me so angry that I feel like I've just wasted 6 years. The scene itself is not important, the fact that the writers have disregarded continuity so many times and leave mysteries unresolved is a cop out. They really do seem to be making it up as they go or changing their minds as they go. The Adam & Eve 40 years v 2000 years thing...maybe their skeletons don't age like Richard doesn't age...I've listened to their podcasts on the ABC website and Carlton Cuse seems to be the main advocate for leaving questions unresolved. He also has a major chip on his shoulder that JJ Abrams still gets so much credit for Lost.

I personally want answers. That is why I watched the show, I love mystery but only if the mystery is resolved. I accept some people are happy to run with it and I am still hoping they pull it around. I really hope they do. A lot of people are suggesting this extra 30 minutes in the finale has been added because of negative feedback from pre-screening of Across the Sea. Hopefully this will help give this great story a good and satisfactory ending.

Mr.Nice Guy

It's important because the test of good writing is tying up all the loose ends. There's no use in throwing in lots of mysterious stuf and then not being able to explain it. That just means there was no thought process behind it.

Most shows wouldn't be able to get away with this but we have a curious situation with this show where:

1) Fans have come to know the writers via their various interactions with the audience and thus are willing to defend them vehemently.

2) They have written so much mysterious stuff that people are actually willing to let them off the hook, because there won't be enough time to deal with everything.

In regards to the second point, to use an analogy it's a bit like a mother telling her son to clean his room before the grandparents come over. They are coming in 10 minutes however, and the room is so messy, that the mother just shrugs her shoulders and tells the kid to just clean the main stuff, and ignore the stray socks all over the place.

At the end of the day it is still sloppy.

cooker3

Well my take is that it's clearly Illana and her crew, I mean who else could it be? They didn't use it as her character wasn't working and the actress was a bit **** so they didn't bother with a flashback for her and hence couldn't find a way to do the scene.

I do agree with the general sentiment. The scene itself is not too important in of itself but the lack of resolution and their justification is not good enough.

Mr. Incognito

The scene and their arrogant reaction to the fan's has become a focal point of what feels like a betrayal.

If they had explained it and said, look we didn't have enough time to fit it in but it's XYZ, then people would be like, okay, makes sense. Realise it's a minor thing and we could all move on, but the "oh, we know, we're not telling you, magic cloth approach they have taken makes me and a lot of people think do they even know themselves?

And then, how much else was winged? Judging by the last episode, I'm guessing. A Lot.

Lothaar v2

cooker3 wrote: »

Well my take is that it's clearly Illana and her crew, I mean who else could it be?

I reckon it was supposed to be Sawyer. Juliet shot the person in the other outrigger. It'd be a very Lost-esque twist if it turned out that Juliet shot Sawyer while she traveled through time. Then, the icing on the cake - they meet up in the alternate reality and 'go for coffee', as per Juliet's last words in the island reality. This could easily be tied-in to revealing something about the meaning of the alternate reality. It'd be great.

My guess is that they needed to keep Saywer alive until the final episode, then couldn't figure out a good reason for him to be on an outrigger, so they dropped it. They should have put the scene in 'The Candidate', but I suppose they needed Sawyer to be on the sub so he could interfere with the bomb (which is BS anyway).

I like Lost and I've enjoyed every episode this season immensely. This nonsense with the outrigger is extremely disappointing. It's just bad storytelling, it's lazy and it's not fitting of such a great series.

jimbling

uncleoswald wrote: »

And that is why it is so damning. Lindelof and Cuse are constantly saying that they have had it all mapped out.

I agree with pretty much everything in your post, but I'm curious about this. Are they really constantly saying this? Can you give me a link. Every interview I read with them it basically comes across they are writing it like every other program gets written.
Perhaps, hopefully, and overall arc was there, but I never believed it was all mapped out. Even from last season to this.

Sad Professor

Yeah, I've never come across any interview in which the writers said they had everything planned. They've often dodged or fudged the question, but in more relaxed environments they've been pretty honest. In fact, if you listen to the commentary track for the pilot Abrams jokes about making stuff up on set and saying "we'll figure it out later". What people have to understand is that when a writer says they have a "plan" they mean they have a few hastily written scribbles on a napkin somewhere. And even that is always subject to change.

I reckon that generally speaking the writers had an answer to most of the mysteries at the time they introduced them. But over time these ideas changed, evolved, even improved. Having a plan doesn't necessarily mean it's a good plan. If a writer comes up with a better idea at a later point they'd be crazy not to implement it. A good television writer is constantly responding to what they are seeing in the dallies. They have to, if they don't the show gets cancelled and all their plans mean nothing. If an actor or character isn't working they have to go, to hell with the plan. If another character is working, they should be expanded and given a bigger role.

In the end, whether they had a master plan or not doesn't really matter. Ron Moore freely admitted to making BSG up as he went along, but that wasn't what hurt that show. What hurt the show was that he also thought continuity was for "sissies". My point is we should forget about whether they had a "plan" or not and focus on whether things make sense and fit with what went before. And for the most part it does, better than most shows. As for what doesn't, well, you'll be hearing what I have to say about that after the finale.

Anyway, regarding the outrigger scene, I cared about who the shooters were last season. I really don't care now. One of the big mistakes the writers made throughout the show was that they often made simple plot devices belonging to a particular season into mysteries. Then they forgot them and decided they'd resolve them in a later season. The problem was by the time they finally got around to answering them no one cared anymore and they had no relevance to the current season. The result was usually awkward scenes of exposition (e.g. Widmore revealing he faked the plane crash).

Like a lot of things, the outrigger scene was a plot device, not a real mystery. It should have been resolved last season and it was a mistake that it wasn't. The writers obviously realised this and decided it wasn't worth the detour. Having said that, with all the pissing around on boats this season it wouldn't taken much to resolve.

homerun_homer

Lothaar v2 wrote: »

Then, the icing on the cake - they meet up in the alternate reality and 'go for coffee', as per Juliet's last words in the island reality.

Who knows, they might ditch this as easily as they ditched the outrigger and we'll never see who Juliet goes for coffee with.

jimbling

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

The scene and their arrogant reaction to the fan's has become a focal point of what feels like a betrayal.

If they had explained it and said, look we didn't have enough time to fit it in but it's XYZ, then people would be like, okay, makes sense. Realise it's a minor thing and we could all move on, but the "oh, we know, we're not telling you, magic cloth approach they have taken makes me and a lot of people think do they even know themselves?

That's not at all what they've said. They spelled it out really. Basically, they planned to write in the resolution, they had an idea of what they were going to do but when it came to it this season they found it difficult to do. Since it was just an easter egg anyway, they decided to leave it out.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

And then, how much else was winged? Judging by the last episode, I'm guessing. A Lot.

I dont think you realise how much is winged in all these types of shows.

uncleoswald

jimbling wrote: »

I agree with pretty much everything in your post, but I'm curious about this. Are they really constantly saying this?

Sorry, my bad. Wasn't the most well written sentence and "all mapped out" was certainly the wrong phrase. Clearly they have had to wing the show to a huge extent and I have no problem with that. What I was referring to was them defending specific elements, such as: The end is going to be the one they always envisioned, Walt's story arc was as intended as they knew the actor who played him was going to age faster then the show would progress, and knowing all along who the skeletons in the cave were going to be all along.

The claims above seem unlikely to me but I can't prove them wrong, its not like they have been caught out in a lie or anything and I don't even know why they would lie but I think we've heard all we are going to hear on them. So if anything the outrigger scene is an opportuinity to learn about the planning process that goes on in the backround. I'm genuinely just curious as to what they intended for the outrigger scene and would love to hear the idea behind it and what led to them not been able to do it. They made such a song and dance about finally having an end-date and how it would mean they could provide a clear path to the final that I think its genuinely odd that they made a balls of this. Its like Mr. Eko leaving, I'd love to hear how they had to change the show around that and how different would it have been if he had stayed.

Sad Professor wrote: »

Like a lot of things, the outrigger scene was a plot device, not a real mystery. It should have been resolved last season and it was a mistake that it wasn't.

But this wasn't a plot devise. It was quite randomly introduced into an episode for no reason reason and didn't lead anywhere except to a trademark Sawyer quip. So its natural that people wondered if it was going to be important from the other end.

cooker3 wrote: »

Well my take is that it's clearly Illana and her crew, I mean who else could it be?

Lothaar v2 wrote: »

I reckon it was supposed to be Sawyer.

If either was true then what would their motivation be for shooting first? Ilana was meant to be protecting certain people not shooting at people randomly and Sawyer isn't that trigger happy.

Anyway, not important, just curious.

Sad Professor

uncleoswald wrote: »

But this wasn't a plot devise. It was quite randomly introduced into an episode for no reason reason and didn't lead anywhere except to a trademark Sawyer quip. So its natural that people wondered if it was going to be important from the other end.

No, the other outrigger was most definitely a plot device because they used it as an excuse for the chase scene. In any other show who was shooting at them and why would had to have been explained right there and then for plot reasons. But because Lost is a "mystery show" the writers were often able to get away with putting things like that on the back burner.

Of course, it could be argued that every mystery in the show started life as a plot device. i.e. at a certain point in the pilot Abrams needed an action scene so an unseen "monster" appears out of no where and chases his heroes through the jungle.

But, look, your right. Anything that was presented as a mystery, even if it was only a plot device, should have been answered. But the outrigger business is a pretty minor detail in the overall picture.

jimbling

Also, why is the outrigger so important and the people that shot fire arrows and killed feck load of people not talked about at all?
Was that answered?
Perhaps I'm not remembering it correctly.

Sad Professor

I think the Others were behind the flaming arrow attack.

jimbling

Sad Professor wrote: »

I think the Others were behind the flaming arrow attack.

Is that just an assumption, or was it referenced/insinuated at some stage?

Sad Professor

I'm not too sure tbh. I was always a bit vague on it as well. But I think Richard might have mentioned something about it later. They attacked them thinking they were US army troops.

RolandIRL

Sad Professor wrote: »

I'm not too sure tbh. I was always a bit vague on it as well. But I think Richard might have mentioned something about it later. They attacked them thinking they were US army troops.

i think i remember Ricardo saying that. 5th season's a bit of a blur at this point though :P just focused on 6th season. after it's finished, then come the questions

Lothaar v2

uncleoswald wrote: »

If either was true then what would their motivation be for shooting first? Ilana was meant to be protecting certain people not shooting at people randomly and Sawyer isn't that trigger happy.

Anyway, not important, just curious.

Based on the information we have to date, there is no obvious motive. However, if the writers chose to resolve this, they could easily create a motive. What if Sawyer thought it was Flocke, figures water is his weakness, and shoots at him? What if there is a skirmish on the island and Kate, Hurley and Sawyer leggit in an outrigger. They'd conceivably treat anyone they met on the water as hostile.

There are a zillion ways to resolve this. The writers must have decided that creating such a scenario would somehow detract from the rest of the story. Or maybe they thought of a better way for Sawyer to die (yep I'm sure it was supposed to be him!).

I guess the reason THIS is important is because it was an intriguing concept during the time-travel portion of the show. What if they shot at themselves?!? What if they killed a good friend? The very inclusion of it hinted at the accidental killing of a main character, by time-travelling Losties, at some point in season 6. But they dropped it, which is lame.