DPS meters

pablomakaveli

I came across this article which i thought raised some good points about misuse of DPS meters.

http://www.wow.com/2010/01/23/arcane-brilliance-why-i-hate-dps-meters/

I know they can be useful but i kind of agree with a lot of points this guy makes.

For example i was doing a random a few weeks ago and after we had pulled and beaten the first mob the tank posted the damage recount and started complaining about the amount of damage done by me and a warrior and then started insulting us and left. I also find some guys posting up damage recount to show off.

Anyway what does everyone else think?

Anti

All damage meters should be uninstalled and forgotten about.

Gummy Panda

Guild i'm in now has damage meter ban.

Not allowed use them in raids as people become idiots for higher numbers while team work is more important. If you are on interrupts, you interrupt. I kinda noticed i developed some bad habits from it.

jabberwock

Anti wrote: »

All damage meters should be uninstalled and forgotten about.

but.. but.. but... what will I rub in people faces then....

Nah, if they are used correctly they are essential. Just most don't use them correctly.

Canis Lupus

I like to use them to know that I'm on the right track but otherwise couldn't give a flock what other peoples output is as long as **** dies.

On the otherhand this new gear score add on leaves me feeling nekkid. I hates it

Noxin

Damage meter, aka epeen meter are handy for raid leaders imo. It's nice to know who is doing their job and who is not.. Not only for damage done but healing, interrupts etc...

As for someone posting it after killing one mob... that's retarded. It's very easy to run into the first mob, pop cooldowns & trinkets and say "lolunublookatmydps" /quit.

I use it on a personal level to know what my DPS is like in heroics, especially with a fresh 80. Pointless trying to join a raid if you cannot sustain a fairly good dps level in a heroic. Saying that, I never sp0m it to the party, even if nubs are asking for it. Unless of course its some pleb who is annoying me all through the instance only to find out his dps was complete rubbish. :pac:

magicianz

Personally i like having my epeen stroked in pugs by beating raiders with kingslayer achievement and gear on my casual boomkin :P

But yeah it does destroy team play, marrowgar 25 pug for example, me and a guildie topped dps meters, him being a big raider in my guild beat me in dps by about 400, look at the meters.....my dps on spikes 10% of my total for fight, his 0% >.> and he saw nothing wrong at all with it >.> i wonder how my guild is progressing in heroics >.>

What I hate the most is in random groups, every 2 f* minutes "dmg meter pls"

1/ Get your own sodding damage meter and stfu
2/ Stop obsessing about it and just dps!!

I swear one day I got about 4 groups in a row where at least one person was asking about it.
It's useful enough to get a general idea of how well you are doing, and probably for the raidleaders to see what's what, but if you're obsessing over every bit of it, it's time to uninstall it

djiv!de

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Guild i'm in now has damage meter ban.

Not allowed use them in raids as people become idiots for higher numbers while team work is more important. If you are on interrupts, you interrupt. I kinda noticed i developed some bad habits from it.

I would assume you are also not doing icc25 hard modes? having a blanket ban on damage meters is just stupid. Knowing how to read the data is much more important. By the way i am talking about raids and end game raids at that. I couldn't care less about the joke that is 5man heroics.

If you see two equally geared people of same class doing exact same job yet one is constantly lower dps then there is something up. If people dont die in fire get mc'ed at BQL etc, do what they are asked and expected to do and still top dps then whats wrong with having the meter?

People who "become idiots for higher numbers" at the expense of the rest of the raid dont last too long in good end game guilds. Same goes for people not pulling their weight when it comes to good dps output.

Gummy Panda

Sorry I worded that wrong. Not allowed post them in raids. Officiers log results and talk to people under performing.

I don't think they have much issues in regards to low performance as they don't recruit. Everyone in guild is vouched for by existing member.

TheDoc

I think its pretty essential. Yes there are points at where its annoying when it gets spammed posted and theres a bit of slagging going on.

But the positives tremendously outweight the cons.

Its essential to know what your dps are doing, and how they are doing. We run ingame recount and world of logs. We can then analyse the meters post raid. From this we can see

Whose showing improvement
Whose slacking
Whose getting worse
At what point is everyone doing the highest dps, so we can blow heroism at that point.

And much more. There is so much more.

When I get a new piece of gear, I can see if I'm doing better or worse.
If I make a new spec, I can see hows its performing.

We can see whose doing what damage to adds. For example lich king, we can see what players are best suited to sitting on vile spirits.
We can se eif anyone is slacking on spikes etc.

There is so much positives, I could never imagine this game without, and calling for it to be "removed" is simply short of unbelieveable comment.

You can do the same on healers, see how they are doing, good bad etc.


If I was told I could keep one mod it would be recount.




**

It should be noted that theres no excuse against recount to say for example " o that rogue was just focusing on marrowgar and not spikes so he could top meters"

Any raid leader worth his salt would check immediatly after the boss, to see what dmg was done on spikes, and he would quickly see the rogue did none.

Resulting in a kick, hopefully.

Recount lets there be nowhere to hide for anyone.

Without a way to disect dmg and healing, you could slack till kingdom come and get away with it.

Robby91

I think its pretty essential.

Well, from a personal or guild perspective, it's useful, but for the sake of PUG's (be it raids or 5mans), it's a pain in the hole 90% of the time since you get those gobsh!tes rolling their jaw across the keyboard, instead of their face, so they can read the DPS meters while they fail :P

Although, in the guild raids I participate in, we keep Recount data to ourselves - we aren't in it purely for progression, we raid to have some fun and kill some stuff, so we aren't exceptionally strict on people's performance (although, if we do see someone performing really poorly, the officers would mention it). At least within guilds, it's easier to put Recount to better use since people are more likely to listen to a guild-mate than an LFD group member on how to put the addon to better use

We can se eif anyone is slacking on spikes etc.

You don't need Recount to see this, in 10man at least, if you're moderately observant - from doing Marrowgar as tank and DPS (separate occasions, of course), I can see if someone is slacking on helping the spiked player. I try and keep an eye out for various spell animations and effects though, since I can usually identify most of the spells used by our regular raid members based on the effect I see

If I was told I could keep one mod it would be recount.

I'd probably go with Omen :P

TheDoc

I can guarantee you i could look like im hitting a spike, or hitting a frozen orb on torovan, but not actually be doing it.

Robby91

TheDoc wrote: »

I can guarantee you i could look like im hitting a spike, or hitting a frozen orb on torovan, but not actually be doing it.

I'm watching you! :P

Anyway, that's you (although, don't doubt my observational skills Q.Q) and not everyone may be as crafty as you... or perhaps my guild-mates are just not very good at pretending to be aware

Magill

Very important player tool imo, at least for those that constantly want to improve their game. I have always raided with the intention of putting out as much damage as i possibly can (Not in a retarded, tunnelvisioned way).

I would recommend not having it opened during boss fight tho, gets distracting watching your mage put out 16k dps for the first 30 seconds . I guess if your guild uses wmo or wws then you dont need it at all. Wow meters oline are great tho, especially for raid leaders and officers.

Oh yeah... i've ALWAYS been number 1 dps!! MUAHAHA

TheDoc

recount should be a kick in arse motivator.

Distraction? I dont see how, if anything it will encourage good habbits.

I was absolutely astonished to learn that over half of my raid that i play with, most of the time are looking at their spellbar for cooldowns :O I couldnt believe it

I have so many mods running, one of which is a dot timer and a spereate cooldown timer, and they are positioned at different portions of my screen, I never, EVEr if rarely look at the spellbar.

I'm usually looking at the raid environment to see if theres **** i need to dodge, looking at the boos health, then over to meters to check my dps, then grid to see healing, then my timers, my cooldowns, back to raid enviroment, etc etc etc etc

All this happens in seconds.

I probably check my dps every 20 seconds

Berns

TheDoc wrote: »

If I was told I could keep one mod it would be recount.

DBM here :rolleyes:

Dustaz

TheDoc wrote: »

I probably check my dps every 20 seconds

Thats a bad habit to get into :P

Recount is vital for us as a raiding guild, for all the reasons outlined above. To say its useless is well, i wont go there im already in trouble for arguing enough. Suffice to say, if you dont think recount is one of the most important tools ingame, then you dont raid enough.

Of course its useless for dungeons, but hey, heroic dungeons are useless.

Personally i turn off SCT/Parrot for raid encounters because i really dont need to see the numbers as they happen and theyre just a distraction. I do look at recount after the kill/wipe though to see how i or others did.

TheDoc

Dustaz wrote: »

Thats a bad habit to get into :P

Its grand sure, ma and dad paid for me to get a 15% buff to visual reactions and awareness, so I can check it faster....

magicianz

Roll boomkin, i get out the realtime graph function in recount and watch my dps for most of the fight :P

TheDoc

<--- boomkin

magicianz

/highfive

TheDoc

magicianz

Just as a matter of interest and to drag this off topic, whats your stance on 2t9/2t10 versus 4t10 (no upgraded versions of either) ?

TheDoc

T10 all the way.

Languish pays itself back big style.

I dropped four set for an icc10 to use a heroic headpiece I got, and afterwards just changed back to T10, its by far superior using the four set and its a must for every boomkin.

The sanct pieces are also best in slot, so its step 1 really.

Also remember that when you get soft haste capped, and crit capped, you will want to start stacking haste up big time.

Your priority after caps goes

Spellpower > Haste > Crit

The T10 head and chest give both crit and haste, so its a real no brainer.
The Shoulders and gloves are easy acquired to make your 4set, and theres nothing much better.

If you want to max out, get the leggings of woven death crafted for your druid, or grab the festergut heroic pants ( i think) from ten man, these also rank up high on your biS list.

Failing that I guess you can grab the legs and use the hit.

Also, nibelung all the way.

Been following closely to the talk of bonespike/offhand or nibelung.

Valkyres account for between 3-4% of my overall dps, something that static stats can never replace, so although im losing out on some haste , I'm gaining in overall damage.

I've passed the lich king staff twice now and lost bonespike on two occasions but not too worried. I can see myself holding onto Nibelung for the rest of the expansion.


And tonight I found out, that your Valykres can get vile gassed on fester and rotface heroic, but even if you stand beside them you dont get the gas. A nice little additional bug

But yeah, ditch your T9 if your still rocking it

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Outland&cn=Kromus

Thats my armoury, just waiting to upgrade those wrists to heroic, grab muradin spyglass and another trinket and replace the labyrthn ring and im pretty happy.

O and sanct gear obviously, but I'm not getting much luck with rolls.

magicianz

Ive been looking at various logs from fights with similarly geared boomkins and the bonus from both set ups are quite equal, which means 2t9 could be better for high movement fights! Just saving up frost on the druid now myself but still need over 200 for my new gear >.>

Also the stacking haste after starfire crit cap, i haven't been able to find any definate info on this, with people picking crit or haste. I see the dps increase from both but i would be sitting in the crit corner myself! Increased solar phase damage and higher chance to enter lunar phase, crit chance gives higher languish return overall, and higher uptime of NG. Whereas haste gives increased lunar phase nuke, but pushes your wrath under GCD which lowers its effectiveness. I feel crit would be better combined with the 4t10.


I dont get to raid much myself atm but ill be starting over the summer setting up a new guild with some friends and we already have got current members from one of the best known raiding guilds on our server so there is a possibility we could get LK down first run and if not, 11/12 is definate. And one of them said he'd just get into an LK 10 kill run to get hm for us so heres to gearing up over the summer :P

TheDoc

nice one.

I started up a 10man irish guild with some regular raiders, and we got 12/12 first week with 6 hard modes.

Last night finished our second 12/12 with 7 hard modes.

Next week gunning for PP hard mode and then the 12/12 as usual.


Boomkin is a hard class to get solid facts for when it comes to stats etc.

The weapon choice is such a variable especially with nibelung.
From my understanding and my own number crunching, I find I operate better prioritising spellpower then haste after cap.

I'm at about 45% crit which is two nearly three percent over, I'm even gemmed for haste. (reckless everywhere)

My haste is sitting at about 700 or 780 cant remember.

My Wrath isnt at the 1second mark yet but when it is I'll jsut stop stacking haste, although I think its impossible to hit hard cap from my reading, so its just a case of getting as much as you can.

I'm happy with my setup of T10 4pc and my other pieces, and my rotation feels fluid and solid, and starfire doesnt feel like a year cast time.

Sure at high level its all single figure stat upgrades, 9 haste here, 10 crit here etc.

magicianz

Wow nice *moves server* :P

Yeah spell power comes first usually, i use weighted stats that are averages of their overall usefulness. Spell power is 1, crit is just over .6 and haste is just over .5.

Im still building to starfire crit cap atm, my next few planned pieces should get me about 50 more crit among other things.

You know the wrath haste hard cap with natures grasp (cant remember if thats the name of the 20% haste buff even >.<) is 585? And 405 with shaman totem? im sitting on about 644 haste i think atm and on bloodlust with NG im at under 0.75 seconds cast time on my wrath

I still have a bit more gearing to do myself, still sporting some 232s myself, they shall be destroyed over the summer! and my newfound skill in money making will help me get some nice boes hopefully!

My boomkin is yensil on auchindoun, cant link atm cause im on phone. My spec needs to be changed around a small bit alright, haven't changed it in a while! And the gemming sucks too.....i should really update him xD haven't changed much in a while xD

Anti

jabberwock wrote: »

but.. but.. but... what will I rub in people faces then....

Nah, if they are used correctly they are essential. Just most don't use them correctly.

I have to respectfully disagree with you there

If you need a tool to check your dps or healing then world of logs is the way forward. The fact you can multi compare yourself and others over weeks, or months of raiding to see where you are going wrong and where you can approve.

Dustaz

Anti wrote: »

I have to respectfully disagree with you there

If you need a tool to check your dps or healing then world of logs is the way forward. The fact you can multi compare yourself and others over weeks, or months of raiding to see where you are going wrong and where you can approve.

Are you mad?

WoL is a great tool but its only useful after the raid has ended. Its good for seeing, for example, that melee perform better on certain adds by looking at performance over an entire night.

Recount tells you instantly what caused the wipe or why you hit the enrage timer. LK Valks carried 3 people over the edge? I can see a top 15 of dps on valks right there and then and see who failed miserably. Tank got "oneshot"? Check the death meter and you see whos heals were absent or that dots werent ticking.

Theres absolutely no point in comparing yourself over 'weeks or months of raiding' . Why would you do that? Guess what - your dps/hps/tps is going to go up as you get gear and adjust to the fights. What you NEED during progression is a way to see whats happening during the night and after each fight.

Respectfully, it sounds like you dont actually know how to use recount to its fullest ability. A good example is the LK encounter. If your looking at "damage done" at all, at any point in that fight - you're failing. Thats why recount (and skada) are useful. You can parse out the unnescary crap and display damage done to certain targets. When the first screenshot of a 25normal kill came out, people wet themselves over the damage Warlocks, Spriest and DKs were doing without realising why those classes were so high on overall damage.