Difficulty of CAP 1

BESman

Would I be right in assuming that since the new syllabus was introduced (and the old prof II and III examinations replaced by CAP 1 and CAP 2) that the standard and difficulty of examinations are far greater than before, particularly at CAP 1 level, which is an entry level after all.

Analysing previous examiner reports and student feedback, it appears that CAP 1 examinations, Management Accounting and Taxation in particular, receive an overwhelming amount of negative feedback and criticism in terms of their difficulty and the perceived unfairness in the nature that questions are presented in the examintion with little regard for the actual course syllabus.

Given that we are in a very uncertain and volatile economic climate with students facing extreme pressures as it is (lower training salaries than ever before, lack of job security, etc) is it not time that examiners presented fairer and more equitable exams and give students a break?

Pisco Sour

Can of worms being opened here..... and rightly so.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the CAP 1 and CAP 2 are significantly more difficult to pass than the old Prof 2 and Prof 3 exams. One only has to look at the national pass rates to see this.

The CAP 1 pass rate the year I did the exams (2008) was 55%, which for a supposedly "basic" level accountancy is utter madness. I dont have the figures for the old Prof 2, but they were significantly higher.

The CAP 2 pass rate last year was 50.5%!!!! Yes, 1 in every 2 people that sat the exams failed. Compare this to the 68% pass rate the previous year for Prof 3. The pass rate for CAP 2 within the big 4 was around the 64% mark, down from the usual 85% or so for the Prof 3.

39% of people sitting last years CAP 2 repeats passed. A staggering 61% of people failed at the second time of asking!

The most sickening of the lot is last years FAE pass rate. 88% of people in Big 4 passed and if I can remember correctly about 75% nationwide passed. That is complete madness! Literally everybody I know who sat it passed. Next year you wouldnt see such high numbers! Expect 50% to pass nationwide and around 60-65% in the Big 4 to get through them.

The old course presented the luxury of compensation. Yes people could actually FAIL one or even as many as three exams and still pass their overall exams as long as they didnt get below 40 in any exam and their average mark was above 50.

BESman

Utter madness indeed. I understand the difficulty of CAP 2 and the poor pass rates and you at least expect this as it is an intermediate level examination (however, still very low pass rates) but CAP 1 is considered, as you describe a "basic" accounting examination by most in the profession and this is just not true. Surely the examination process requires yet another complete overhaul or at least a proper review.

Pisco Sour

BESman wrote: »

Utter madness indeed. I understand the difficulty of CAP 2 and the poor pass rates and you at least expect this as it is an intermediate level examination (however, still very low pass rates) but CAP 1 is considered, as you describe a "basic" accounting examination by most in the profession and this is just not true. Surely the examination process requires yet another complete overhaul or at least a proper review.

Nothing will change as it suits the ICAI. The want to limit the numbers qualifying so it makes sense to them to:

1) Lower the pass rate
2) Make the exams harder
3) Give awful notes, and incorrect solutions
4) No compensation
5) Ask questions that are not on the syllabus

By doing this they will keep the numbers who are qualifying down and in the process cash in quite nicely with all the people paying for repeats, and to re-check their paper (which achieves about as much as eating broken glass!).

The sooner you get the idea that the ICAI cares about you out of your head the sooner you will be able to accept the situation (not easy I know!)

BESman

So happy I chose this career.

techman

Agree 100% with the above.

Doing CAP1 at the moment. There's a lot the CAI need to do to improve the delivery of CAP1.

The exams have got a lot more difficult. Just look at the old Prof II papers.

hockeygirl

I am repeating both CAP1 finance and management accounting this year having failed in 2009.

I never did accountancy in college or secondary school. I did physics in college. I decided this was the route for me as I had been working in financial services for 3 years after college and wanted a more defined career.

I can tell you now that finance and management accounting are most certainly not entry level. I had huge difficulty following the finance course last year namely down to the way it was presented in class little or no examples given and it was delivered as if we were Finance experts already!

So a friend who gained exemption from the subject due to her college course gave me her old college notes which I could follow easily enough, but in comparison to CAP1 I found the level of difficulty alot lower so her notes were no help to me at all in the end. She has been borrowing my CAP1 notes during the year to help her with CAP2 SFMA which is seriously tough from what I hear

I will never forget sitting down with my manager and trying to explain to him the difference between the exmas when he sat them and what they are today and it was like talking to a brick wall. They really have no idea..... even when I told him the pass rates... all i got was ".. they cant have been any difficult then when I sat them and if this many students in the Big 4 can pass them then why cant you.."

... emmmm maybe thats because they get more study leave then small practices!

Granted I thank my lucky stars I have the opportunity to resit as alot of students in other practices were fired. But I am seriously crapping myself that I wont pass again. Plus with management its one of the courses where you can do 200 exam questions and think you know it all and still fail the bloody exam.

luapenak

hockeygirl wrote: »

I never did accountancy in college or secondary school. I did physics in college. I decided this was the route for me as I had been working in financial services for 3 years after college and wanted a more defined career.

I can tell you now that finance and management accounting are most certainly not entry level. I had huge difficulty following the finance course last year namely down to the way it was presented in class little or no examples given and it was delivered as if we were Finance experts already!
.

Granted, Cap 1 exam do appear more difficult than previous exams. I would be tempted to argue that management accounting and finance are entry level. Although it is not easy, they do start at the beginning and the whole course can be followed by beginners. It's just a matter of going to as many lectures as you can and asking questions to lectures if necessary. All the lecturers will be helpul if your lost, once they can see you are making an effort .

I also came from Physics and did Cap 1 last year. I would have to say that although the management and finance exams were relatively difficult, all of the material in the courses was a hell of a lot easier to follow than most of the courses in the latter years of a Physics degree.

BESman

luapenak wrote: »

I also came from Physics and did Cap 1 last year. I would have to say that although the management and finance exams were relatively difficult, all of the material in the courses was a hell of a lot easier to follow than most of the courses in the latter years of a Physics degree.

I think we can accept that Physics at degree level is probably more difficult than CAP 1 exams. The main argument I'm putting forward here is that:

a) Professional exams, particularly chartered accountancy exams, are a different ball game entirely to undergraduate college exams. Most undergrad exams require only 40% to pass and are extremely predictable, the papers barely change from year to year. Also, while in college you have a hell of a lot more time to study, go to lectures, etc. Not to mention compensation.

b) CAP 1 is, in my opinion, just far too heavy and difficult for an entry level examination. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the pass rate for CAP 1 is astonishing and I have read elsewhere that ICAI have purposefully frontloaded the syllabus and examinations, putting more difficulty on entry level exams. This results in the very high pass rates seen at FAE. The logic behind this is that they wish to weed out weak students very early on and reward those that get through with more passable exams. Might seem fair, but when you're weeding out almost half of those that sit the exam, clearly there is a problem.

I just think ICAI need to take a long hard look at their entire qualification system. Trainees are expected to work long hours for sh1t money, attend lectures after work and on weekends, then study for weeks for exams that half are doomed to fail. For what? €30k a year if you're lucky? What are we training here, doctors or accountants? I just don't see the need for the all the pain and frustration. Look at solicitors, they have in my view a much fairer method of qualification and get what society perceives as a slightly better qualification and status than an accountant... and its EASIER to get it. WTF? How many arts students do people on this forum know who went on to do an LL.B and became solicitors? I know a lot and they did it with a lot less hassle than I'm going through.

Apologies for the rant....ahem..

Stabshauptmann

04072511 wrote: »

Can of worms being opened here..... and rightly so.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the CAP 1 and CAP 2 are significantly more difficult to pass than the old Prof 2 and Prof 3 exams. One only has to look at the national pass rates to see this.

The CAP 1 pass rate the year I did the exams (2008) was 55%, which for a supposedly "basic" level accountancy is utter madness. I dont have the figures for the old Prof 2, but they were significantly higher.

The CAP 2 pass rate last year was 50.5%!!!! Yes, 1 in every 2 people that sat the exams failed. Compare this to the 68% pass rate the previous year for Prof 3. The pass rate for CAP 2 within the big 4 was around the 64% mark, down from the usual 85% or so for the Prof 3.

39% of people sitting last years CAP 2 repeats passed. A staggering 61% of people failed at the second time of asking!

The most sickening of the lot is last years FAE pass rate. 88% of people in Big 4 passed and if I can remember correctly about 75% nationwide passed. That is complete madness! Literally everybody I know who sat it passed. Next year you wouldnt see such high numbers! Expect 50% to pass nationwide and around 60-65% in the Big 4 to get through them.

The old course presented the luxury of compensation. Yes people could actually FAIL one or even as many as three exams and still pass their overall exams as long as they didnt get below 40 in any exam and their average mark was above 50.

Ok can we look at the statistics quickly.
Going on the past 3 years exams under the old syllabus, the pass rate at each exam level was approx 70%

Going on the the information available for first time sittings of CAP1 and CAP2 the pass rate is approx 50%.

If the pass rate is 50% though, and 40% at repeats, then that means the number progressing to the net year is 70%.

On the face of things it seems that the pass rate has not infact changed, only that the structure has changed.
Under the old system a student had to pass the year or repeat the whole year*. A high mark in one subject could be used to compensate for a low mark in another.

Now the institute requires students to pass each subject independently, and is offering a fairer repeat process where only failed subjects need to be resat.

TBH, this approach appears to make sense. And the statistics do not yet indicate a higher "true" failure rate*.


I think there were no repeats like there are now. Exams were just offered once a year afaik, but I admittedly do not know. If there were repeats then perhaps someone could elaborate on what the actual number of students progressing was.

Pisco Sour

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Ok can we look at the statistics quickly.
Going on the past 3 years exams under the old syllabus, the pass rate at each exam level was approx 70%

Going on the the information available for first time sittings of CAP1 and CAP2 the pass rate is approx 50%.

If the pass rate is 50% though, and 40% at repeats, then that means the number progressing to the net year is 70%.

On the face of things it seems that the pass rate has not infact changed, only that the structure has changed.
Under the old system a student had to pass the year or repeat the whole year*. A high mark in one subject could be used to compensate for a low mark in another.

Now the institute requires students to pass each subject independently, and is offering a fairer repeat process where only failed subjects need to be resat.

TBH, this approach appears to make sense. And the statistics do not yet indicate a higher "true" failure rate*.


I think there were no repeats like there are now. Exams were just offered once a year afaik, but I admittedly do not know. If there were repeats then perhaps someone could elaborate on what the actual number of students progressing was.

No offence intended but your post is truely laughable.

For Prof 3 if you failed 1 subject you only had to repeat that 1 subject. For the old FAE you only had to repeat the subjects you failed.

The only exams where you had to repeat the entire set of exams was Prof 2. However the fact that the old Prof 2 was so much easier than the new CAP 1, and the fact that you could compensate for Prof 2 makes this completely irrelevant.

If the pass rate is 50% though, and 40% at repeats, then that means the number progressing to the net year is 70%.

Whats your point here? You do know that there were autumn repeats available for Prof 2 and Prof 3 aswell?

So using your rationale here: If the pass rate is 70%, and 70% for repeats (not sure what the repeat percentage was for the old course, so correct me if i'm wrong), then that means the number progressing to the next year is 91%.

Your comparisons are crazy. You are comparing first time pass rate on the old course, with a combination of first time AND repeat pass rate for the new course. This makes no sense. You clearly have no idea if you are saying such things.

Finally, the very few people who failed last year's FAE course get to repeat this May/June, just 9 months after their first sitting, and if they somehow manage to fail again, then December gives them a third bite of the cherry. After the December exam expect approx 99.9% of all people who sat the FAE 2009 exams to have eventually passed.

What about the FAE Class of 2010? Well about 50% to pass first time, and then the lucky losers will wait 12 months for another go at it, and if you fail the core exam, you sit the whole damn thing again.

Stabshauptmann

04072511 wrote: »

No offence intended but your post is truely laughable

....

You do know that there were autumn repeats available for Prof 2 and Prof 3 aswell?

...

This makes no sense. You clearly have no idea if you are saying such things.

Stabshauptmann wrote:

*

I think there were no repeats like there are now. Exams were just offered once a year afaik, but I admittedly do not know. If there were repeats then perhaps someone could elaborate on what the actual number of students progressing was.

I clearly stated that I wasnt sure how repeats worked on the old system. You tell me that I am correct in my understanding only with regard to Prof II, but not Prof III and FAE, good to know.

You didnt need to be such a twat though, considering I made it very, very clear that I was uncertain and considering that its not that illogical to assume Prof II and III would have the same format. It takes a certain amount of skill to turn a post demonstrating you have more knowledge than the previous poster make you look like an idiot. Kudos, sir.

Pisco Sour

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

I clearly stated that I wasnt sure how repeats worked on the old system. You tell me that I am correct in my understanding only with regard to Prof II, but not Prof III and FAE, good to know.

You didnt need to be such a twat though, considering I made it very, very clear that I was uncertain and considering that its not that illogical to assume Prof II and III would have the same format. It takes a certain amount of skill to turn a post demonstrating you have more knowledge than the previous poster make you look like an idiot. Kudos, sir.

Apologies. I didnt intend to offend. Its just its rather a sensitive topic and it really does my head in when people who qualified under the old system suggest that their exams are just as hard as ours are when quite clearly that is not true.

BESman

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

I clearly stated that I wasnt sure how repeats worked on the old system. You tell me that I am correct in my understanding only with regard to Prof II, but not Prof III and FAE, good to know.

You didnt need to be such a twat though, considering I made it very, very clear that I was uncertain and considering that its not that illogical to assume Prof II and III would have the same format. It takes a certain amount of skill to turn a post demonstrating you have more knowledge than the previous poster make you look like an idiot. Kudos, sir.

In fairness to 04072511, your post was so off the mark to the facts being raised that I can see why he reacted the way he did. If you post something that is complete drivel and ring talk, you have to expect a bit of criticism, even if it was a little aggressive. What exactly was your point? That an exam that is so difficult that half the people that fail it can repeat and 70% of these will get through that it is somehow easier than Prof 2 and 3? I don't want to throw insults but you're calling another poster an idiot when it is quite clear who the idiot is here. Don't post if you're "uncertain" of the facts. It wastes people's time.

Celtise

I should not have read this thread. I am taking MA and tax in September as an external candidate and have no choice but to pass this September because my masters starts then and it's a requirement to have full CAP1 exemption.

I am exempt from Law, finance and financial accounting from college. When I was studying for FA for college I did look at some CAP1 papers due to a useless lecturer/notes and I found they were only slightly harder but then again very do-able.

wolfman88

Can anyone give me adive on how to study for CAP 1 exams? I'm a bit worried about the amount of material to be covered even though they aren't until next may. I have been attending all my lectures and I try to get an hour of study in most evenings after work and a proper study session over the weekend but I screwed up the DEBK and confidence is a bit knocked about wether I can pass these 4 exams i.e Mngmt, Finance, Financial Accounting, and Tax/Law. Anyone from non acounting background with advice? Thanks

bigmc23

wolfman88 wrote: »

Can anyone give me adive on how to study for CAP 1 exams? I'm a bit worried about the amount of material to be covered even though they aren't until next may. I have been attending all my lectures and I try to get an hour of study in most evenings after work and a proper study session over the weekend but I screwed up the DEBK and confidence is a bit knocked about wether I can pass these 4 exams i.e Mngmt, Finance, Financial Accounting, and Tax/Law. Anyone from non acounting background with advice? Thanks

i done the pda so might aswell give you my two scents.
First of all get rid of the negativity. You've got to believe that you WILL pass these exams. They're tough in places but definitely not rocket science.
in terms of studying - be prepared to put in countless hours. The first step is to understand what the material and once you've done that practising as many questions as possible.
preserverance is important aswell. Failed a few exams myself but bounced straight back and came back stronger and got through them.
fee free to pm me with any questions towards the end of Jan when ill be in this a bit more.

wolfman88

Thanks for the advice. I'm getting a study plan together and focusing on exam paper questions as we speak.

confusedalot

Hi! Just wondering does anyone have access to the CAP 1 past exam papers? Im intending on sitting the Law and Tax Exams as an external student so it would be greatly appreciated if anyone has access to these past exam papers! One min i could gain acces through the chartered accountants website and the next i couldnt so i could really do with these exam papers and solutions! Cheers :-)

Prettyblack

Wow - four year old zombie thread brought back to life. Perhaps it might be a better idea to start a new thread on the topic.