Searching for McAlisters....

Ponster

I've been doing some research for a friend, all via the Internet, who is interested in his Irish family.

His father was born in Wickow but left Ireland with his mother when he was only 3 years of age. His mum left ireland because her husband was one of the 65 people to be killed during the seige of Dublin in 1922. William was a driver/motor engineer and was very unlikely to have been involved in the rising and so his shooting was very unlikely to be political.

The first question is if and where he was buried. His parents were both dead at this time and I don't know of their whereabouts either. William's wife, Beatrice, was living with her family at 3 Dargle Terrace, Delgany, Wicklow. With no parents left I imagine that he'd be buried close to Bray somewhere. I have a death notice from the Irish Times but can't make anything out. Does anyone know of an online resource I could use?





I have also located this but don't know what to make of it. Does it reinforce the idea that William was an innocent bystander and Beatrice is looking for compo because of his death ?





William's parents were William Joseph McAlister and Rose Anne Cooke. I have their wedding cert and Rose Anne appears in the 1911 census. The cert gives me their fathers names (Joseph McAlister and Isaac Cooke) and now I'm back to approx. 1835. Can I go further than this? The LDS site throws up several Joseph McAlisters and Isaac Cookes. How can I go about verifying I have the right ones?

I'm thinking that the only way is a visit to the records and find Rose Anne's birth cert and take it from there, but online I've run out of options. What do you think?

pinkypinky

Ponster,

You've lots of questions here.
1) If you pm me the details of that death notice, I can look at another version of the Irish Times online to see if it's better (I have access through UCD and they use a different company). He's certain to have been buried but there's not likely to be a headstone.

2) Hard to know without context.

3)In genealogical purposes, verification can only be made by seeing actual records and having enough of the information match up. EG: if you've got the right name, in the right place, with a plausible age, etc. Getting back before the beginning of the 19th century is very difficult without wealthy people who leave lots of paperwork. For most ordinary Irish people, pre-famine is hard. 1835 may well be the end of the line.

4)I presume you've tried the LDS for Rose Anne's birth cert and that's where you've been stumped. Wait a little while. The LDS is undergoing a massive upgrade and they seem to be digitising details from the certs themselves (rather than just the indexes). Visiting the GRO will be costly and you can only get 5 certs a day, regardless of whether they're wrong or right. I try to go armed with as much information as possible and just order certs, to cut down on fees. Have you also looked at the various online parish records for the area to see if you can narrow down Rose Anne's birth? (www.irishgenealogy.ie/www.brsgenealogy.com), the latter is not free.

shanew

dont know if this helps with the location of the funeral ... but based on a blow-up (see attached) It looks like M.... (space) J..m.. maybe Mount Jerome ?




Shane

shanew

this is what I read as the text of the notice :

McAlister - June 28, 1922, shot in Dublin,
whilst[?] on an errand[?] of mercy. William Cooke
McAlister of Gl..n...k, Delgany, beloved husband
of Beatrice McAlister, aged 36 years. Funeral
Mount[?] Jerome[?] at 12.30 today (Monday)


Shane

johnny_doyle

there's a reference here to some research re William Cooke McAlister conducted by a WW1 research company

http://www.fourteeneighteen.co.uk/?page_id=38


he get's a mention here

http://www.mickcoplen.com/History/Moydrum/Chapter%203.htm


There's a family tree on Ancestry giving his lifespan as 1886 - 1922 and showing him in Army uniform. Can't quite make out the regiment badge (yet).

johnny_doyle

the birth cert of his son Douglas Haig McAlister, born 1918, states that his father William Cooke McAlister was a Private, Royal Flying Corps.

Ponster

pinkypinky wrote: »

Ponster,

You've lots of questions here.
1) If you pm me the details of that death notice....

2) Hard to know without context.

4)Have you also looked at the various online parish records for the area to see if you can narrow down Rose Anne's birth? (www.irishgenealogy.ie/www.brsgenealogy.com), the latter is not free.

1. Will do. Cheers !

2. True. There isn't much more info than that really. People were claiming compo for damages during the siege. Beatrice is doing the same because of the death of her husband. I thought that this may have indicated that he was employment of the state at the time. Otherwise would she be entitled to claim for something like that?

4) It wasn't free but Thanks, I found it and it takes me back another 3 generations.

shanew wrote: »

this is what I read as the text of the notice :

McAlister - June 28, 1922, shot in Dublin,
whilst[?] on an errand[?] of mercy. William Cooke
McAlister of Gl..n...k, Delgany, beloved husband
of Beatrice McAlister, aged 36 years. Funeral
Mount[?] Jerome[?] at 12.30 today (Monday)


Shane

Shane, that is quite amazing considering the poor quality of the copy I posted (best I have I'm afraid). If it isn't asking too much can you explain how you managed to make it out? A specific Photoshop method or just by guessing?

By the way, your de-scrambling of the second line has made my (4-day) weekend


johnny, Thanks for the searching. The trees you found were put up by Douglas's son. William was in the Royal Flying Corps.

shanew

nothing special to deciphering it... just used a blow-up of the image after that it's a case of looking at partial words & letters and filling in the blanks with details that could fit (and make logical & grammatical sense ) a bit like a cross word.

I'm fairly certain of most of the text - let me know If you want me to explain my reasoning for any specific sections



Shane

smcalister

Hello All,

Ponster put me onto this site after he'd already started posting on my behalf.

Thank you all for your diligent work and some quite outstanding 'sleuthery' on my family.

Now that we have more info to go on, this changes things somewhat. We had assumed one thing where, in effect, we hadn't deciphered the initial info, so things change ...

PinkyPinky, if you could take a look at the Irish Times notice that would be great. If you could possible sneak a screengrab at the same time, would that be feasible?

ShaneW, you've cracked the nut ... with that info we're of and running again. Many thanks.

Johnny_Doyle, well you certainly found some stuff there. I used the 1914-1918 website to find some WW1 info on William Cooke McAlister.

Looking forward to any future info!

All the best

shanew

I presume you have his death cert already... index references below if not. It might give a place of death which could provide clues for a further search.

Name: William C Mcalister
Registration District: Dublin South
Event Type: Death
Quarter and Year: Jul - Sep 1922
Age (at Death): 36 (Estimated Birth Year: 1886)
Volume Number: 2 / Page Number: 341

If he was buried in Mt. Jerome it might be worth contacting them to do a search for you (for a fee)... see : http://www.mountjerome.ie/?content=genealogy


Shane

pinkypinky

smcalister wrote: »

PinkyPinky, if you could take a look at the Irish Times notice that would be great. If you could possible sneak a screengrab at the same time, would that be feasible?

I need the date please.
I tried searching by name and can't find it in 1922.

smcalister

ShaneW,

Technically, he died in Meath hospital on June 28th 1922 after being shot in Dublin. Yes, we have his death cert. The Mount Jerome website allows for searching, so long as you go there in person ... his place of death (vis a vis being shot in the street) is a complete mystery; where exactly on the street.

PinkyPinky,

I think that the announcement in the IT appears a matter of a few days after June 28th 1922. When I had access (paid) to the IT site, I put in his name and the date of between June 1 and Aug 31 1922 and it came up without a problem. Let me know how you get on.

Stuart

Ponster

pinkypinky wrote: »

I need the date please.
I tried searching by name and can't find it in 1922.

William Cooke McAlister, June 28 (I think)

pinkypinky

ProQuest found it eventually.

It's just as grubby as the IT above, worse even.

shanew

I just found the details in the Irish Independent dated 1st July 1922 (Sat). Details included are much the same as the Irish Times one, although the left edge is cropped a little bit :

[McAlis]ter (Delgany) June 28, 1922 (shot in
[Du]blin while on an errand of mercy), William
[..]ke McAlister, of Glenbrook, Delgany, the beloved
[hus]band of Beatrice McAlister; aged 36 years.
[funer]al Mount Jerome, 12:30 Monday

letters in [] are off the edge of the page and assumed


Shane

smcalister

Shane,

Well that's great. Is there any way I can get a screen grab of that image?

Stuart

Ponster

Seeing as you're all so good at this....

This is the marriage cert of William McAlister, from 1911.

Can anyone make out what William's father's profession is ?

shanew

car [something] proprieter ?

I am getting a scan of the Indo article to pm to you


Shane

smcalister

Thank you Shane!

We know that he was a 'motor engineer' ... we'll figure it out!

Stuart

Ponster

smcalister wrote: »

Thank you Shane!

We know that he was a 'motor engineer' ... we'll figure it out!

Stuart

This is William's dad we're talking about here. I don't know if there were 'motor engineers' about back then ?

shanew

there are motor engineers listed on the 1911 census ...so there were some around at that time.

I had a looks a few Thom's directories hoping thatthere might be some mention of William, but nothing promising. These are the relevent details :

1914

Mrs. McAlister, 4. Belmont Terrace, Terenure Rd, upper

Jas. O'Reilly, 32 Oakland Terrace, Terenure

1904

just one Wm. McAlister in the index, 107 Beechwood ave. lwr, Ranelagh (no uccupation listed)

4 Belmont Terrace, Terenure Rd, upper
[vacant]

Oakland Terrace - not listed


smcalister - I've pm'd you the link to that scan


Shane

shanew

got the occupation after staring a it for a while .....

car & cab
proprietor (as in horse car & cab... probably)

same as some of my ancestors!


Shane

Ponster

shane...next time you're in Paris you won't have to put your hand in your pocket


Firstly, car & cab proprietor is perfect. His son was a coachman and it fits together.


Also you found a McAlister in "4 Belmont Terrace, Terenure Rd, upper". If you check the cert again you'll see that it's the same address that William Cooke McAlister (son of car & cab McAlister) gives as his address at the time of his marriage !

You also have a Mcalister in "Oakland Terrace - not listed" in 1904. This is interesting as Beatrice Gray gives her address in 1911 as "32 Oakland Terrace". Was she possible living in a McAlister residence at the time of marriage?

shanew

Ponster wrote: »

Also you found a McAlister in "4 Belmont Terrace, Terenure Rd, upper". If you check the cert again you'll see that it's the same address that William Cooke McAlister (son of car & cab McAlister) gives as his address at the time of his marriage !

You also have a Mcalister in "Oakland Terrace - not listed" in 1904. This is interesting as Beatrice Gray gives her address in 1911 as "32 Oakland Terrace". Was she possible living in a McAlister residence at the time of marriage?

sorry - I might not have explained that very well ...

I checked the addresses for the bride & groom listed on the marriage cert to see what was listed in 1914 and 1904 to see if that gave any clues. The 1914 directory listing for 4 Belmont Terrace shows what I presume to be William snr's widow at the address that William jnr lists at the time of marriage.

I didn't see a connection to the 1914 occupant of 32 Oakland Tce, but thought I'd post it in case the name meant anything to you.

Oakland tce is not listed in the 1904 directory, as I presume it was not yet built at the time. In the same year number 4 Belmont Terrace is not occupied.

The other Wm. McAlister I mentioned in Ranelagh is not directly connected as far I can tell and is shown on the same road in 1911. (I saw the entries for William in Westmeath, and Beatrice, Christopher etc in Bray).


Shane

shanew

in case you are wondering about the location of Belmont Terrace, it is seems to be a section of houses on Terenure Road upper. In many cases these types of terraces had separate numbers to the roads they were on, but they were gradually included into the official street numbers.

It looks like number 5 Belmont Terrace became number 7 Terenure Rd upper and that's why I believe the McAlister household (William jnr's mother and sister ?) are at that address on the census


Shane

Ponster

With everyone's help I was able to find the people I was looking for and then more.

I now have the marriage + birth cert of Rose Anne Cooke and am happy with the info from her line.

She married a William Joseph McAlister. I can see his death cert on LDS dated 1909 where it mentions approx: date of birth to be 1860. According to his marriage cery he was born in 1858.

Unfortunately there is no mention of him in the LDS site not on BRS site (where I found Rose Anne). Does this suggest that he possible wasn't born in Ireland or that LDS just don't have all the records out there?

shanew

Full Civil registration only started in 1864, so William's birth will not be in the civil index. The IFHF only covers certain areas of Ireland (e.g. excludes parts of Dublin) so may not cover the right parish for his birth.

further parish records for Dublin are available (free) on http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/ , and more are due to be added soon.

Do you have William on a census ? if not the 1901 details are due to be added to the NAI website on 3rd June (will give his county of birth)


Shane

shanew

The cert is a little unclear in that scan, but I think the address for the bride and groom could be 14 Rostrevor Terrace. Rostrevor terrace is off Orwell road and details are shown for the address in Thom's for the years 1880 and 1884.

14 Rostrevor-terrace, Rathgar
(Civil Parish of Rafhfarnham)
Colonel Sydney Darling, A. A. G. recruiting,
office, Linen Hall Barracks

The earlier 1880 listing has his rank as Lieut.-Col.


Shane

smcalister

It's been a while since I've touched base here but things are moving on a pace.

A 200-page handwritten document, written by one of William's sons in the 1980's, has been uncovered in the house of a distant relative.

It clearly states that William was in Dublin on June 28th, going to the aid of one of his sisters who was living in a building directly in front of the Four Courts, on the other side of the Liffey.

His sister and her family were trapped inside the building due to the sniping from the Four Courts and the fighting in the neighbouring areas. William had gone to Dublin to get them out as his sister was disabled but the only entrance was at the front of the building - in direct line of sight of the Four Courts. It was as he reached the front door that he was hit by a sniper's bullet.

We have an address for where this might have been, but due to; a) the rebuilding of the area and b) the lack of available maps from (circa) 1920, it is all still up in the air.

A possible address we have for the incident is on Hamilton Street, (Merchants Quay), Dublin.

The census has it as his brother-in-law's parents address, but Hamilton Street no longer exists anywhere in the Merchants Quay area. On the census, 'Merchants Quay' is in brackets as it only denominates the area.

There is another Hamilton Street but as it's way out, we can exclude that from our search.

I have trawled the net but have not found anything close to a very detailed map of Dublin from 1920 ... clearly identifying a Hamilton Street in the Merchants Quay area.

If anyone knows where (online) I might be able to find the info, then please speak up as we're very close to nailing the entire story.

Stuart

shanew

There's a Hamilton St. listed in Thom's 1914 as :

Hamilton St
off Donore Avenue - Merchant's quay Ward

The placename in brackets on the census (Marchant's Quay) is the DED or Electoral district, which is equivalent to the Ward, and this covered quite a large area to the south of Merchant's Quay itself.

update : I compared the surnames listed in Thom's 1914 against for Hamilton Street, Donore Ave against those on Hamilton St, Merchant Quay DED on the 1911 census - and they are definitely the same street

here's the street on a c1890 OSI map : http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,714366,733016,7 (press 8, or click on the historic 25" option to show the correct map)


Shane

smcalister

Shane,

Great stuff. Thanks.

So, it doesn't look like the house we are looking for was anywhere near the Four Courts then ... was my grandfather shot in a residential part of town? Does this 200-page document miss the truth? Admittedly, it was written by one of his sons who, at the time of writing, would have been around 70 years old.

I guess the search goes on for the truth ... (it's out there somewhere!)

Stuart