Kings Inns Dip Versus Evening Law Degree

jimmylawman

For a mature student interested in the law and particularly the bar it appears there are two main entry routes:

- Take the KI Dip, 2 years and elgible to sit the BL
- Take an evening law degree and elgible to sit the BL

Considering pros and cons of both it would appear:

KI Dip
- Compressed & compact (done in 2 years)
- Good entry rate into BL after
- Not sure how useful on its own?
- Exclusively barristers (maybe good and bad thing?)

Evening Degrees
- Wider application outside practice
- Potential to develop wider legal network
- Longer course of study
- Greater actual time committment (similar hours per week but more years)?

In terms of the hours KI has more nights per week but it appears to finish up a bit earlier too. Some the colleges run until 10pm or after whereas KI is done by 8 most nights. Seems the hours put in may be about the same overall.

Costs probably level out over time ; the dip is dearer than some degrees but comes to about the same in the two years as others may sum to over three.

Any views / comments / feedback? Any current or past students out there?

Tom Young

This has been discussed to death here. Use the search function.

jimmylawman

Tom Young wrote: »

This has been discussed to death here. Use the search function.

I must respectfully disagree. There have been numerous threads on the generalities of entering the law, good times versus bad, half full and half empty outlooks, threads detailing entrance reqts to blackhall, to kings inns etc etc etc.. Indeed I have provided advice on some of these threads myself.

What I have not seen is a straight compare and contrast of an evening law degree option versus the kings inns dip. The facts are known ; What is of interest are opinions , shared experiences and educated views on same.

Mary Hairy

The Law Degree is the obvious way to go. It opens more doors. e.g. the American Bars wnat a law degree. The Kings Inns are only interested in money. The only reason they started a diploma in the first place was because there were crammer schools around dublin coaching people for the entrance exams. They set up a diploma and stopped the entrance exams, confining entry to law graduates and their own diplomates.

FreudianSlippers

Mary Hairy wrote: »

They set up a diploma and stopped the entrance exams, confining entry to law graduates and their own diplomates.

They did not stop the entrance exams at all.

jimmylawman

If one wanted keep open possibility of lecturing / academia, would a BL (with Dip) be considered inferior to a BL (with LLB)? Or does it matter once qualified.

Were there previously entrance exams which anyone could attempt?
(like the FE1s)?

Mary Hairy

OisinT wrote: »

They did not stop the entrance exams at all.

I am not talking about the current entrance exam. I am talking about the one that they used to run in the 1970's. There was no entrance exam in the Kings Inns for many years before 2002.

NoQuarter

If your particular interest is in the KI then you should do the diploma as once finished your ready to start your profession.

On the other hand, finish your law degree and all your ready to do is take the KI degree or take another road of exams/study.

eagle_&_bear

jimmylawman wrote: »

If one wanted keep open possibility of lecturing / academia, would a BL (with Dip) be considered inferior to a BL (with LLB)? Or does it matter once qualified.

Were there previously entrance exams which anyone could attempt?
(like the FE1s)?

Kinda of have to agree with 'Tom Young' on this but to assist in some form...

In theory if you went down the lecturing route (if any positions were to ever arise again), then there might be an issue with not having a degree (there shouldnt be an issue) but when the question arises what is your primary degree- and you may not have one, the Diploma probably would, unfairly so, be considered lower than the degree.

And I'm leaving the who issue of what institution teaches the diploma to 1 side.

Certainly from an academic point of view, it would pose a bit of a difficulty if you wanted to move to higher degrees. Whilst the BL is a professional degree and it is likened on a masters degree /level 9 it is not *technically* a masters so you might find difficulty getting into any LLM places.

I suppose to satisfy your own curiosity, why not ring the admission department of any of the big colleges and sound out the idea of applying to do a masters with a diploma and bl and see.

its really the only way you'll get somewhat of an answer.

I think I've done to death the pros and cons of full v part time and materials on the colleges so do look at the search option,

Manach

For my, so-far limited, experience of an evening degrees - there is the logistic difficultly of balancing work/study. However it does seem to be fairly academicly leaning, which suits me as I'd aim to use the legal knowledge an adjunct to my current job.

eagle_&_bear

Manach wrote: »

For my, so-far limited, experience of an evening degrees - there is the logistic difficultly of balancing work/study. However it does seem to be fairly academicly leaning, which suits me as I'd aim to use the legal knowledge an adjunct to my current job.

There's absolutely no doubt, taking on the KI diploma whilst working is a big committment. 5 nights a week is a serious amount of time but well done and I hope you like the course

Take care of our surroundings whilst you're there!

Curunina

Hey - I know I sent on some of my own views of the Dip by PM (after you clearly had done a search and read through old threads... *ahem*!), but on the issue of doing a Degree vs the Dip, I have to say if I had my time again, I would probably go for the degree.

Given the financial issues involved in becoming a barrister, and surviving the first 3-5 years, I think it's just a safer option to get the qualification that has the broadest application in case you decide you would like to follow a different law-related career path. The Diploma is essentially only useful for getting onto the BL - and (when I did it anyway) was not even HETAC recognised, so you couldn't even get a tax rebate on your fees (not a determining factor, but still!).

You also don't get any subject choices at all - and while I know you need to do your core subjects to sit the Entrance Exams, it would've been nice (and useful) to get to study Medical Law/Intellectual Property etc.
Good luck with the decision!

jpwicklow

Jimmylawman - I did a primary degree in politics then did the DIT Postgrad Diploma in law and after working with a barrister on a very high profile case, decided that King's Inns was for me and ended up on the Diploma. From what i can gather noone else seems to be currently on the diploma so i'll give you an insiders insight.

First, if i may just address some of the other posters comments i'll give you my personal opinion after that. eagle & bear in my opinion speaks a lot of truth about it being held to be lower than a degree becuase technically its a postgrad and thus as properly stated the new york bar wouldnt accept it and i'm not particularly sure if other institutions would for gaining access to a masters which you will definitely need if your ever going to consider lecturering and probably a first class honours at that. he also points out that it is five nights a week. This is no longer the case. First year on the diploma now have four nights a week; three of lectures and 1 of tutorials and then saturday mornings for tutorials on every second week. The diploma has in the last year undergone a massive overhaul and i'm not particularly sure how relavent some peoples opinion may well be on the matter. certainly if they are not currently on diploma 2 their opinion will be outdated with respect to course content, structure, teaching staff. however, their opinion on matters such as the inns itself and general points are still worth listening to because trust me any study at night is not easy.

The current diploma course is time consuming and requires a huge amount of dedication. You will be expected to have read the material and not only know it but be able to talk about it and apply it. Most tutorials these days consist of problem questions, moots and debates. I am told that the current head of diploma is responsible for this shift towards teaching more advocacy skills. This leads me to believe that they are specifically aiming to teach you the skills necessary to be a barrister and not necessarily any other lawyer.

The course material is now very very detailed. Like i said i studied on DIT's postgrad diploma and i have found their exams to be much easier. the criminal law lecturer expects that you know the course manual you are given inside out and often you will find in his exam questions that the fcats disclose more than one topic. For example the last problem question i did invloved the theft and fraud offences, criminal damage, the defence of necessity, the inchoate offences (attempt) and finally then there was the possibilty of conspiracy. I would say easy to pass hard to do well in. This is reflected in the results! hardly anyone gets a first class honour!

The inns generally get a hard time! But i feel that this year has been fantastic. the society offers so much more than a night time degree could offer such as the social events: dining, the xmas ball (free drink!!!), sports day, mooting, debating, and just a general feeling of comradery! Long gone are the days of all the snobby egits ruling the place, honestly all the current classes get on great i believe its prob down to the pub and the current auditor of the LSDSI shes been great with the social scene. All people, all ages and all walks of life and we all get on like a house on fire.

This all said it is very tough and may not be suited to what it is you want to do! If its a barrister you want to be dont waste time doing a three or four year degree try get into the inns and do it straight away. P.s. most of the mature students in the class have either got primary degrees or have relevant experience so i would check with the inns that you can get in! the numbers are up at the moment compared with last year anyway. My class is full to the brim think there are 90 in our class so it may be competitive. best thing you can do is ring them. they are contrary to some peoples opinions on the whole very helpful.

any other questions just ask. i'm aware that ive started to rant now and prob not of any help to you with half the stuff:D

Curunina

Hey JP - good to hear that the Inns are updating. Out of interest what kind of attendance do they require on the Dip now? Have you heard about them enforcing attendance requirements on the Dip at all? Just wanted to know if they are doing the same thing with it that they do on the BL - getting you to beep in to class with your ID card/getting the lecturer to call roll and do it? Or is it still sign in?
Ta - and glad to hear you are enjoying the Inns - I will definitely second the part about the Christmas party being great craic, I'm glad that Camilla hasn't shut it down, I know that there was talk of it.

jpwicklow

enforcement isnt that strict to tell you the truth! they sent letters about halfway through the year and called people in for meetings who werent attending but i dont think they actually did anything! we get a lot of emails informing us it is compulsory but we dont have to do as you guys had to on the degree. tutorials you sign and then they call back the roll to you to check it! Ive missed a good bit but havent been reprimanded about it. In general attendance seems to have been good this year the lowest ive ever seen in a class was prob about 30 thtough i believe there were a few friday classes that we had to have due to bank hols that only had about 15 in them because essays were due ha ha the usually lark!

In reality i dont think one can label it as part-time but rather its full time squeezed into part-time i'd say! I'm not liking this lack of exam hints either ha ha!

I know this isnt the place but can i just ask you whether you like it down at the law library? i dont care about the pay i'm poor already and i'll be poor for a while by the looks of things but i imagine it to be a really rewarding career from what little insight that ive had from the third or fourth bench back in the courtroom!

Curunina

Thanks for the response JP - that's fair enough that they are not sitting on ye over attendance, and giving some allowance for the fact that people have jobs to worry about, I'm glad to hear it!

Re life in the Library - I love it. I've been based on a Circuit for the last two years, and did my first year's devilling in Dublin, and I have enjoyed (almost) every minute of all of it. But a lot of the reason for that is that I had 2 years of really good Masters - particularly my Dublin Master, who is still a good friend (and who I still ring all the time for work help).

Don't think people are exaggerating about the money issue though - it is just as bad as people say, but there is enough room time-wise to supplement it with sideline/part time work.

The work is interesting, challenging, and varied. You have a massive degree of autonomy and there are always opportunities to learn, and on good days you feel like you really helped someone. You need to have a fairly steely nerve, and a willingness to run with something even where you think you are slightly out of your depth, or on a loser - and to enjoy it you need to get a kick out of that adrenaline.

A lot of people bitch about the traditional stuff - the wig/gown, the bowing, the stupid rules about not being allowed to take off your suit jacket even in the Tea Rooms, or to carry a handbag while gowned... but having worked in the mainstream "corporate" world, I know that I would rather deal with all of that than business jargon designed to make common sense sound like science, and "core competencies" - but that is very much a personal thing?

jimmylawman

Thanks all for the replies. Sounds like the Dip is perhaps tougher than in past but still doable. I do imagine there is great collegiality there amongst class.

Slightly off topic but just on point made by JP, that in order to lecture one would require a primary degree in the subject and probably a first. I agree one might expect that to be the case.

It's funny though as it happens I do have a first and a masters in my primary degree area (nothing to do with law ) .. I have done a few lecturing gigs. TBH I got them more through a few contacts I had in colleges than anything to do with my grades - noone even asked about my qualifications in any detail. I even covered a subject I have no degree in - although do have industry experience.

Now granted they were more one off, guest lecturer type gigs. Maybe to get tenure or a full time job it would be a more onerous process. But I do think a lot of lecturers just happened to be in right place at right time to get their gigs.

Sorry if slightly off topic!

jimmylawman

Curunina wrote: »

A lot of people bitch about the traditional stuff - the wig/gown, the bowing, the stupid rules about not being allowed to take off your suit jacket even in the Tea Rooms, but having worked in the mainstream "corporate" world, I know that I would rather deal with all of that than business jargon designed to make common sense sound like science, and "core competencies" -

Seconded. I think I'd actually like the Olde Worlde stuff!

jpwicklow

jimmylawman:

ive noticed a few things and thought i'd update you.

1.Griffith were recently looking for lecturers in law and we got forwarded the advertisment. It stated that a first in a masters in law was essential but that they could be flexible if experience was shown or something to that effect if my memory serves me well.

2. Lecturers i had in DIT some had a masters in law others hadnt. I dont know if you can take anything from that but its just an observation. A further observation is that they were all barristers and all had the BL.

Personally i think you should get the BL whichever way you go! honestly when your walking by their classrooms and seeing them work in the library, you do get jealous becuase it always sounds so interesting and it is a respected qualification.

I intend to hopefully see how an application to do an mphil/phd flies after ive obtained the BL which should keep me going if i have no work for the first four years.

Curunina:

Thanks for taking the time to write such a good response. I love all the traditions and i dont think they should change them!

jimmylawman

Addendum. Have applied for the KI Diploma 10/11 year.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my many questions over the past months.

Might see some of ye down there in the real come Autumn!

FreudianSlippers

jpwicklow wrote: »

I intend to hopefully see how an application to do an mphil/phd flies after ive obtained the BL which should keep me going if i have no work for the first four years.

You know I was actually thinking of doing the same thing. Are you looking at Trinity?

jpwicklow

yeah gonna try get into trinners for it! Its always something ive wanted to do and ive got my eyes set on a topic since i started studying law so i thought it would be the perfect time for me to get stuck into it! It related to what a want to practice in and what my (fingers crossed) master practices in!

FreudianSlippers

Me too, I'm very interested in writing on intellectual property.

EimearSF

Hi - I am hoping to start the KI Diploma course this year so I thought I would join in the discussion.

I just wanted to ask any former Diploma students how important the induction week might be? I am currently living abroad and as my employment contract doesn't finish until the very end of September, I will very likely have to miss the induction week.

Also, from a practical point of view, is there a secure place to lock bikes? I figure cycling will be the easiest way to get there if working on the other side of the city, but I have a good bike and don't want it to get stolen!

Thanks.

FreudianSlippers

Yeah, most people lock their bicycles on a rack outside the Registry of Deeds.

I didn't do the diploma so sorry I cannot be of more help

consultech

EimearSF wrote: »

Hi - I am hoping to start the KI Diploma course this year so I thought I would join in the discussion.

I just wanted to ask any former Diploma students how important the induction week might be? I am currently living abroad and as my employment contract doesn't finish until the very end of September, I will very likely have to miss the induction week.

Also, from a practical point of view, is there a secure place to lock bikes? I figure cycling will be the easiest way to get there if working on the other side of the city, but I have a good bike and don't want it to get stolen!

Thanks.

I can't answer your questions, but see you in September!

Hippo

consultech wrote: »

I can't answer your questions, but see you in September!

Ditto!

Treehouse72

What are the criteria for being accepted for the Diploma (other than having a primary degree)? Do they consider your employment background and that kind of stuff?

Hippo

Treehouse72 wrote: »

What are the criteria for being accepted for the Diploma (other than having a primary degree)? Do they consider your employment background and that kind of stuff?

Just the degree.

jimmylawman

Hippo wrote: »

Ditto!

Ditto too !!

Curunina

It's probably a bit late now, but when I did the Diploma, the Induction week was just about getting you your email account, your internet passwords, and login details for the online legal databases. They did a library tutorial thing, but realistically if you have a degree you can probably figure out how to use the library effectively!
In short - there was nothing that caused more than a little inconvenience that could be easily sorted out by sitting next to someone nice on the first day of the following week, and a quick trip to the office (although, be warned the guardians of the office are not very friendly to visitors!!).
Good luck with it all!

keithogixer

I'm in my 4th year of my degree & hope to sit the entrance exam next year, I'm completely happy i put in the extra time & did the extra couple of years to do the degree. For starters there are extra subjects & I think you finish a more rounded legal headed person. Able to get a more over all perspective of a problem scenario.

Keitho.

jpwicklow

Keith are you saying you did a degree and then did a law degree? Or are you saying you just did a law degree?

According to the Inns the figures apparently show that diploma students do better in the entrance exam and better on the degree in general, especially since the new course was inaugurated, which teaches the diploma students adovacy skills.

In the inns there will always be the split between those who did a degree and those who did the diploma. Normally due to the university students thinking that becuase they have a law degree, they are somewhat better and to a lesser extent because the auditor usually comes from the Diploma graduates.


You'll get a chance to meet us all next year anyway because we'll hopefully be your classmates. Best of luck with your finals and with the entrance exam.

FreudianSlippers

jpwicklow wrote: »

Keith are you saying you did a degree and then did a law degree? Or are you saying you just did a law degree?

According to the Inns the figures apparently show that diploma students do better in the entrance exam and better on the degree in general, especially since the new course was inaugurated, which teaches the diploma students adovacy skills.

In the inns there will always be the split between those who did a degree and those who did the diploma. Normally due to the university students thinking that becuase they have a law degree, they are somewhat better and to a lesser extent because the auditor usually comes from the Diploma graduates.


You'll get a chance to meet us all next year anyway because we'll hopefully be your classmates. Best of luck with your finals and with the entrance exam.

In my year the top students were about a 50/50 mix of diploma and non-diploma students. I think the divide goes away socially too if you want it to. Obviously some "cliques" are formed, but most people branch out.