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If the government could start again

  • 12-05-2010 10:14am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭ funnyname


    what projects would you tell them to undertake/avoid for road and rail in Ireland?


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 997 ✭✭✭ Colm R


    Start again from when. I'm going back maybe as far as 2000:

    Dublin and around:

    Metro North
    Dart Underground
    Green Line Luas
    Red Line Luas with 'cut and cover from Heuston to Connolly.
    Electrify and Dartify the Maynooth line.
    Proper QBC's. Not token genstures.


    M50 widening
    M3 to be scapped
    M2 to be changed to M3 and contune from Ashbourne towards Navan.
    N2 to begin at current N33 and continue on from Ardee to Derry.
    M1 to be widened (not sure how far up)
    M7 to be widened as far as M9
    Free flow M50 junctions at N11, N7, N4, N3 (now the N2) and the M1.


    Cork:

    Middleton Rail
    Stations at Blarney and Kilbarry.
    Single high frequencey light rail from CIT to Mahon.
    Proper QBC's. Not token genstures.
    Possible enhancement of the island as transport hub/pedestrian area with no traffic.
    M20 north to Limerick
    Dunkettle free flow.
    Get rid of all roundabouts on the South Ring.
    Improved connection from Tunnel to the M20. I don't think the M20 connecting directly to the N22 is ncessary.
    Improve road from Middleton to Youghal and onwards to Waterford.
    Improve N71 west of Bandon


    Limerick

    M20
    Shannon Tunnel
    M7
    M18 to shannon and Galway
    Proper QBC's. Not token genstures.
    Adare and the rest of the N21 to Tralee


    I can't really comment on other areas as I not fammilliar with them.

    Nationally

    - All the interurbans from Dublin.
    - Atlantic Road corridor. Not neccessary all motorway.
    - Rail line improvement from Dublin with 4 tracking on Cork and Belffast lines out of Dublin and between Mallow and Cork
    - possible electrification of the intercity network.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 Tech3


    If growth returned to normal and enough capital was found I would prioritize Metro North and the Interconnector for rail.

    For road infrastructure obviously getting all the PPP's done in the next 5 years would be ideal. The Galway bypass needs to be fastracked. Focus then should be put on the rest of the national primary and secondary route network. Personally I think the likes of the N17 from Tuam-Ballindine should be looked at immediately. 13,000 daily travel this poor stretch of road. It's also very dangerous having this section eventually sandwich'd in between two excellent road schemes. (M17 Gort-Tuam & N17 Claremorris/Knock bypass)


  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭ fresca


    tech2 wrote: »
    If growth returned to normal and enough capital was found I would prioritize Metro North and the Interconnector for rail.

    For road infrastructure obviously getting all the PPP's done in the next 5 years would be ideal. The Galway bypass needs to be fastracked. Focus then should be put on the rest of the national primary and secondary route network. Personally I think the likes of the N17 from Tuam-Ballindine should be looked at immediately. 13,000 daily travel this poor stretch of road. It's also very dangerous having this section eventually sandwich'd in between two excellent road schemes. (M17 Gort-Tuam & N17 Claremorris/Knock bypass)

    I guess that we'll all naturally tend to highlight routes that we are familiar with... i'll throw in my old soap boxes... n21 + n22.
    however, m17/18, m20, galway ring road etc, should all take priority.

    Even by a city population rationale, Cork to Galway (2nd & 3rd largest cities) should have priority...
    http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popofeachprovcountycity2006.htm


  • Registered Users Posts: 784 ✭✭✭ zootroid


    Metro North
    Dart Interconnector
    Green Luas line going in as far as O'Connell street to connect with the red line, even if that means going underground
    Red Luas line to be built with the extension to the Point from the start, rather than adding an extension a few years later
    Part electrification of the inter city lines. Rail transport in Ireland is simply too slow and expensive
    More importantly, I would change the board of CIE, they seem to be completely incompetent

    All the major inter-urbans would go ahead, along with the Atlantic corridor
    The M7 would be 3 lanes as far as the M7/M9 split
    The Waterford by-pass wouldn't be tolled, the M9 would instead however
    Dublin Port Tunnel to be able to accommodate large trucks (5 metres high)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,964 ✭✭✭ Chris_5339762


    MN and interconnector. Also Luas Linkup from day 1.

    Scrap the M8, take the M9 closer to Kilkenny, avoid the nearby mountains and send an M8 past Clonmel to Cahir, then down to Cork. Send an M9 spur down to Waterford.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,852 ✭✭✭ SeanW


    If it were the year 2000 again, I would scrap the M7/M8 as currently implemented and replace it with a pair of Mways that run either from - N7 to Limerick as currently implemented but with an M8 running due North out of Cork and meeting the M7 around Nenagh, or, M8 as currently implemented, serving Limerick via an M7 spur from Urlingford. N7 Nass Dual Carriageway to be overhauled and turned into an M.

    Luas to be linked-up from Day 1.

    Other capital spending to be deferred from boom time to the inevitable recession, with a multi-billion euro fund ringfenced from the good times to spend on infrastructure now when labour and land is cheaper.

    Other than that I would do the following as of today.
    DART Interconnector as Priority 1
    Metro North next.
    N7 Newlands Cross Grade Separation
    M20 Cork Limerick.
    N4 Mullingar-Longford Dual Carriageway.
    Consider electric HSR Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork.
    Reclassifiy N33 as N2 and detrunk the lower M/N2 section (I suppose that would mean having a Motorway section of regional road, lol)


  • Registered Users Posts: 428 ✭✭ big mce


    Colm R wrote: »
    Start again from when. I'm going back maybe as far as 2000:

    Dublin and around:

    Metro North
    Dart Underground
    Green Line Luas
    Red Line Luas with 'cut and cover from Heuston to Connolly.
    Electrify and Dartify the Maynooth line.
    Proper QBC's. Not token genstures.


    M50 widening
    M3 to be scapped
    M2 to be changed to M3 and contune from Ashbourne towards Navan.
    Clearly some-one who doesn't commute from Cavan to Dublin daily, roll on the M3 :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 997 ✭✭✭ Colm R


    big mce wrote: »
    Clearly some-one who doesn't commute from Cavan to Dublin daily, roll on the M3 :eek:

    I think you have picked me up wrong here. I'm not speaking from point of view of those who don't want a motorway near Tara. I'm speaking from just having a more rationalised road network.

    I don't think there is a need for N2 and M1 to be nearly parallel between Dublin and Ardee. I would prefer to start the N2 from where the N33 begins as a branch of the M1. Obviously the M1 within the Fingal area would need to be three laned to handle this.


    Then using the current M2 motorway to Ashbourne, rename it the M3, and extend across near Kenstown and onto Navan. Navan, Kells, and Cavan gets its M3. Dunshauglin, gets a downgraded R road with far less traffic in to Dublin.

    The Finglas road is far more capable of handling traffic than the Navan road within Dublin. Everyone is happy, and as an added bonus, so are the people who don't want a motorway near Tara.

    Anyway, it does not matter anymore with the M3 nearly done. However I would still like to see the N2 start from the M1.

    Others here have spoken about rationalising the roads going south from Dublin, with either the Cork road starting closed to Waterford or to Limerick. They have a point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 428 ✭✭ big mce


    Sorry , I misunderstood you. I thought you meant cancel the M3 altogether. After many years of waiting for it (really couldn't understand the Tara issue as its further away than the existing road) I'm really looking forward to saving 2-3 hrs at minimum a week not sitting in the car.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,229 ✭✭✭ Deedsie


    I wouldnt build the M7 Nenagh to Limerick road over a blasted bog.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,082 ✭✭✭ veryangryman


    I would have saved a tonne of cash by just widening existing roads to Dual Carriageway (where possible) rather than making them reduncant with new Motorways alongside them

    The amount of extra cash now needed to maintain the extra XXXKM of road we have is causing huge burden for the taxpayer


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,165 hobochris


    Forget the Luas and Metro and instead build an underground network like in London.


  • Registered Users Posts: 784 ✭✭✭ zootroid


    hobochris wrote: »
    Forget the Luas and Metro and instead build an underground network like in London.

    Unfortunately due to cost, it would never happen.

    If I could pick any city's transport system, and replicate in Dublin, it would be Melbourne's. I'll admit that I'm not that well travelled, but I've yet to see better. Trams all over the city, and a train system that goes underground in the city centre


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,852 ✭✭✭ SeanW


    I would have saved a tonne of cash by just widening existing roads to Dual Carriageway (where possible) rather than making them reduncant with new Motorways alongside them

    The amount of extra cash now needed to maintain the extra XXXKM of road we have is causing huge burden for the taxpayer
    This would have been a mistake
    1. Long distance traffic would have been slower and less safe as many of the N roads had significant development and one off houses facing onto them.
    2. Where there are PPP/toll schemes, the toll operator is presently doing the maintenance, paid for out of the tolls. This will continue until the Mway is returned to the State in 30 years or so.
    3. When an N road is bypassed by either another N, or a Motorway, the original N road is "detrunked" and reclassified to a Regional (Rxxx) road, and its share of the maintenance budget is reduced accordingly. Often they are degraded as well, i.e. hard shoulders removed, traffic calming measures implemented and so on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,082 ✭✭✭ veryangryman


    SeanW wrote: »
    This would have been a mistake
    1. Long distance traffic would have been slower and less safe as many of the N roads had significant development and one off houses facing onto them.
    2. Where there are PPP/toll schemes, the toll operator is presently doing the maintenance, paid for out of the tolls. This will continue until the Mway is returned to the State in 30 years or so.
    3. When an N road is bypassed by either another N, or a Motorway, the original N road is "detrunked" and reclassified to a Regional (Rxxx) road, and its share of the maintenance budget is reduced accordingly. Often they are degraded as well, i.e. hard shoulders removed, traffic calming measures implemented and so on.


    1. I did of course say to dual them "where possible". That means that in cases of inapt development, of course build a seperate stretch which bypasses this

    2. Id sooner not have toll roads anywhere. Say what you like, they still end up costing the country more

    3. You are still stuck with a spare high quality road that very few people use which would easily have been a candidate for 2+2 at worst


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    I'm going to go back to 1997, seeing as thats when "the government" started as such:

    1: Roads
    * Get the MIU network as envisioned in the strategic road plan of the era implemented post-haste. 2001 delivery date at worst. This would have given mostly DC on what is currently the MIU motorway network
    * Provide an equivalent quality road to the MIUs (WS2/reduced DC/motorway as applicable) to the north-west
    * Introduce 2+2 as a replacement for WS2 much earlier. This would have prevented the spectre of costly refits of routes such as the Charlestown and Bundoran/Ballyshannon BP
    * Seek vexatious litigant orders against repeat anti-road protesters who lose cases. Seek full costs including those for increased CPO prices from those who lose vexatious anti-road cases.

    Broadband:
    * Prevent state bodies and semi-state agencies from laying their own fibre networks without co-ordination - instead of the ESB, RTE, Telecom (as was) having their own networks, the NRA and Irish Rail using their routes for other peoples trunking, and so on. Have a single state agency to ensure that fibre is laid and made openly accessible
    * Sell only the retail (both meanings - stores and accounts) and mobile divisions of Telecom, retain the physical network.

    DTT:
    * Issue the DTT operations licence to RTE in 1998 rather than the powerpoint-masters with no funding who got it.

    Rail:
    * Deliver the Navan line as promised on time
    * Force Irish Rail (potentially by seperating track and operations) to maintain rail links to all ports, and proactively seek freight traffic. This would include Foynes, New Ross and not having removed access to the Tivoli container terminal, etc.

    Planning:
    * Force councils to concentrate planning in towns towards proposed rail infrastructure, to prevent Oranmore and Dunshauglin style situations


  • Registered Users Posts: 428 ✭✭ big mce


    This man for Taoiseach. :D:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭ marmurr1916


    I would have saved a tonne of cash by just widening existing roads to Dual Carriageway (where possible) rather than making them reduncant with new Motorways alongside them

    The amount of extra cash now needed to maintain the extra XXXKM of road we have is causing huge burden for the taxpayer

    Very, very false economy. The amount of money required to upgrade existing single carriageway roads to dual-carriageway would have been enormous.

    What about all the houses along these roads? Most of them would have had to be demolished after being CPOd. Not only would it have taken a hell of a lot longer (imagine the traffic management problems on the M50 being mulitiplied along the length of most of the major routes to/from Dublin) because of the inevitable court cases (for some reason people don't like their homes being demolished!), it would have been a hell of a lot more expensive to buy houses at the height of the property boom/bubble.

    You'd also have the problems of either GSJ'ing junctions or building over/underpasses or having dangerous at-grade junctions, median openings and right-hand turns, like on many British dual-carriageways.

    It might seem at first that this would have been cheaper but in reality it would have cost a hell of a lot more and been incredibly disruptive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,852 ✭✭✭ SeanW


    Not to mention the fact that no matter how much money you spent upgrading the existing road (and remember one off houses and suchlike prevaded pretty much the entire N road network) you would still have had to limit them to dual carriageway - 100 kph speed limit - because a Motorway must legally have a credible alternative route.

    Speaking as someone who takes the Motorways now and then, I'd much prefer having an M-Way, whether untolled or tolled (with the dodge option, if I'm feeling cheap) than have to mess around with make-believe highways.


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