Sitting Tenant Problem... Help!!

Mshec

My fiancee has recently inherited a house. The house is beautiful, on an acre etc and in the country. The only problem is that there is a sitting tenant living there for the past at least 20 years... She pays €26 per week rent and has no intention of moving out. We are both in our twenties and would like to move into this property. Does anyone have any advise on what we could possibly do to get this sitting tenant out of the property?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks

D3PO

id say you need to talk to a solicitor. being in tennancy for that length could infact provide some claim on the estate.

i really dont know but i doubt you will find the answer on here

Mshec

Hey there,

Thanks for your reply I went to a Solicitor today who advised that we should take litigation against this lady. I feel bad doing that and the fact that it could take years and lots of money!! Thanks for your reply D3PO

Danbo!

Looks like 112 days notice must be served - From threshold -

Duration of Tenancy Notice by Landlord

Less than 6 months 28 days

6 or more months but less than 1 year 35 days

1 year or more but less than 2 years 42 days

2 years or more but less than 3 years 56 days

3 years or more but less than 4 years 84 days

4 or more years 112 days

Are you sure its exactly or more than 20 years. There are also special circumstances below, but i'd say contact threshold for advice.

Tenants have long term security in rare cases only:

if the tenancy was rent controlled (see our special leaflet)

if your tenancy (or a tenancy you have taken over) has lasted twenty years, you may be entitled to a new 35 year lease.

if you fall into either of these categories and receive notice to quit, seek further advice from Threshold or a solicitor.

But then again, you may kick out a tenant if you intend to sell the house or move into it yourself I think. Again, threshold should be able to advise

Mshec

Thanks for your help guys, we really appreciate it. She is there a long time but has no intention on moving out, she has already been offered to buy the house and her response was "why buy what i already own". Its hard because we are getting married in two years and the place is ideal to start a family!! We dont mind going into legal action if we get the house at the end of it but we would rather not spend the money or the time on it if we lose the house at the end of it all. She knows what she is playing at as well, she is very well off as well. Ahh joys! We were hoping someone here might have gone through something similar

the_syco

I take it that you are now the landlord of the house?

http://www.threshold.ie/page.asp?menu=70&page=241

Notice of Termination

As stated above, the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 affords greater security of tenure to tenants. During the three and a half year period the landlord can only terminate the tenancy on specified grounds.

Acceptable grounds include the
tenant not complying with their obligations (e.g. not paying their rent)
landlord intending to sell the dwelling
landlord requiring the dwelling for his own occupation or for a family member

Something that your solicitor should know about. Not something you should mention to the tenant beforehand, so that they can't get advice on it.

Jo King

the_syco wrote: »

I take it that you are now the landlord of the house?

http://www.threshold.ie/page.asp?menu=70&page=241

Something that your solicitor should know about. Not something you should mention to the tenant beforehand, so that they can't get advice on it.

That's if it is a tenancy to which the Residential Tenancies Act applies. Not all tenancies are subject to that Act.

Graces7

Jo King wrote: »

That's if it is a tenancy to which the Residential Tenancies Act applies. Not all tenancies are subject to that Act.

Are you sure re that? it is the impression given that all tenancies come under that act whether they are registered or not.

What a difficult situation for you. Hope you get the right advice.

Goesague

Graces7 wrote: »

Are you sure re that? it is the impression given that all tenancies come under that act whether they are registered or not.

RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT 2004

3.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), this Act applies to every dwelling, the subject of a tenancy (including a tenancy created before the passing of this Act).

(2) Subject to section 4 (2), this Act does not apply to any of the following dwellings—

(a) a dwelling that is used wholly or partly for the purpose of carrying on a business, such that the occupier could, after the tenancy has lasted 5 years, make an application under section 13(1)(a) of the Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Act 1980 in respect of it,

(b) a dwelling to which Part II of the Housing (Private Rented Dwellings) Act 1982 applies,

(c) a dwelling let by or to—

(i) a public authority, or

(ii) a body standing approved for the purposes of section 6 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1992 and which is occupied by a person referred to in section 9(2) of the Housing Act 1988 ,

(d) a dwelling, the occupier of which is entitled to acquire, under Part II of the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) (No. 2) Act 1978 , the fee simple in respect of it,

(e) a dwelling occupied under a shared ownership lease,

(f) a dwelling let to a person whose entitlement to occupation is for the purpose of a holiday only,

(g) a dwelling within which the landlord also resides,

(h) a dwelling within which the spouse, parent or child of the landlord resides and no lease or tenancy agreement in writing has been entered into by any person resident in the dwelling,

(i) a dwelling the subject of a tenancy granted under Part II of section 21 of the Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Act 1980 and the court has yet to make its determination in the matter.

sickofwaiting

D3PO wrote: »

id say you need to talk to a solicitor. being in tennancy for that length could infact provide some claim on the estate.

i really dont know but i doubt you will find the answer on here

Surely she has no claim to this property?? Renting a place doesn't gradually build up an equity stake in it. That would be completely ludicrous.

Gonzales

how old is the tenant?

D3PO

sickofwaiting wrote: »

Surely she has no claim to this property?? Renting a place doesn't gradually build up an equity stake in it. That would be completely ludicrous.

and so would getting an equity stake in a property you pay nothing on when your going out and living with somebody for 3 years and not being married yet that doesnt prevent the law from saying its true does it !

long term tennancy over 20 years is a completly different ball game. Im not saying the person is definatly entitled to an equity stake but I am saying that legally they perhaps are. a solicitor specialising in this area would be needed thats for sure.

The tennant seems to know or think they know their entitlements and you can be sure they aint leaving without a legal battle.

Graces7

Goesague wrote: »

Graces7 wrote: »

Are you sure re that? it is the impression given that all tenancies come under that act whether they are registered or not.

RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT 2004

3.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), this Act applies to every dwelling, the subject of a tenancy (including a tenancy created before the passing of this Act).

(2) Subject to section 4 (2), this Act does not apply to any of the following dwellings—

(a) a dwelling that is used wholly or partly for the purpose of carrying on a business, such that the occupier could, after the tenancy has lasted 5 years, make an application under section 13(1)(a) of the Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Act 1980 in respect of it,

(b) a dwelling to which Part II of the Housing (Private Rented Dwellings) Act 1982 applies,

(c) a dwelling let by or to—

(i) a public authority, or

(ii) a body standing approved for the purposes of section 6 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1992 and which is occupied by a person referred to in section 9(2) of the Housing Act 1988 ,

(d) a dwelling, the occupier of which is entitled to acquire, under Part II of the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) (No. 2) Act 1978 , the fee simple in respect of it,

(e) a dwelling occupied under a shared ownership lease,

(f) a dwelling let to a person whose entitlement to occupation is for the purpose of a holiday only,

(g) a dwelling within which the landlord also resides,

(h) a dwelling within which the spouse, parent or child of the landlord resides and no lease or tenancy agreement in writing has been entered into by any person resident in the dwelling,

(i) a dwelling the subject of a tenancy granted under Part II of section 21 of the Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Act 1980 and the court has yet to make its determination in the matter.

OK; thank you. My wording was careless. I knew re some of the ex-clauses, but meant that none surely apply in this case?

Thank you.

Graces7

D3PO wrote: »

and so would getting an equity stake in a property you pay nothing on when your going out and living with somebody for 3 years and not being married yet that doesnt prevent the law from saying its true does it !

long term tennancy over 20 years is a completly different ball game. Im not saying the person is definatly entitled to an equity stake but I am saying that legally they perhaps are. a solicitor specialising in this area would be needed thats for sure.

The tennant seems to know or think they know their entitlements and you can be sure they aint leaving without a legal battle.

If it is an old person, they may simply be "duguit" ie stubborn.

Or they may be going for the old squatters rights idea; which if they have a lease etc surely does not apply. That is after 12 years. There have been some interesting cases under that law, but I don't recall any with rent being paid.

Wonder what the parity here is with long-tern council tenants?

bobbysands81

Formerly Rent Controlled Tenancies, as alluded by Jo King, are not under the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 but as far as I know they are a part of the PRTB.

As this rent is only €26 a week there is a chance that this property is a formerly rent controlled dwelling. If it is then this lady might have some rights to it - contact the Rent Tribunal to see if they have any idea if it is a formerly rent controlled dwelling.

moonandstars

Jus tell her to go give her a mth rent ..cos u are moving in. shouldnt be that hard. its ur fellas place, he allowed to tell her o leave.

Mshec wrote: »

My fiancee has recently inherited a house. The house is beautiful, on an acre etc and in the country. The only problem is that there is a sitting tenant living there for the past at least 20 years... She pays €26 per week rent and has no intention of moving out. We are both in our twenties and would like to move into this property. Does anyone have any advise on what we could possibly do to get this sitting tenant out of the property?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks

D3PO

moonandstars wrote: »

Jus tell her to go give her a mth rent ..cos u are moving in. shouldnt be that hard. its ur fellas place, he allowed to tell her o leave.

false. please lets stick to fact here where possible and not opinion

antoinolachtnai

Be careful. You don't have the facts here that you need. How long exactly is she in there? If it's more than 26 years, you will almost certainly not be able to get her to move without her agreement.

This is an exceptional situation.

See the section below from threshold website.

http://www.threshold.ie/page.asp?menu=70&page=240

see the section:

"Tenants have long term security in rare cases only:

If the tenancy was rent controlled (see our special leaflet)
If your tenancy (or a tenancy you have taken over) has lasted twenty years, you may be entitled to a new 35 year lease.
If you fall into either of these categories and receive notice to quit, seek further advice from Threshold or a solicitor."

Your tenant obviously has taken legal advice. They are not going to move very easily. You are probably going to have to work with the situation.

You and your fiancee need to seek legal advice of your own before you make any further moves.

Mshec

Thanks for all your advise guys and gals, we are going to have to talk about it and then seek legal help! I feel bad for her because I understand she looks at the house as her home and obv doesnt want to go, however the solicitor i spoke with yesterday told me to put my heart away due to the location of the assett and the value of it... Sometimes being a grown up sucks! Oh well... to the solicitors we go :S

Jo King

I know someone who had a similar case. Family in house for 40 years. Rent set by Tribunal. Eventually got her out after issuing court proceedings. Needed a highly regarded legal team to get it over the line.

bugler

Do let us know how you get on OP, it's an interesting case.

Joey the lips

I am following this with interest... I imagine the fees you are going to have to pay are going to add up.

1. You could approch the tenent and explain your position and say as the new landlord you want to move into the house

or

2. Leave it to the solicitor..


TBH i although am very understanding I would leave it to the solicitor.

Mary Hairy

Graces7 wrote: »

OK; thank you. My wording was careless. I knew re some of the ex-clauses, but meant that none surely apply in this case?

Thank you.

It is impossible to say what sort of a status this person has in the property, from the information given. They might be a former rent controlled tenant, or a successor to such a person, or a person entitled to a long occupation lease.
The one thing this person does not have is equity in the property itself. She may have rights as a tenant.

Cookie_Monster

Can you not just tell her the rent is going up to €5k a month on the next renewal of the lease (if there even is one)? May pursued her to move out.

If she does have a lease with the former owner how is this affect when the ownership is transferred?

Mary Hairy

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Can you not just tell her the rent is going up to €5k a month on the next renewal of the lease (if there even is one)? May pursued her to move out.

If she does have a lease with the former owner how is this affect when the ownership is transferred?

if rent was set by the Tribunal it cannot be increased. If she is under the PRTB rent cannot be greater than market rent. A lease gives a person an interest in property regardless of the ownership. When ownership of the property transfers the lease goes with it.

goat2

Graces7 wrote: »

Are you sure re that? it is the impression given that all tenancies come under that act whether they are registered or not.

What a difficult situation for you. Hope you get the right advice.

can they use the old law of squatters rights
i know two houses that this happened to
they are still there 40 yrs on

the_syco

goat2 wrote: »

can they use the old law of squatters rights

Doubt it, as they were paying rent (however small) on a continual basis.

Mshec

Eek! The rent was set by the Rent Tribunal!! I hope this works out for us!! Best leave it to the solicitors altho as one woman to another I would like to explain to her but she would probs get all nasty as she has done in the past.

antoinolachtnai

If she has an old long lease or rent tribunal lease, she is probably entitled to stay there, and there is probably very little you can do about it, other than wait for her to die (assuming she doesn't have heirs who are entitled to take on the lease) or buy her out. You might be able to get a rent increase, or you might not.

This was the case next door to me. There was a sitting tenant in the basement when the current owner bought it in 1997. This was known at the time of the purchase. He was entitled to hold on to the flat as long as he lived, and he lived until 2008. The person is perfectly entitled to remain in place, if they have such a lease.

Graces7

Mshec wrote: »

Eek! The rent was set by the Rent Tribunal!! I hope this works out for us!! Best leave it to the solicitors altho as one woman to another I would like to explain to her but she would probs get all nasty as she has done in the past.

Always best to let a third party do the work. They can be more objective.
Good luck with it; nb have you called Threshhold etc?

the_syco

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If she has an old long lease or rent tribunal lease, she is probably entitled to stay there, and there is probably very little you can do about it, other than wait for her to die (assuming she doesn't have heirs who are entitled to take on the lease) or buy her out. You might be able to get a rent increase, or you might not.

Does anyone have links on the rent tribunal lease? Google is not agreeing with me today.

antoinolachtnai

I think this is the best there is:

prtb.ie/renttribunal.htm

emick

Amazing......how many people row in with assistance to help the landlord evict the old lady. I only hope that this lady has got rights and that she is aware of them.

emick

Mshec wrote: »

I would like to explain to her but she would probs get all nasty as she has done in the past.

What did you expect her to do.........just pack her bags and leave?

billybigunz

Graces7 wrote: »

Good luck with it;

Why would you wish them good luck? I would only wish that the outcome is fair as defined by the law.

the_syco

emick wrote: »

Amazing......how many people row in with assistance to help the landlord evict the old lady. I only hope that this lady has got rights and that she is aware of them.

He inherits a house that he can't live in, but no doubt must maintain it should anything go wrong.

=-=

From http://www.prtb.ie/renttribunal.htm

The decision of the Rent Tribunal on an application will be communicated in writing to both parties in the form of a signed order of the Tribunal and will include the terms of tenancy of the dwelling.

OP, I would look into the terms of tenancy of the dwelling, and see what they say, mainly about the transfer of ownership by will.

ztoical

emick wrote: »

Amazing......how many people row in with assistance to help the landlord evict the old lady. I only hope that this lady has got rights and that she is aware of them.

They are hardly an evil landlord...they inherited the house and would like to make it into their home...o how nasty of them!

antoinolachtnai

They inherited an interest in the house but that does not entitle them to full vacant possession. The laws of land ownership are complicated and it is better not to get too emotional either way. IT is important to get good legal advice.

bobbysands81

Mshec wrote: »

Eek! The rent was set by the Rent Tribunal!! I hope this works out for us!! Best leave it to the solicitors altho as one woman to another I would like to explain to her but she would probs get all nasty as she has done in the past.

A few things here...

1. If it's a formerly rent controlled dwelling, and the person is considered an "original tenant" then the tenant has a right to remain in the property until they die, succession rights no longer apply though so when they die it reverts to you. If they are not an "original tenant" then it may be that the property can revert to you immediately - legal opinion would clear this up and should be quite easy for you to find out.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1982/en/act/pub/0006/sec0009.html#zza6y1982s9

—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Part, a person (in this section referred to as the original tenant) who, immediately before the commencement of this Act, was a tenant of a dwelling to which section 8 (1) relates (not being a dwelling referred to in section 8 (2)) shall be entitled to retain possession as the tenant of the dwelling and that entitlement shall subsist during the lifetime of that person.


However, you can come to a deal with the individual if both parties agree (eg buy her out, offer to rehouse her somewhere else for the rest of her life etc...).

10.—(1) The tenant of a dwelling to which section 8 (1) relates may surrender the dwelling to the landlord on giving to the landlord not less than one month's notice in writing of his intention to surrender the dwelling.


2. Rents are always set unbelievably low by the Rent Tribunal so you will never get a decent rent if she is an original tenant.

3. I would read the following bit VERY carefully (especially highlighted part)

16.—(1) Notwithstanding the right to retain possession under section 9, the Court may, on the application of the landlord of a dwelling to which section 8 (1) relates (not being a dwelling referred to in section 8 (2)), grant an order for the recovery of possession of the dwelling if the Court considers it reasonable to make the order and—

( a ) any rent lawfully due by the tenant has not been paid or any other obligation of the tenant under the tenancy has not been fulfilled by him, or

( b ) any person (being the tenant or any person residing in the dwelling) has been guilty of conduct which the Court is satisfied is a nuisance or annoyance to the landlord or his agent or to adjoining occupiers or has used the dwelling or allowed it to be used for any immoral or illegal purpose (whether or not the person has been convicted of so using it or allowing it to be so used), or

( c ) the condition of the dwelling has, in the opinion of the Court, deteriorated owing to acts of waste by, or the neglect or default of the tenant or any person residing in the dwelling, or

( d ) the dwelling is bona fide required by the landlord—

(i) for occupation as a residence for himself or any person bona fide residing or to reside with him, or

(ii) for occupation as a residence for a person in the wholetime employment of the landlord, or

(iii) in the interests of good estate management, or

( e ) the landlord requires vacant possession to carry out a scheme of development of property which includes the dwelling and has planning permission for the scheme,

and, as respects recovery of possession under paragraph (d) or (e), the landlord pays such sum as the Court considers reasonable to meet the expenses incurred by the tenant in quitting the dwelling, together with a sum not exceeding three years' rent of alternative accommodation which is reasonably suited to the residential and other needs of the tenant, his spouse and his family bona fide residing with him in the dwelling.

(2) The Court, in considering if it is reasonable to make an order for recovery of possession, shall have regard to the extent (if any) to which the conduct of the landlord contributed to the existence of the grounds upon which he relies in support of his application for recovery of possession.

(3) Nothing in this Part shall prevent a local authority from obtaining possession of a dwelling to which section 8 (1) relates which is reasonably required for the purpose of the execution of their powers, functions and duties.

(4) In this section—

"development" has the meaning assigned by section 3 of the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963 ;

"planning permission" means a permission for the development of land where required by and granted under Part IV of the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963 , and, where regulations under section 25 of that Act make provision for outline applications, includes a permission granted on such an application.



If you've any more questions I might be able to help.

Mshec

Hi Again!

Thanks everyone for your replies and all of your help! We have decided to leave her in the house. It could take years to get her out of the house and the legal fees would be huge, we would be better off to take out a mortgage!! So now we are looking at going down the rent to buy scheme for the mo! Unless I find a spare 25k under my mattress as a deposit for a house that is


Thanks again for all of your help!

Mshec

Graces7

billybigunz wrote: »

Why would you wish them good luck? I would only wish that the outcome is fair as defined by the law.

Which IS good luck..

Agent Smith

Mshec wrote: »

Hi Again!

Thanks everyone for your replies and all of your help! We have decided to leave her in the house. It could take years to get her out of the house and the legal fees would be huge, we would be better off to take out a mortgage!! So now we are looking at going down the rent to buy scheme for the mo! Unless I find a spare 25k under my mattress as a deposit for a house that is


Thanks again for all of your help!

Mshec

Tbh Put the house up for sale. that will drive her out

The_Conductor

Agent Smith wrote: »

Tbh Put the house up for sale. that will drive her out

No it won't- it gets sold as is- with a sitting tenant, who cannot be easily evicted, and who continues to pay her EUR26 a week (subject to review by the rent tribunal).

The only silver lining in all of this is that inheritance rights for leases of this nature no longer apply. A further downside is that the OP does not qualify for favourable treatment as a FTB- and going for one of the Rent-to-buy or distressed NAMA related disposals- would very probably not result in a property suitable for bringing up a family in (though at least they have the prospect of this property at the end of the day- however long it may take).