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Voting systems and fairness very helpfull article

Comments

  • #2
    scallioneater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭scallioneater


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Just wanted to put a link to this very informative article in after listening to Irish radio presenters going on about how great PR is compared to the British system (it is IMO but its good to know the math behind it rather than the opinion)

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627581.400-electoral-dysfunction-why-democracy-is-always-unfair.html


    Can't read it, subscription required. In my opinion, neither the Irish PR nor the British FPP system is fair because of boundary drawing. With modern statistics packages giving such detail on voting patterns, whoever draws the boundaries decides the outcomes.


  • #3
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Yes redistricting will always be a problem in electoral politics, particularly in a sparsely populated country like Ireland where party voter management is so good. Personally i feel large constituencies encompassing natural boundaries or even a single national one constituency would be most apt to combat the issue.

    The problem in the US is that frequently the task for changing electoral boundaries is in the hands of partizan individuals rather then having an impartial electoral/boundary commission (on paper anyway).


  • #4
    scallioneater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭scallioneater


    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    Yes redistricting will always be a problem in electoral politics, particularly in a sparsely populated country like Ireland where party voter management is so good. Personally i feel large constituencies encompassing natural boundaries or even a single national one constituency would be most apt to combat the issue.

    The problem in the US is that frequently the task for changing electoral boundaries is in the hands of partizan individuals rather then having an impartial electoral/boundary commission (on paper anyway).


    I've also thought about the natural boundaries possibility, but I worry that it is not a universal solution (eg. large flat plain with no rivers) and that deciding on what a natural boundary is also open to abuse.

    The national electoral district is also a good solution because at least these boundaries have the legitimacy that comes from people killing and dying to establish them. Unfortunately, national borders also have the problem of being inflexible and don't allow for change. In addition, the only example I know of a national electoral district is the "list" system which can easily descend into a list of friends, negating any gains from removing local districts.

    Equally, the boundary commission options end up being dominated by civil service types and judges that inject their own middle class and self righteous mindset into the process. Commissions can end up excluding working class, traditional, and sometimes even logic from the process in their desire to get the numbers right.

    For me, the scary realisation at the base of these problems is that there is no correct way to draw a boundary. They will always be unfair. A realisation that experts can't solve these issues should be the foundation of any districting criteria and a much greater and genuine effort to include all citizens and gain consent from voters for a districting decision should occur. The backroom deals or secretive commissions are not healthy for society and government legitimacy.

    As for the US, it depends on whether you are talking about local, state, or federal elections and which state you want to talk about. I grew up in Ireland and live in the U.S. now, so I'm the guy to talk to about this. What level, or state in the U.S. are you thinking about?


  • #5
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    scallioneater wrote: »
    The national electoral district is also a good solution because at least these boundaries have the legitimacy that comes from people killing and dying to establish them. Unfortunately, national borders also have the problem of being inflexible and don't allow for change. In addition, the only example I know of a national electoral district is the "list" system which can easily descend into a list of friends, negating any gains from removing local districts.

    I agree that having a national list system will invariably lead to political cronies dominating the upper echelons of the list, however i imagine that smart candidate selection which will be required under a NL system on behalf of the parties could negate this.

    Party organisations will still have to find candidates to put on a NL system who appeal to the electorate at a local level across the country, as such the party will have to ensure that its list selection will have a selection of names drawn from across the country on order to attract votes. if they don't then rival parties would be likely to maximise their support by putting up candidates from areas perceived to not have representation.

    An alternative for Ireland, which ties in with the natural boundaries issue, would be to use regional constituencies similar in make up to the EP consituencies, this way you get a balance between candidates with strong local links but still requiring to look for support from across the constituency outside of their support base in order to get elected.


    scallioneater wrote: »
    Equally, the boundary commission options end up being dominated by civil service types and judges that inject their own middle class and self righteous mindset into the process. Commissions can end up excluding working class, traditional, and sometimes even logic from the process in their desire to get the numbers right.

    Boundary commissions are never perfect or free from influence from stakeholders but i'm not sure what alternative there is. Public consultation & engagement in the process?
    scallioneater wrote: »
    For me, the scary realisation at the base of these problems is that there is no correct way to draw a boundary. They will always be unfair. A realisation that experts can't solve these issues should be the foundation of any districting criteria and a much greater and genuine effort to include all citizens and gain consent from voters for a districting decision should occur. The backroom deals or secretive commissions are not healthy for society and government legitimacy.

    Agreed, again i think without engagement with the public the process of boundary selection & electoral system choice then the system is open to abuse and domination by those who know the rulebook inside out as seen with Irish politics over the decades.


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