Massive Electricity Bill

kormak

Okay so i've posted on this before last winter after I received an ESB bill for e340. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055762160

since then we changed over to Airtricity..
we also cut out our electrical shower and fixed the switch on our well pump, as well as the obvious cutting down.
1st bill from Airtricity we received for 6 weeks was e199 last winter. Not too bad....
Then... we don't get a bill off them for a few months.
After querying this last week they advised it was a billing fault on their side and it was now resolved. they also requested a new meter reading...
to my absolute shock today we received a new bill from them for a duration of just over 3 months for : e844!!!
I phoned them and again and was advised (by them) that this seemed very high.
the girl again advised me to trip the mains and check the meter to see if it was moving. this time i did, however the little red dial actually stopped and started moving backwards albeit very slowly???!!
she also reckoned that they have seen cases where massive bills occurred in houses with perfectly functioning meters however when further investigated it was found that a particular appliance was overusing electricity and causing the massive bills!!
i have since requested someone from ESB networks to come onsite and check our meter.
I'm hoping they might locate the problem once and for all!! even if they can locate a particular appliance...
this is an absolute nightmare for us!
our house is 1700 sq ft, 4 bedrooms, average family home. fully detached country house.
we don't use that much heavy appliances.
a condenser dryer is probably about the height of it.
our shower is heated from the oil boiler...
i have absolutely no idea why this is happening.
can anyone offer any assistance here or even point me towards a technician that will fully investigate this?
these bills now average at e280 per month which is crazy!
PLEASE HELP!

mazthespark

is the immersion on all the time? may be faulty? a large amount of recessed lights? if you use a lot of water the well pump may be running very often.
could be any of the above or a combination of. get your self an energy meter. there a little box which tells you how much electricity you are using can be set to estimate your bill depending on usage etc. if u connect this it will tell you what you are using then go around the house and switch stuff off and look for what is using the power.
something like this is what you are looking for

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=225407

Davy

I dont think esb networks will be much help to you. They can check to the meter, but after that it really an electrician you need.

You should also get yourself a energy meter, so you can keep an ongoing record of it. Plenty of different designs and models. Owl and wattson are two of the top of my head. I think you can even buy them in B&Q etc now, aswell of loads of online retailers. You fit a sensor at the meter, and then you have a display in the house, and it will tell you how much you are using at any minute. It can connect to a computer so you can log a complete record so you can look at your usage over a period. Or compare certain days, months etc.

kormak

mazthespark wrote: »

is the immersion on all the time? may be faulty? a large amount of recessed lights? if you use a lot of water the well pump may be running very often.
could be any of the above or a combination of. get your self an energy meter. there a little box which tells you how much electricity you are using can be set to estimate your bill depending on usage etc. if u connect this it will tell you what you are using then go around the house and switch stuff off and look for what is using the power.
something like this is what you are looking for

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=225407

we're only in this house around 8 months.
we do not have an immersion installed. we do however have a large amount of down lights installed around the house, which i am aware of.
they're all 50 watt too. i have changed some of them down to 25 watt. the ones we use anyway.
this little meter looks cool, thanks for the link. i think could deffo help us figuren out the real culprits.

kormak

Davy wrote: »

I dont think esb networks will be much help to you. They can check to the meter, but after that it really an electrician you need.

You should also get yourself a energy meter, so you can keep an ongoing record of it. Plenty of different designs and models. Owl and wattson are two of the top of my head. I think you can even buy them in B&Q etc now, aswell of loads of online retailers. You fit a sensor at the meter, and then you have a display in the house, and it will tell you how much you are using at any minute. It can connect to a computer so you can log a complete record so you can look at your usage over a period. Or compare certain days, months etc.

again thanks, being an I.T. techy i like the sound of logging and reporting usage.
re. esb networks. i have a call in for them. apparently if they do find a fault i won't be charged. however there is a charge of e157 if you find the no faults and the meter is running as designed.
really wanna double check the meter is 100% though.
then i'll get a sparky to check the house.
thanks again.

Davy

You can have them install a check meter which will go beside your original one, and will record your usage for a few days and see do they match.

mazthespark

its more or less the same thing u can buy so to save the call out charge maybe try the energy meter first. maybe your just using the power. estimated billing also plays a part too mite explain the high bill.

Gang of Gin

Davy wrote: »

You can have them install a check meter which will go beside your original one, and will record your usage for a few days and see do they match.

Davy? Sir Humphrey? Good to see you're offering your thruppence 'orth. I suppose a lamp in your name wouldn't solve much. Your treatment of Farraday was poor though.

gu10

kormak wrote: »

we're only in this house around 8 months.
we do not have an immersion installed. we do however have a large amount of down lights installed around the house, which i am aware of.
they're all 50 watt too. i have changed some of them down to 25 watt. the ones we use anyway.
this little meter looks cool, thanks for the link. i think could deffo help us figuren out the real culprits.

you can get some decent leds for these which would be only 2-7w. but it sounds like a more sinister problem, you could remove all the fuses or switch off mcb's to try and track down the guzzler

kormak

right... i'm back with some interesting findings!
firstly thanks for recommending the wireless meter. it's a great job and really is very accurate.
I believe there might be a very slight power leak.

with the meter on and reading we tripped the mains completely.
firstly, the meter dropped to 0.0 and stayed there.
secondly, the meter stops reading (however the little red seems to gradually pulls itself back into place, the actual notches don't move even after 10 minutes.)
After this we then turned all mains on and powered off absolutely everything in the house. alarm & well pump had were tripped for convenience.
when we did this the meter still read 0.01kW.
The meter itself again looks like it's stopped dead however something somewhere was still drawing this tiny amount.
back inside we then switched all the MCBs off one by one until we found the one that dropped the meter from 0.01 to 0.0.
The MCB was marked lights and it actually all the lights wired to the new extension build to our house.
So basically between the sun room, master bedroom and master bedroom all the lights are wired back to this MCB.

Where to next???

I guess the best thing to do is cancel the meter being tested by ESB networks? I don't really think the meter is at fault here.
Will an electrician be able to trace this power leak?
Is this small amount even worth trying to trace? surely every bit will add up.
your expert thoughts please...

mazthespark

have you recessed lights in the house? are they mains or low voltage. if low voltage the transformers or something maybe using power, also the door bell traffo smoke alarms etc. all very small amounts but they could add up. time clock motors etc

kormak

mazthespark wrote: »

have you recessed lights in the house? are they mains or low voltage. if low voltage the transformers or something maybe using power, also the door bell traffo smoke alarms etc. all very small amounts but they could add up. time clock motors etc

yep sun room and master have down lights. they work off the mains.
smoke alarms & house alarm are working off the same MCB which was turned off. dunno about the doorbell, didn't think of that.
but everything (all MCBs were off when it changes from 0.01 to 0.0)
the wiring must have all wired together when the extension was built which was only 4/5 years ago compared to the rest of the old house.

M cebee

earth-leakage is not unknown- worth a check

an earth-leakage clamp on the main-protective conductor

as well as IR tests

anything substantial on rcd-protected circuits would trip though

then of course there's 'vampire power':D

might be an idea to record the units used per day for a while

mazthespark

well the 0.01 isnt a great amount and wouldnt add up to a huge amount at end of 2 months i reckon. the meter will give u better idea of what your using and when has certainly helped in our house, you take a glance at it and run around the house turning stuff off to get it down ha

Bruthal

mazthespark wrote: »

well the 0.01 isnt a great amount and wouldnt add up to a huge amount at end of 2 months i reckon. the meter will give u better idea of what your using and when has certainly helped in our house, you take a glance at it and run around the house turning stuff off to get it down ha

Yes 0.01 is nothing, insignificant. But the meter stopping when all power draw stops does not mean the meter is reading correctly when there is power being used. The meter should still be tested to make sure its revs per kw is correct, maybe against the meter your now using to see the consumption as mazthspark says

arse..biscuits

0.01kW x 24hours x 30days x 2 months = 14.4kWh

14.4kWh x €0.15 (cant remember the exact price of a kWh) = €2.16

This isn't your major problem. It does however give you an idea of a payback period if you were to get rid of the traffos.

Bruthal

arse..biscuits wrote: »

0.01kW x 24hours x 30days x 2 months = 14.4kWh

14.4kWh x €0.15 (cant remember the exact price of a kWh) = €2.16

This isn't your major problem. It does however give you an idea of a payback period if you were to get rid of the traffos.

I may be wrong, but i would of thought the traffo`s on low voltage lights would be off when the lights are switched off.

M cebee

won't be the trafos- as the lights were off

mazthespark

robbie7730 wrote: »

I may be wrong, but i would of thought the traffo`s on low voltage lights would be off when the lights are switched off.

ya but the likes of bell traffos etc are always on unless u trip mcb and also smoke alarms etc.

Bruthal

mazthespark wrote: »

ya but the likes of bell traffos etc are always on unless u trip mcb and also smoke alarms etc.

And what would he replace them with.

M cebee

ya there will be some 'standing' draw

doubt meter reading will drop to zero

mazthespark

nothing unless he leaves them off but they cant be using that much power neway.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

ya there will be some 'standing' draw

doubt meter reading will drop to zero

0.01kw might not even turn the meter, but even if a meter does stop at zero load, it could still be innacurate when there is current flow, the bill they had is like 70kwh`s a day i think. Thats nearly 3kw load 24 hours a day, so 0.01 is insignificant. Probably nearly get that by induction in a house between L&N

mazthespark

high water usage? think he mentioned a well? pump could be running a lot. also if geothermal is installed and not set up right the heater bank could be going all the time. I suggested the immersion but says they do not have one installed.

Bruthal

earth leakage has been mentioned, possible alright, measure live and neutral currents to see if any difference with everything on, a grip ammeter around both L&N together will show any earth leakage, no leakage and grip meter reads zero.

mazthespark

ya but would u not have a massive earth leakage to compensate for that? would have to be something causing it no?

M cebee

good idea if possible -around the P+N -these earth leakage clamps seem to have come down in price as well

Bruthal

mazthespark wrote: »

ya but would u not have a massive earth leakage to compensate for that? would have to be something causing it no?

Yes your probably right, but may as well check everything, to check current draw on each circuit with the items switched on is needed for any tests of what current flow there is anyway, socket circuits wont have earth leakage problem anyway once RCD fitted, but outside stuff such as well pump etc could be tested.

Finding zero flow with all MCBs off is fine to show the meter is stopping, but each circuit should be turned on by itself with everything on the circuit switched on and see what load there is compared to what would be expected. One circuit on, then back off, and test next circuit on its own. Then all circuits together.

M cebee

leakage might be nothing but it's worth a look

as well as connected loads and their 'controls' and usage


remember seeing a slab nail through a 1.5 t+e once on an old house

meter was flying and the fuse and nail were hot

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

leakage might be nothing but it's worth a look

as well as connected loads and their 'controls' and usage


remember seeing a slab nail through a 1.5 t+e once on an old house

meter was flying and the fuse was hot

Yea 10 or 11 amps leakage 24 hours a day would account for the huge bill here, 10 amps constant, so if the normal usage is included then the 10 amps might be just 6 or 7. I think they said there is a well and probably a pump, might be worth a look there.

trad

Davy wrote: »

You can have them install a check meter which will go beside your original one, and will record your usage for a few days and see do they match.

I had simular problems with my ESB bill and afrter a great deal of persuasion they came out and fitted a test meter in line with the existing one. Test went on for the better part of a month, there was a discrepancy of approx 12% -13% in my favour according to the test meter. My old meter was replaced by a new electronic meter and I'm satisfied enough with my bills since.

A year later I gets a cursory letter from the ESB saying my old meter is within operations tollerances and no adjustment is forthcoming. Despite requesting in writing the results of the 11 months of tests the ESB carried out on my meter they Have so far declined to release the test results to me. I reckon I have been overcharged for years and attempted to take a case to the Small Claims Court but it's not within their realm. I am now going down the route of the ESB'c customer Charter and from there to the Regulator.

Bottom line no matter who you are with your useage is recorded by an ESB meter. If you have the old spinning wheel type of meter it can be up to 40 years old. I don't know of any mechanical recording device that can remain accurate for that length of time without recalibration.

Bruthal

trad wrote: »

I had simular problems with my ESB bill and afrter a great deal of persuasion they came out and fitted a test meter in line with the existing one. Test went on for the better part of a month, there was a discrepancy of approx 12% -13% in my favour according to the test meter. My old meter was replaced by a new electronic meter and I'm satisfied enough with my bills since.

A year later I gets a cursory letter from the ESB saying my old meter is within operations tollerances and no adjustment is forthcoming. Despite requesting in writing the results of the 11 months of tests the ESB carried out on my meter they Have so far declined to release the test results to me. I reckon I have been overcharged for years and attempted to take a case to the Small Claims Court but it's not within their realm. I am now going down the route of the ESB'c customer Charter and from there to the Regulator.

Bottom line no matter who you are with your useage is recorded by an ESB meter. If you have the old spinning wheel type of meter it can be up to 40 years old. I don't know of any mechanical recording device that can remain accurate for that length of time without recalibration.

Its a good possibility the same problem is the case here as well. They would probably be billing you quick enough if it was in their favour.

kormak

trad wrote: »

I had simular problems with my ESB bill and afrter a great deal of persuasion they came out and fitted a test meter in line with the existing one. Test went on for the better part of a month, there was a discrepancy of approx 12% -13% in my favour according to the test meter. My old meter was replaced by a new electronic meter and I'm satisfied enough with my bills since.

A year later I gets a cursory letter from the ESB saying my old meter is within operations tollerances and no adjustment is forthcoming. Despite requesting in writing the results of the 11 months of tests the ESB carried out on my meter they Have so far declined to release the test results to me. I reckon I have been overcharged for years and attempted to take a case to the Small Claims Court but it's not within their realm. I am now going down the route of the ESB'c customer Charter and from there to the Regulator.

Bottom line no matter who you are with your useage is recorded by an ESB meter. If you have the old spinning wheel type of meter it can be up to 40 years old. I don't know of any mechanical recording device that can remain accurate for that length of time without recalibration.

Would it be worth my while then requesting one of these?
How much do they charge to intsall this?
We have since cancelled the engineer call out as we felt the meter appeared to be working fine.
The meter itself is installed on the newly built extesnion wall and it looks to be quite new in build, but it's still the old "spinning" one.

So far we'have been taking daily readings from the meter, keeping a close eye on the wireless meter and will be issuing Airtricity with ctual readings every month.
If the cost calculations are correct on the wireless efergy meter i simply Can not understand how a monthly bill could average at €280.

ps. for earlier questions:
we do have a deep borewell, the swich was gone on this last winter for a few weeks before I copped it, so it was continously on, giving a false reading for the pump.
This has been fixed now. (i'm sure this added to the units increase, even if it wasn't accurately displayed by the first estimated bill: 199 for 6 weeks)
Also, we don't have an immersion. And more strangley we decided against using the instant electric shower all winter as the water from the tank was good enough to use the other shower with.

trad

It took constant phone calls to the ESB to get them to agree to fit the test meter. The day they agreed I was on the phone for about an hour and had to be quite insistant.

The ESB's position is that their meters are accurate, could you imagine the outcry if it was found that they have been overcharging us for years.

kormak

trad wrote: »

It took constant phone calls to the ESB to get them to agree to fit the test meter. The day they agreed I was on the phone for about an hour and had to be quite insistant.

The ESB's position is that their meters are accurate, could you imagine the outcry if it was found that they have been overcharging us for years.

aye! imagine... well we'll keep a very close eye on things and report back.
we actually had someone from ESB networks who were "casually" callin around to read the meter anyway the other day.
we was trying not to be biased in any way, but she reckons she has heard a number of people who are disgruntled by these "so called savings" from Airtricity & Bord Gais.... and are actually turning back to ESB?!
any truth in this?

Conor.d2

I got a Wattson energy monitor a few months ago and it has really helped me understand my family's energy consumption at home. My bills have gone down each month now and I can even store the usage data and download it onto the free software, wittily named Holmes, every month.
I now have a detailed profile of all my electricit use since March, which I can break down into months, weeks, and even every 5 minutes!
Its pretty slick looking too so my wife's not embarrassed to have it in my living room and the kids have really learned from it too - the colour displays and cool design is a fun way to get them to understand whats going on. Now theyre gicing out to us when we leave lights on!!:D
Just thought Id share it with you guys anyway - we think its a great investment and reckon its already paid for it self
C

kormak

Just to add to this post... (which I've forgotten about!)
Our Airtricity bills have been approx. €40 each month so far, so it baffles me how they got so big.
I guess next winter will be the test, especially as we're getting used to the live meter in the house.

dingding

REgarding the small about of electricity you were using earlier, if you have 2 electric showers, there should be a device called a contactor which will use a small amount of electricity.

M cebee

dingding wrote: »

REgarding the small about of electricity you were using earlier, if you have 2 electric showers, there should be a device called a contactor which will use a small amount of electricity.

ya, Theres been a zillion questions on them shower controllers and i still forget .The 2 contactors are normally energized on a non -priority off the shelf unit.Think it was 11watts standby or was it?

RoundyMooney

Depends on both the sensing relay, and the control coil, but I'd imagine it's a good bit less than that:)

Most issues surrounding consumption stem from these factors:

-Blissful ignorance as to how much appliances consume-I'm guilty of that myself!

-Failure to submit an accurate start reading (almost certainly not the case here)

-Dodgy billing on the part of the supplier (Sorry to say, I see this every day with certain entrants to the market-they are getting their house in order, but slowly, and when I say dodgy, I mean failure to issue bills, over dependence on estimation etc.)

-Estimation on the part of Networks, this happens, and shouldn't, but a number of factors come into play, inaccessibility to the meter, (they should be read every quarter, but people are @ work etc., and on occasion access may be impossible due to safety concerns or other anomalies)

Electromechanical meters very rarely go astray, if they do, they tend to read slow rather than fast, and what the OP saw as a slowly moving disc was merely the disc finding equilibrium after the load was removed.

Basically my point is, that focusing on small loads is a waste of time. Rule out earth leakage first, with professional assistance if needed, and after that, with or without the help of an OWL (great bit of kit btw) or similiar, watch what you use.

OP, make sure if you can, of course that the readings correspond. I assume Airtricity give the readings on the bill, I know others do. Big bills are not nice at anytime, to say the least

Fuzzy Clam

Conor.d2 wrote: »

I got a Wattson energy monitor a few months ago and it has really helped me understand my family's energy consumption at home. My bills have gone down each month now and I can even store the usage data and download it onto the free software, wittily named Holmes, every month.
I now have a detailed profile of all my electricit use since March, which I can break down into months, weeks, and even every 5 minutes!
Its pretty slick looking too so my wife's not embarrassed to have it in my living room and the kids have really learned from it too - the colour displays and cool design is a fun way to get them to understand whats going on. Now theyre gicing out to us when we leave lights on!!:D
Just thought Id share it with you guys anyway - we think its a great investment and reckon its already paid for it self
C

An advertising agency couldn't have written that better

Fuzzy Clam

kormak wrote: »

Just to add to this post... (which I've forgotten about!)
Our Airtricity bills have been approx. €40 each month so far, so it baffles me how they got so big.
I guess next winter will be the test, especially as we're getting used to the live meter in the house.

Thats not bad at all.
My average with the ESB over the last year (as a single person) is 90 p/m. This includes winter of course and I also run some heavy equipment for a day or 2 each month.

Conor.d2

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

An advertising agency couldn't have written that better

Thanks FuzzyClam, do you think Im in the wrong profession?