Supercharging an Alfa 156. 1.8 T. spark

samsemtex

I've been giving thought to the idea of supercharging my 156 at some stage. I got the car for a really really good price so I am willing to spend some of the savings on getting more power out of it. The supercharger (including the cost of fitting) is linked below.

http://www.autodeltashop.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_65&products_id=583

Now i know it seems like a huge sum of money to spend on a 6 year old car but I did spend about €2,000 less on the car than I had budgeted for so why not? Autodelta told me that supercharger on the 1.8 should bring it up to about 205-210bhp. Including supercharging the car would cost me about €8,500 which is considerably less than i would pay for a similarly powered BMW 330i and then I'd be stuck with possibly the least interesting and common car in the country (try not to get offended BMW heads). The 156 is imo better to drive than a 3 series and the ride is infinitely better than any M-pack BMW ive been in.

Alternatively another option is to do air intake, remap and exhaust but that would only bring it up by about 15bhp. Another way would be to buy a V6 version but is impossible to get a facelifted 2.5 litre V6 so i would have to go for an older car without the TI spec and more importantly the sports suspension. And with a heavy V6 in the front it just wouldn't be as good to drive. Also the road tax on a 2.5 is €569 more a year so it would begin to eat into any savings on price pretty quickly. So i'd have a more expensive car to run that wouldnt be as nicely kitted out or as good to drive.

As for my car the engine seems to be in good condition with a FSH and 69,000 miles on it. It runs perfectly aside from the usual Alfa trick of drinking oil like Marlboro man smokes cigarettes but it burns no more than Alfa say they can burn. Everything else about the car is immaculate inside and out. It drives beautifully and it really is begging for more power. It handles unbelievably well and its hard to believe its FWD.

Would supercharging a car with that sort of mileage cause trouble? What are the potential pitfalls. Would it create huge reliability issues? Obviously MPG would go through the floor but thats to be expected.

I know there are other cars out there that come with more power as standard but there is nothing out there that looks anything as good as a 156. Not for that money anyway.

B00MSTICK

Supercharging it will put an increased strain on the engine and components. Alfa are not known for their reliability so that would cast a bit of doubt on it in my eyes.

Now I know very little about Alfas and maybe they take very well to supercharging but I'd imagine you might need to get some of your internals strengthened.

The kit will probably cost you €5k to buy and install here (possibly more? have autodelta somewhere in Ireland?) They don't mention that they will tune the ECU, they say they'll tune the injection system but I'd want to make sure my Air/Fuel pressure/ratios were spot on so you may want to get it tuned somewhere else.

You also have to remember that you'll lose a hell of a lot come resale and your insurance will go up. They may even ask for an engineers report.

A 2.4 JTDm will have around 175BHP and quite a bit of torque which could get relatively good gains after a chip and remap (around €500)

The diesel engines are also known to be more resilient than their petrol conunterparts and will sell alot better.

Of course at the end of the day its your decision, I'd be sure to post up on a few owners clubs and ask for peoples experiences with them before you decide to do it or not.

samsemtex

B00MSTICK wrote: »

Supercharging it will put an increased strain on the engine and components. Alfa are not known for their reliability so that would cast a bit of doubt on it in my eyes.

Now I know very little about Alfas and maybe they take very well to supercharging but I'd imagine you might need to get some of your internals strengthened.

The kit will probably cost you €5k to buy and install here (possibly more? have autodelta somewhere in Ireland?) They don't mention that they will tune the ECU, they say they'll tune the injection system but I'd want to make sure my Air/Fuel pressure/ratios were spot on so you may want to get it tuned somewhere else.

You also have to remember that you'll lose a hell of a lot come resale and your insurance will go up. They may even ask for an engineers report.

A 2.4 JTDm will have around 175BHP and quite a bit of torque which could get relatively good gains after a chip and remap (around €500)

The diesel engines are also known to be more resilient than their petrol conunterparts and will sell alot better.

Of course at the end of the day its your decision, I'd be sure to post up on a few owners clubs and ask for peoples experiences with them before you decide to do it or not.

Thanks for the reply. According to Autodelta they do take quite well to it. Now obviously they are going to say that but they are a very reputable company by all accounts. I was speaking with them and they will do everything. They can send a truck for the car and bring it back to London for £300 and do everything that needs to be done. What parts do you reckon might be susceptible to failure with the increased power?

As for resale, I dont really think it will hurt it that much. If anything I would imagine it will help it. Lets face it a standard 2004 Alfa 156 with 80k+ miles isnt going to be worth a huge amount in a couple of years anyway. The alfa owners forum is very active with Irish members and I would say it would be relatively easy to sell on after. There are always people looking for GTAs who cant stomach forking out €1500 a year in tax so I think it is a car an enthusiast would be looking for. A good GTA would still cost about €12,000 from England. So a car with similar horsepower and much, much smaller tax bills would be attractive. It's definitely something I'd have been interested in when I was buying. Especially as I keep it immaculate.

Anyway if I do spend that much on it I might as well keep it a few years as I would take a huge hit on it otherwise. I might never sell it on!

Diesel Alfa...no thanks. Apart from being a diesel they arent actually that reliable. timiing belt failure is a big enough issue. The main issue with petrol Alfas from what I can see was caused by people leaving them run low on oil and Alfa not bothering to put an oil warning light on the car despite the fact it is so heavy on it.

Nonoperational

Any sensible person would tell you you are mad! I can't bring myself to say that to you...

qz

Madness. I have the same car, and I love her to bits but you can't honestly say that spending 8 grand on it is worth it. I'd rather try and bring in a 156 GTA from England for that kind of money, or even buy a GTV V6.

B00MSTICK

Well its more like €5.5k but you still have a point.

You're talking ~€100/hp gained...

If you went breathing mods/remap you might only gain 15BHP but it'd only cost a few hundred.

Could be a better option to buy one thats already had a bit of work done?

paddy147

I have 2 turbocharged Alfa 147s.

This is my Alfa 147 road car,1.6 and 280bhp/232 pounds feet torque.

I used Autodelta before to turbo my Alfa a few years ago

They were a complete disaster,they were not able to weld propperly or turbocharge propperly,they were and are a complete ripp off and I would never ever use them again.

The car blew up 3 weeks later,and I had to have it completely rebuilt to a propper forged specification.

My 280bhp 1.6 engine is now for sale as I have a 400+bhp 2 litre engine just built for me.

280bhp engine for sale.


My Alfa and 996.

Atomic Pineapple

is the Alfa still fwd with 400bhp?

paddy147

draffodx wrote: »

is the Alfa still 4fwd with 400bhp?

Yes,it is,the entire suspension and braking syetem is completely uprated to near race spec,as are the brakes.The gearbox has been uprated and strengthened too.

The car has also been lightened over all.The entire oem interior is gone.Even the heater box is gone and replaced with a lighter heater.Roll caged too.

Nissan doctor

As per the above pics, OP if you want to add forced induction to your alfa then speak to trackday performance in Wicklow....

paddy147

Anyway,with regards Autodelta,I would be very very carefull of what they tell you and what they claim.

I know and learnt the hard way from my own bad experience with them and all the excuses they gave me.

Pay them alot,but get feck all back in return.:mad:

My 2 cents.


Regards.

B00MSTICK

Sounds like you could be onto a winner with Paddys 1.6 there OP, assuming it'll fit into a 156.

Good personal experience there too.

paddy147

Brief engine spec

280bhp and 232 pounds feet of torques at 12 psi boost.Running 95 octane pump fuel. (300bhp at 15 psi boost)
Fully polished and honed block
Lightened and balanced crank
Balanced rods
Je Forged pistons (8.5:1)
Lightened flywheel and uprated clutch
CNC machined cylinder head.
Custom made solid copper head gasket.
Custom inlet plenum/manifold
Custom Pace Products alloy 65mm core FMIC/ pipework
Pace 50mm core race radiator with slimline race fan
Setrab 16 row oil cooler with Aeroquip braided oil lines and alloy fittings
Custom 65mm cable throttlebody
Custom stainless tubular manifold with external wastgate and down pipe
Hybrid Greddy TD05/18G turbo
Tial 38mm external wastegate with Turbosmart dump valve.
RC Engineering 330cc injectors with custom machined twin port billet fuel rail
Spare copper gaskets included aswell (brand new and never needed)

samsemtex

qz wrote: »

Madness. I have the same car, and I love her to bits but you can't honestly say that spending 8 grand on it is worth it. I'd rather try and bring in a 156 GTA from England for that kind of money, or even buy a GTV V6.

I wouldnt be spending €8,000, thats what the car would cost me in total with the supercharger. I agree spending €8k on supercharging a car would be madness. Bringing in a GTA would cost about €12,000 and if i kept if for 3 years I would have paid €3,000 MORE in motor tax alone than I would on the 1.8.

paddy147 wrote: »

Anyway,with regards Autodelta,I would be very very carefull of what they tell you and what they claim.

I know and learnt the hard way from my own bad experience with them and all the excuses they gave me.

Pay them alot,but get feck all back in return.:mad:

My 2 cents.


Regards.

Thanks for that info. Interesting things you have said about Autodelta there. Most of the comments on the Alfa owners forum about them seem positive. Are there any alternatives you would recommend? I'm not too keen on the idea of turbo charging it. It just seems like a huge bag of potential problems and I dont want turbo lag so supercharging would be my preference.

I think your 1.6 is a bit too extreme for me. The car would still be a daily driver so I think 280bhp in would be too much. Fair play though that is some amount of work to get done on it. It must have cost a fair bit. Where did you get the work done? Surely getting that kind of power from a 1.6 is pushing it a bit. How much are you looking for it though? Let me know in a PM if you can.

paddy147

By all means use Autodelta,get a full written quotation from them 1st listing all parts and all work to be done.Also make sure that all the work is carried out before you hand over any money whatt so ever.

Also remember,that you have to get the car over to them (london) and then get back home,then get over to london and then drive all the way back home,OR,do what I did,have the car transported both ways.

That cost me 1000 euro alone,but thats about 4 years ago now.

Maybe Autodelta have upped their game in this day and age,but I know that they stopped turboing Alfa twinspark engines a while ago,as a few of them had....eh....."problems".:rolleyes:

Slapping a T-28 turbo on a standard engine,sticking on a side mount intercooler from an Alfa JTD,giving it a custom map,whacking up the boost to 13 psi,using lumps of very badly welded piping and plastic gutter pipe too,and then charging the customer a small fortune for it,is not what a turbo conversion should be.Sure Im no mechanic,but even I could have done a better job myself in my back garden garage.

But,maybe Autodelta have changed their ways.
I doubt it though,after speaking to a fella in the Uk a few months ago,that had the same bad issues with Autodelta.
Be wary of them though.

paddy147

samsemtex wrote: »

I wouldnt be spending €8,000, thats what the car would cost me in total with the supercharger. I agree spending €8k on supercharging a car would be madness.




Thanks for that info. Interesting things you have said about Autodelta there. Most of the comments on the Alfa owners forum about them seem positive. Are there any alternatives you would recommend? I'm not too keen on the idea of turbo charging it. It just seems like a huge bag of potential problems and I dont want turbo lag so supercharging would be my preference.

I think your 1.6 is a bit too extreme for me. The car would still be a daily driver so I think 280bhp in would be too much. Fair play though that is some amount of work to get done on it. It must have cost a fair bit. Where did you get the work done? Surely getting that kind of power from a 1.6 is pushing it a bit. How much are you looking for it though? Let me know in a PM if you can.

The engine is not being pushed,not at all in fact.Its all about using the correct performance parts,getting the fueling and flow of the gasses right,and also having someone who can understand and build an engine in a professional manner,and map and dyno in a propper and professional manner too.

My car with 280bhp ran Omex 700 Pro stand alone management with Race Logic traction control system

The new 2 litre turboed engine/car runs Motec M400 management.

That complete 1.6 turboed engine including all the parts listed above is for sale for 1900 euro,which reflects the current economic climate,so basicly,its one hell of a bargin.Plus the fact that my back garden garage is bursting with Alfa 147 race car and road car parts and I dont have a uses or indeed a space for this engine now.So it has to go.

I also have brand new never used GoTech Pro management system for this engine,I could do the complete turboed engine and new engine management for 2500 euro.






P.S-Most of the lads over on AO who praise Autodelta have only ever bought a set of ARBs or got an induction kit off them,or maybe gopt their standard cars remapped (off the shelf remap too) so they are not in a position to comment on such a serious subject as forced induction tuning from Autodelta.

Oh and for the record,I brought my car to 2 seperate tuners here in Ireland,and both were shocked at how shody and bad the work done by Autodelta was.And as for the map that Autodelta did on the car,both dynos and both tuners showed me just how bad it was.All over the place and no boost till 4400rpm.
The claimed and prommised 206bhp from Autodelta actually turned out to be a barely achieveble and struggling car with 185bhp.206bhp ME HOLE.Not good at all.

Again,just my 2 cents from my actual,experience of Autodelta.

Regards.

B00MSTICK

If you find 280BHP a bit much you could lower the boost. Modern turbos don't suffer from lag as much as the ones from yesteryear did either.

Lets just say if I had the choice between a stock supercharged motor or a fully forged/built turbo one I know which I'd pick.

RobertM

If you're thinking of gettin' the alfa in England, may I suggest another alternative than Autodelta, cos everybody knows they are overpriced, they've surely upped their game and they're not as bad as before, but still some of the prices are just shocking. Just have a look through their exhaust options, most of them are rebadged Raggazon exausts, obviously more expensive because they're "Autodelta". Anyway rant over

Here's the other option:

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/members/alfa+tuner.html

His name is Gus and he really knows what he's talking about.

samsemtex

Thanks for the replies. While I appreciate that Paddy's engine is very impressive I just find it hard to accept that a 1.6 pushing out 280bhp wont suffer some reliability issues. I'm not sure but I think Paddy might be able to do some of the work himself? I'm not a mechanic and I wouldn't know where to start if something went wrong so I'd imagine fixing an engine like that could get very tricky and expensive. I'd also need to uprate my clutch and add an LSD to handle that kind of power through the front wheels, wouldn't I?

I may be wrong of course so i'm willing to listen to any alternative viewpoints.

retrothis

F**c me :eek:.........Living the dream.. eh Paddy?

--Kaiser--

280 Hp through the front wheels sounds like a recipe for torque steer, most stock cars wouldn't have much more than 200 Hp in a Front-wheel drive car.

(I know the new Focus RS has 300 Hp and is FWD but it has a special electronic LSD and other extras)

Atomic Pineapple

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

280 Hp through the front wheels sounds like a recipe for torque steer, most stock cars wouldn't have much more than 200 Hp in a Front-wheel drive car.

(I know the new Focus RS has 300 Hp and is FWD but it has a special electronic LSD and other extras)

My cousin is putting 300bhp through the front wheels of his Ep3 without too much trouble.

It has a quaiffe diff.

Mik_Da_Man on here is putting 280bhp through the front wheels of his St too with a **** load of torque and it seems to handle it fairly well.

Obviously its going to hamper the car being fwd though instead of rwd or 4wd

JimmyCrackCorn

At that power a differential is a must you will need it to pull the car through a bend. Paddy's engine there looks like a very good deal.

Atomic Pineapple

JimmyCrackCorn wrote: »

At that power a differential is a must you will need it to pull the car through a bend. Paddy's engine there looks like a very good deal.

Haha my cousin didn't have one on the Ep3 for awhile and it would spin the wheels on the line all day long

x in the city

samsemtex wrote: »

I've been giving thought to the idea of supercharging my 156 at some stage. I got the car for a really really good price so I am willing to spend some of the savings on getting more power out of it. The supercharger (including the cost of fitting) is linked below.

http://www.autodeltashop.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_65&products_id=583

Now i know it seems like a huge sum of money to spend on a 6 year old car but I did spend about €2,000 less on the car than I had budgeted for so why not? Autodelta told me that supercharger on the 1.8 should bring it up to about 205-210bhp. Including supercharging the car would cost me about €8,500 which is considerably less than i would pay for a similarly powered BMW 330i and then I'd be stuck with possibly the least interesting and common car in the country (try not to get offended BMW heads). The 156 is imo better to drive than a 3 series and the ride is infinitely better than any M-pack BMW ive been in.

Alternatively another option is to do air intake, remap and exhaust but that would only bring it up by about 15bhp. Another way would be to buy a V6 version but is impossible to get a facelifted 2.5 litre V6 so i would have to go for an older car without the TI spec and more importantly the sports suspension. And with a heavy V6 in the front it just wouldn't be as good to drive. Also the road tax on a 2.5 is €569 more a year so it would begin to eat into any savings on price pretty quickly. So i'd have a more expensive car to run that wouldnt be as nicely kitted out or as good to drive.

As for my car the engine seems to be in good condition with a FSH and 69,000 miles on it. It runs perfectly aside from the usual Alfa trick of drinking oil like Marlboro man smokes cigarettes but it burns no more than Alfa say they can burn. Everything else about the car is immaculate inside and out. It drives beautifully and it really is begging for more power. It handles unbelievably well and its hard to believe its FWD.

Would supercharging a car with that sort of mileage cause trouble? What are the potential pitfalls. Would it create huge reliability issues? Obviously MPG would go through the floor but thats to be expected.

I know there are other cars out there that come with more power as standard but there is nothing out there that looks anything as good as a 156. Not for that money anyway.

been smokin alot of pot lately.?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

tossy

x in the city wrote: »

been smokin alot of pot lately.?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

wow so helpful,you should go public with information like that,how many more useful tips and tidbits of advice do you have stored in that head of yours?

Atomic Pineapple

x in the city wrote: »

been smokin alot of pot lately.?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Please try to be constructive with your posts and add something to the thread

Ferris

samsemtex wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. While I appreciate that Paddy's engine is very impressive I just find it hard to accept that a 1.6 pushing out 280bhp wont suffer some reliability issues. I'm not sure but I think Paddy might be able to do some of the work himself? I'm not a mechanic and I wouldn't know where to start if something went wrong so I'd imagine fixing an engine like that could get very tricky and expensive. I'd also need to uprate my clutch and add an LSD to handle that kind of power through the front wheels, wouldn't I?

I may be wrong of course so i'm willing to listen to any alternative viewpoints.

I think a fully forged, rebuilt and running 1.6 engine with (I presume) a performance head gasket would be more reliable than a stock 1.8 with a supercharger bolted onto it. Also you could just turn down the boost on the 1.6.

Also if the 1.6 pops at least you'll still have the original engine to put back in.:D

samsemtex

x in the city wrote: »

been smokin alot of pot lately.?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Wow, that was so helpful...if you think its a bad idea then explain why.

Otherwise, sod off.

ARGINITE

Paddy147, how much did the 280bhp engine cost to build from scratch?
If you don't mind me asking.

x in the city

if guys want to put superchargers onto alfa 156s work away, dont expect to recover your losses in a year or two, thats all.

paddy147

ARGINITE wrote: »

Paddy147, how much did the 280bhp engine cost to build from scratch?
If you don't mind me asking.

Alot of euro,put it that way to you.The asking price of 1900 euro is only a fraction of what it has cost to build up to its current level.

But the engine is now built propperly and works very very well indeed.Ive no problem paying out for work that is done propperly and professionally.:)

The other turboed alfa 147 has cost a small fortune to build,buts its a totaly different and much more extreme car to this turboed 147.

If I dont sell the 280bhp engine,then Im considering shoehorning into either an old shape (pre 99) Punto 3 door or a Fiat Sciento.Would make for some interesting driving.


Regards.

paddy147

x in the city wrote: »

if guys want to put superchargers onto alfa 156s work away, dont expect to recover your losses in a year or two, thats all.

You dont do it to recover losses.

You do it for the enjoyment of it.;)

samsemtex

x in the city wrote: »

if guys want to put superchargers onto alfa 156s work away, dont expect to recover your losses in a year or two, thats all.

Who said anything about recovering losses? I want a car that looks like a facelifted 156 with more power. Simple as that.

mr c

i would think this idea could end up costing you a bucket load of cash
after the initial cost id say it would be a lot less reliable etc.
surely there are much more cost effective mods you can do to these cars
personally id do a few small engine mods and upgrade suspension etc
whatever you decide best of luck with it

ShadowHearth

paddy147 wrote: »

You dont do it to recover losses.

You do it for the enjoyment of it.;)

+1


Now i think the first post was really old, but the link to that supercharger is still working... now 5k eu for a kit, which gives really low bhp increase looks mad! i see its just a bolt on kit, with no internal work, so it wount last long aswell...


For 5k i could get for mine mazda a turbo kit which will make atleast 250rwhp!!!

Bonito

That's a serious piece of kit there paddy! What would she fit in to, out of curiosity?

paddy147

El_Ganador wrote: »

That's a serious piece of kit there paddy! What would she fit in to, out of curiosity?

All Alfa 145,146,147 and 156 twinspark engined cars.
Also will physically fit into a Fiat Punto from 2000 onwards

Bonito

Right, I'm off to buy a punto.

samsemtex

ShadowHearth wrote: »

+1


Now i think the first post was really old, but the link to that supercharger is still working... now 5k eu for a kit, which gives really low bhp increase looks mad! i see its just a bolt on kit, with no internal work, so it wount last long aswell...


For 5k i could get for mine mazda a turbo kit which will make atleast 250rwhp!!!

Yeah, I've been put off Autodelta by the price and what Paddy and a couple of others have said about them. They are trading off their name and the prices are ridiculous.

Paddy's 147 engine does sound like the business alright but it could be a lot of work. So many options and all of them expensive!

A-Trak

I'd be intrested in hearing from anyone who's gone for a 1.8/2.0 156 petrol remap & filter mods, would they reccomend and what improvements HP they saw?

Also if reccomended, and Irish tuners who'd do the job?