A quick question about The Matrix

jasonb

Hi...

I watched The Matrix for the first time in a couple of years last night. Really enjoyed it, but something struck me.

After Trinity and Neo rescue Morpheus, they go to a subway station and Mopheus uses the pay phone to leave the Matrix. Trinity is about to go next, and she says the following to Neo :

Trinity: Neo, I want to tell you something, but I'm afraid of what it could mean if I do. Everything the Oracle told me has come true. Everything but this.

and the Neo says :

Neo: But what?

Then Trinity uses the phone to leave the Matrix just as Agent Smith shoots the phone handset.

So, my question is, what is she talking about? The more I think of it the more it doesn't make sense to me. Am I missing something obvious?

J.

FortuneChip

Geez, it's been a while, but by "everything but this" she means that she

now loves him, but was told she'd love a dead man, so is assuming that he is about to be killed. I think...

jasonb

Thanks for your reply! But I'm not sure that's what it is. Earlier, when Cypher asks her if she believes he's the one she says

that she does, clearly admitting ( to herself at least ) that she loves him ( as the Oracle told her that she'd fall in love with The One )

And, later on near the end of the film when Neo is in the Hotel

and is killed by Agent Smith, she says she's not worried, as she loves him, so he's the One, so he can't die

So, I don't get it! What is she worried about telling him? What hasn't come true?

J.

P.S. As this film is about 11 years old at this stage, I'm wondering if Spoilers are needed?

FortuneChip

To be honest, I remember being confused the first time I saw it. But I just accepted that it made sense, and therefore it made sense every subsequent time I watched it. I do feel if anything, her line is very vague. I hope I'm wrong and someone can enlighten us further.
Maybe I'll throw it on this eve

jasonb

It's funny, I remember being confused the first time too, it was only watching it again last night that reminded me of that confusion! Like you said, it's very unclear what she means. I took it at first to mean that

she doesn't love him, so she's worried that by not loving him, he can't be the one

, but then seeing the scene where Cypher asks her if she believes proves that theory wrong...

J.

faceman

I thought it was pretty obvious tbh. Trinity's talking about the fact that the Oracle told her she would fall in love with The One. Everything else the Oracle told her has happened, and it seems like this last piece of the puzzle is falling into place because she has to accept and admit that she loves Neo. This ties directly into what she tells Neo's lifeless, jacked-in body before she kisses him.

Once Trinity voices her love to Neo, it's like the last link in the prophecy chain - he must be the One, so he can't die until he's done what the One is there to do. Once that link clicks into place, it's apparent that Neo can do whatever he wants in the Matrix.

Or something to that effect.

jasonb

So, when she says there's something she has to tell him, is it that she loves him? If so, why is she afraid of telling him that? Becuase it then means he's the One? And why does she say that everything the Oracle said has come true 'but' this? But what? The Oracle told her she'd love the one, and she does. So what hasn't come true?

I really think I'm missing something obvious here, but I can't see what it is...

J.

indough

jasonb wrote: »

So what hasn't come true?

he hadnt died yet

jasonb

Trinity says the Oracle told her that she'd fall in love, and the person she'd fall in love with would be the One. The Oracle tells Neo that either he or Morpheus would die.

But as far as we know, the Oracle never told Trinity that The One would die, and judging from Morpheus reaction when Neo dies, he's stunned ( as he though Neo was the One ). So it doesn't look to me like Neo dying is 'expected' or that he needs to die to become the One.

So Trinity shouldn't be saying 'everything's come true but this' and mean 'you haven't died yet' as she doesn't know he's going to / meant to.

Does that make sense? It's funny, the second two movies get so confusing, the first one is meant to be the 'clear' one!

J.

indough

ok i see what youre saying

i dont get why you find it odd that shed be afraid to tell him she loved him though

seraphimvc

cant really remember the exact story but one thing i think OP need to keep in mind that everybody at that time believes Neo is the one, he did show awesome power etc but whether he is really the one or not nobody knows, so deep down everyone has the same doubt. keep in mind this doubt is there in everyone since Matrix1 and morpheus is the biggest madman who is totally really think neo is the one.

assuming the one can (survives and) saves the world ,
but trinity is told she is gonna lose the one her loves,
so in trinity's mind she thinks that 'omg if i love neo'= he is gonna die= neo is not the savior. while obviously trinity hopes neo can save the world since everyone thinks he is. so she is afraid of to love neo/say she loves neo.

:pac: does that make sense?? is woman's brain,they think differently :pac:

Simian!

I thought she might have been told they'd face up against agent Smith and it looked like that wasn't going to happen as she picked up the phone.

indough

ok heres a thought i just had

she said everything had come true but this,

it could mean that she didnt realize she loved him yet and so thought he couldnt be the one, and was afraid to tell him he wasnt, then later on he dies and she realizes she did really love him

or it could mean she did already love him but was afraid to tell him because maybe she was told not to say anything (i seem to recall the oracle telling someone else not to tell anyone about another prediction but i could be wrong)

Mitch Connor

indough wrote: »

ok heres a thought i just had

she said everything had come true but this,

it could mean that she didnt realize she loved him yet and so thought he couldnt be the one, and was afraid to tell him he wasnt, then later on he dies and she realizes she did really love him

or it could mean she did already love him but was afraid to tell him because maybe she was told not to say anything (i seem to recall the oracle telling someone else not to tell anyone about another prediction but i could be wrong)

at the time of that convo in the subway - that were working on the assumption he was not the One, as the Orcale had told him he was not The One, and he had said it to Trinity before going back into the Matrix to save Morpheous

indough

oh right well then i dont see the complication then

its years since ive seen that movie but if theyd been told he wasnt then surely trinitys predicament makes perfect sense?

jasonb

Mitch Connor wrote: »

at the time of that convo in the subway - that were working on the assumption he was not the One, as the Orcale had told him he was not The One, and he had said it to Trinity before going back into the Matrix to save Morpheous

Yes! That makes sense. I was going on the theory that Trinity must know he's the One and she loves him because when Cypher asks her if he's the One she says yes. Of course she says yes because she loves him and she knows she'll love the One.

However, AFTER that conversation is when ( as Mitch points out ) Neo tells her that he's not the One, and that the Oracle confirmed it to him. Hence her saying 'everything's come true but this' later in the Subway, as she knows she loves him, and wants to tell him, but also thinks he's not the One.

That does explain it, thanks a lot Mitch!

J.

Fizman

Saw a few seconds of it recently while on TV. The bit at the start where they call to Neo's door. Only then did I realise that the girl with the 'white rabbit' tattoo is the bird out of Home and Away.

jasonb

Yeah, there are quite a few Autralian actors in it, as it was filmed there. There's an obvious Australian accent when the cops try to arrest Trinity at the start of the film as well...

J.

krudler

Fizman wrote: »

Saw a few seconds of it recently while on TV. The bit at the start where they call to Neo's door. Only then did I realise that the girl with the 'white rabbit' tattoo is the bird out of Home and Away.

Isnt Mouse a former H&A actor as well? he was in Attack of the Clones as well as the guy in the bar who tries to sell Obi Wan "death sticks".

jaykhunter

Something that I've wondered

(besides why the Wachowski bros picked the hairiest Indian girl they could find to star in Revolutions)

The Indian guy is a program, right? He has a wife and child, though. How does that work? He was created to [insert job here] and look like a human, find a wife and child and live like a human, inside the matrix. Or was the family created? How does a program learn love? Or is it a very sophisticated program; that knows it's a program, and keeps it to himself? (i.e. doesn't tell any human plugged into the matrix).

I understand that the film is getting across that "programs/robots are 'people' too"...Please someone make sense of my ramblings!!

krudler

jaykhunter wrote: »

Something that I've wondered

(besides why the Wachowski bros picked the hairiest Indian girl they could find to star in Revolutions)

The Indian guy is a program, right? He has a wife and child, though. How does that work? He was created to [insert job here] and look like a human, find a wife and child and live like a human, inside the matrix. Or was the family created? How does a program learn love? Or is it a very sophisticated program; that knows it's a program, and keeps it to himself? (i.e. doesn't tell any human plugged into the matrix).

I understand that the film is getting across that "programs/robots are 'people' too"...Please someone make sense of my ramblings!!

He pretty much explains that himself:

Neo: I just have never...
Rama-Kandra: ...heard a program speak of love?
Neo: It's a... human emotion.
Rama-Kandra: No, it is a word. What matters is the connection the word implies. I see that you are in love. Can you tell me what you would give to hold on to that connection?
Neo: Anything.
Rama-Kandra: Then perhaps the reason you're here is not so different from the reason I'm here.

jaykhunter

Thanks for the reply; however I'm not wondering why he's meeting the Merovingian, I'm wondering about his very nature; was he programmed to love? Did he learn love? He's aware of his nature (i.e. not human, a program, living in the matrix) was he programmed to have a family? Or are they sentient programs almost identical to humans?

Are programs in the matrix capable of independent thought? (i.e. I'm gonna meet a woman, have a child, and want to take care of them). Surely that's incredibly dangerous? (for the architect to make such beings, they might rebel/cause an uprising etc)

krudler

jaykhunter wrote: »

Thanks for the reply; however I'm not wondering why he's meeting the Merovingian, I'm wondering about his very nature; was he programmed to love? Did he learn love? He's aware of his nature (i.e. not human, a program, living in the matrix) was he programmed to have a family? Or are they sentient programs almost identical to humans?

Are programs in the matrix capable of independent thought? (i.e. I'm gonna meet a woman, have a child, and want to take care of them). Surely that's incredibly dangerous? (for the architect to make such beings, they might rebel/cause an uprising etc)

Errr, its been a while but afaik its because the Trainman works for the Merovingian, who smuggles programmes in and out of the matrix

jaykhunter

How can programs have a wife and child? Are they programmed to love? Were they made with a wife and child already, or are they sentient beings capable of human-esque thought; and so (like a human) lived their life --knowing they're he's just a program in the matrix-- went out on the piss, found a nice girl, married her and settled down! :pac::pac:

I'm asking about the very being of the program's life!

indough

maybe theyre like shared application files or something ha

i think there are bigger issues in terms of suspension of disbelief in the film to be honest

faceman

jaykhunter wrote: »

Thanks for the reply; however I'm not wondering why he's meeting the Merovingian, I'm wondering about his very nature; was he programmed to love? Did he learn love? He's aware of his nature (i.e. not human, a program, living in the matrix) was he programmed to have a family? Or are they sentient programs almost identical to humans?

Are programs in the matrix capable of independent thought? (i.e. I'm gonna meet a woman, have a child, and want to take care of them). Surely that's incredibly dangerous? (for the architect to make such beings, they might rebel/cause an uprising etc)

Without getting too geeky, i think its safe to assume that since the machines are self aware, so too are the programs within. A real life program, such as a virus, is capable of replicating itself on your PC, so its not that difficult to suspend disbelief for the movie.

Either way, the second and third movies are a bit of a mess, but the relevence of the scene is his speech, rather than what he and his family are. Its all symbolic. A little too symbolic perhaps.

jaykhunter

faceman wrote: »

Without getting too geeky, i think its safe to assume that since the machines are self aware, so too are the programs within. A real life program, such as a virus, is capable of replicating itself on your PC, so its not that difficult to suspend disbelief for the movie.

Either way, the second and third movies are a bit of a mess, but the relevence of the scene is his speech, rather than what he and his family are. Its all symbolic. A little too symbolic perhaps.

Yeah; I'm probably just picking holes in the plot. It was probably written just to "humanise" the robots/programs. The whole trainman/nexus schpiel at the start of Revolutions IMO was awful and unnecessary. I felt it was there just to take up 30 minutes or so.

Neo: I just never ...
Rama-Kandra: ... heard a program speak of love ?
Neo: It's a ... human emotion.
Rama-Kandra: No, it is a word. What matters is the connection the word implies. I see that you are in love. Can you tell me what you would give to hold on to that connection ?
Neo: Anything.
Rama-Kandra: Then perhaps the reason you're here is not so different from the reason I'm here.

I despised that pseudo-spiritual crap. Obviously words are representations of their definitions. Don't pretend it's some deep philosophical thought you've had!! :mad::mad: Boo!! Hiss!! :P

MJ23

There is no spoon

Puteq

jaykhunter wrote: »

Are programs in the matrix capable of independent thought? (i.e. I'm gonna meet a woman, have a child, and want to take care of them). Surely that's incredibly dangerous? (for the architect to make such beings, they might rebel/cause an uprising etc)

Firstly, to anyone who suggested that there were bits of the movie that you just have to ignore with suspension of disbelief for the sake of getting on with the movie, I'm sure this is not the case. The Matrix is one of the most complete movies in this respect, the Wachowski brothers were very thorough in all the detail in the 3 movies.

jaykhunter, you are 100% correct in saying that having programs capable of independent thought is dangerous for the architect, the Merovingian is one example of this. This is one of the reasons the agent programs exist - as well as looking for red pill humans in the matrix, they try to stop rogue programs. I guess its possible they might rebel, but its more likely they would just disrupt things – if they rebelled, it would always be possible to just shut down the matrix to stop them. This would kill all the people in the matrix, but as the architect said, “There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept”, any rogue program would know this so would probably just be happy to be alive.

And to get back to your previous question:

jaykhunter wrote: »

How can programs have a wife and child? Are they programmed to love? Were they made with a wife and child already, or are they sentient beings capable of human-esque thought;

The indian guy is a program who wanted to have a child same way as a human would want to have a child, so he made one (you asked how, i dunno but i guess wrote a 'child' program or something). Obviously he was not necessarily programmed to do this (otherwise he wouldnt be hiding the child from deletion) so he was not programmed to love, but was programmed with enough complexity that he developed the ability to love.