We are to Blame for our own woes...

tods

The problem with this country is simple.

We as a nation are weak when it comes to self representation.

We allow our system of proportional representation to be controlled by the material influence of a few proficient families and allegiances in each locality. These allegiances have ties across all sections of public life on a local and then national level...This is no surprise!

We have the collective stupidity to then complain, when the media is full of news, of the continued material growth of these individuals.
The same individuals whom we allow control us locally and nationally.

But, come every election time, we continue to follow our generational genetic voting patterns regardless of the scandal, and corruption that has preceded the ballot. We as a nation allow our own family allegiances to dictate our voting patterns and thus the swing to change is only ever a minor percentile of the ballot......the corruption will continue.

The hierarchical class system is a throwback from colonial times, and is prevalent now in every facet of Irish Society. The past ten years of boom have only ensured that the divide is now wider than before, and people in desperation will look to the "left" for a reform of society...The left offer nothing, only the opportunity that exists for them as "party" individuals to proffer higher standing within leinster house.

For a true change to occur in Ireland, there has to be a watershed from party politics. A new generation of individuals needs to take pride in the role of governance, show true leadership, and be paid the same as the average industrial wage...Only then will the public find long lost respect for what is supposed to be a proud institution that men and women died for...

Well... in an ideal world...

Be your own revolutionary

kuntboy

What's this "we" crap? There's nothing we can do. Be realistic.

Amhran Nua

tods wrote: »

We allow our system of proportional representation to be controlled by the material influence of a few proficient families and allegiances in each locality. These allegiances have ties across all sections of public life on a local and then national level...This is no surprise!

Its a weakness of the single transferable vote system, which leads to a tremendous focus on the parish pump or local issues.

tods

kuntboy wrote: »

What's this "we" crap? There's nothing we can do. Be realistic.

You see "kuntboy" it's that attitude that our wonderful hierarchy count on...
Every single individual can make a difference!

Its up to you living up to your name and telling your local corrupt politician to get stuffed next time their election wagon is on the trail and ensuring that you're mates do the same.

Look around at those people who they would discredit and ask yourself why?

Politicians are in the business of protectionism. Protecting the family's of influence and affluence, Protecting those who prop them in positions of power. Next time vote the minnows, vote those who would be discredited. vote those who don't swear to a party line Or at least take the time to listen why!!!

The attitude of there's nothing we can do is why this country is in the toilet and quite frankly you made my point...

weak!

Welease

tods wrote: »

You see "kuntboy" it's that attitude that our wonderful hierarchy count on...
Every single individual can make a difference!

Its up to you living up to your name and telling your local corrupt politician to get stuffed next time their election wagon is on the trail and ensuring that you're mates do the same.

Look around at those people who they would discredit and ask yourself why?

Politicians are in the business of protectionism. Protecting the family's of influence and affluence, Protecting those who prop them in positions of power. Next time vote the minnows, vote those who would be discredited. vote those who don't swear to a party line Or at least take the time to listen why!!!

The attitude of there's nothing we can do is why this country is in the toilet and quite frankly you made my point...

weak!

Which is obviously going to force someone to ask the question...

So what are you doing about it?

The previous poster does sum up a lot of peoples feeling (not mine btw) that voting for the other guy is not the answer.. The other guy belongs to the same class of politico.

You speak to political revolution.. have you done anything?

alias141282

There is a protest against the bank bailout next Tuesday. Could be a place to start.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0429/breaking41.html

tods

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Its a weakness of the single transferable vote system, which leads to a tremendous focus on the parish pump or local issues.

Hmm, I agree, but not completely, the single transferable vote also can be very powerful. Especially in times where even the most staunch of the party line can waver. Given the times, local issues are also national issues, and the people of this country are right to break the corrupt halls of power.

I believe this country is in a situation where the youth are not only sick of the current situation but also ready to do something about it.
An election where the youth of the country break from the generational constraints of family pact voting will deal a devastating blow to party affiliated candidates, with the exception of the left who will inevitably benefit from a revolt of sorts.

Not that they deserve it, how many labour candidates do you remember kicking and screaming about their exorbitant pay rises?
In my own constituency, labour have proffered a snob for a lost dynasty seat, as opposed to taking a good look at why it lost it in the first place...They jump on the socialist bandwagon the suit the times...

it makes me sick to the core that this is what socialism has become in Ireland...I'll be voting crackpot this time and its not that far off..:D

tods

Welease wrote: »

Which is obviously going to force someone to ask the question...

So what are you doing about it?

The previous poster does sum up a lot of peoples feeling (not mine btw) that voting for the other guy is not the answer.. The other guy belongs to the same class of politico.

You speak to political revolution.. have you done anything?

you're not reading me dude...i don't say vote for the other guy, i say listen to the other guy, i say don't vote for party affiliated candidates...big business interest...listen to the guy putting his hand in his own pocket to voice his views...
I'm a local crackpot here in the sticks, and my views on the hierarchical me feiner society our purported peers have built are well known...

tods

alias141282 wrote: »

There is a protest against the bank bailout next Tuesday. Could be a place to start.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0429/breaking41.html

i'll wear my kerry jersey, might be the only time its in dublin this year

Welease

tods wrote: »

you're not reading me dude...i don't say vote for the other guy, i say listen to the other guy, i say don't vote for party affiliated candidates...big business interest...listen to the guy putting his hand in his own pocket to voice his views...
I'm a local crackpot here in the sticks, and my views on the hierarchical me feiner society our purported peers have built are well known...

Well it depends on who you mean by the other guy..

The other guy being FG.. I would listen.. but they dont say anything..
The other guy being Labour.. lol whatever...
The other guy being the Independant.. Sure lets go back to the sh1t in the 80's where lots of national decisions had to be bought off against by handouts to independants... We can only have a national wage agreement if we build a new swimming pool for the independant candidate in ballygobackwards...

The current system is a joke... but the alternatives presented are also a joke..

Is it not far simpler to hold people accountable for their actions and start forcing politicians to act in our best interests? While we continue to allow people like Bertie to run riot and vote him back in.. he has no reason to change his behaviour.

Amhran Nua

tods wrote: »

Hmm, I agree, but not completely, the single transferable vote also can be very powerful. Especially in times where even the most staunch of the party line can waver. Given the times, local issues are also national issues, and the people of this country are right to break the corrupt halls of power.

I think a party list system, or partial party list system, focuses people on party policies, since they are voting more for the party than the candidate. This would be anathema to parties which roll with the punches like FF.

tods

Welease wrote: »

Well it depends on who you mean by the other guy..

The other guy being FG.. I would listen.. but they dont say anything..
The other guy being Labour.. lol whatever...
The other guy being the Independant.. Sure lets go back to the sh1t in the 80's where lots of national decisions had to be bought off against by handouts to independants... We can only have a national wage agreement if we build a new swimming pool for the independant candidate in ballygobackwards...

The current system is a joke... but the alternatives presented are also a joke..

Is it not far simpler to hold people accountable for their actions and start forcing politicians to act in our best interests? While we continue to allow people like Bertie to run riot and vote him back in.. he has no reason to change his behaviour.

Few certainty's in life...but one is that Berties days are numbered.

Nobody can force a politician protected by legislation to do anything. We are dependent on the genuine willingness of any individual to effect social policy that em-betters life across the class divide.
For this country that means a fairer society with a more equal wealth distribution. The political line is that if we tax the rich more, they will leave the country...I say Let Them leave, and help them pack for they are not Irish to profiteer on their fellow man as they have...

Ireland is full of amazing people who are disheartened with the system.
I agree with you completely on the failings of the Independants of the 80's where a vote in the dail was worth a new swimming pool in Longford.

But imagine for a minute a dail where independants shatter the balance of party power. lets face it labour are socialist middle class blueshirt snobs along with the rest of them and for them to rise from the ashes under the ruse of left socialist change would be a disaster for this country.

A dail with party influence broken would bring a new era of co-operation across the counties...they'd have no choice...the failure to do so would bring the country to its knees...In every community there is someone with genuine willingness to effect change...Its up to us to ensure that they are pushed to do so even at the risk of failure...

50 Independant speaking minds would bring the system to halt and force the change that is sorely needed.

FG - who's gonna replace kenny for the election:D
FF - Christ where to start, even the farmers are sick of em...
Lab - Snobs who have murdered socialism
Greens - where would we be without the polytunnels
The Feiners.... still not credible...too many ties and links to ?:cool:

and the rest, joe will be back, surely the immigrant population will give us a couple of td's, you can be sure there are certain communities that always back their own, and rightly so, the plight of the immigrant worker in this country is a serious one...

bryaner

Lets see you chained to government buildings tomorrow so tods!

tods

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I think a party list system, or partial party list system, focuses people on party policies, since they are voting more for the party than the candidate. This would be anathema to parties which roll with the punches like FF.

Again you're completely right...but a but
It's not going to change for the next election, right?

It's up to people to follow through on their revulsion at the system and find a different way. Whether thats a boycott of the polls, mass revolt or simply ensuring that decent honest people independent of party are put in place to break the party mould.

We also need to break up the buddy system at a local level. For too long people have voted on personality and ignored locally the allegiances councilors have to party national politics and as a result ignore the spread of local allocations.

I'm from kerry, its staunch here. It makes me sick to see the fools we send to dublin. No Names but its a laughing stock really. One in particular the tar mac king has ties to business and political life that are so evident that it beggars belief he was re-elected. His family are stepping up to the throne, and its beyond a joke to think these idiots will continue "not" to influence policy...


Not so serious one... with regard to the politician not named above...

Kerry County Council meeting to deal with a proposal to put gondala's on the lakes of killarney for the upcoming tourist season. The motion was being put to a vote when the famous Councillor pipes up! "Ah tis all grand to have this talk of fancy gondala's on the lake, but once they're there who'll f#*king feed them?"

Enough said

tods

bryaner wrote: »

Lets see you chained to government buildings tomorrow so tods!

takes at least two. one to do the sitting and one to do the locking

tods

tods wrote: »

takes at least two. one to do the sitting and one to do the locking

i will be there for the march on the 11th, nothing like a protest to get a thirst for a pint in the pale

Amhran Nua

tods wrote: »

For too long people have voted on personality and ignored locally the allegiances councilors have to party national politics and as a result ignore the spread of local allocations.

Not just personality but favours - as we've learned, "do small favours for big families" is the trick, to the complete exclusion of national policies on the part of voters. Nail on the head really.

bryaner

tods wrote: »

takes at least two. one to do the sitting and one to do the locking

Sure I thought you had a small army behind..

RUDOLF289

Hi Guys,

great discussion. Not being from this parish (only here for the last 28 years or so, likely to be a blow in for the next two generations), I have been ever so slightly bemused over the years at how politics works in Ireland. Not having a vote in the dail elections (can only vote in local and European elections), I have had some great door step discussions with politicians over the years, hummdingers actually, spending 20/30 minutes of their time. Seeing their faces when after their "sales pitch" they ask for your vote to be told ; "sorry, I don't have a vote" is priceless (for everything else there's Mastercard - as we all know, the credit card bill is overdue and we'll be paying interest on interest on interest for generations to come). There actually was one occasion where I was asked : "Would you like a vote ?"- implying it could be got !

Perhaps Ireland is not all that unique, I personally think ALL politics has the potential to be corrupt. Some countries are better than others. Trust you all understand I am not taking a "holier than thou" attitude, just adding my tuppence (or two euro cents) to the discussion.

I really think this country was done a disservice by the politicians down the years, right back to 1916. I sometimes wonder what this society would look like now if people like Michael Collins would have had an opportunity to make a contribution beyond 1922. But that's perhaps for another discussion altogether

Cheers,
Rudolf289

murphaph

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I think a party list system, or partial party list system, focuses people on party policies, since they are voting more for the party than the candidate. This would be anathema to parties which roll with the punches like FF.

I had a heated debate with Joanna Tuffy (lab) over email about PRSTV and it's failings. She was having none of it and reckons PRSTV is the best thing since sliced bread.

The problem in Ireland is that the parties behave like a bunch of independent candidates. A list system whereby you have to LOOK at party policies before casting your vote is a far better system IMO. A Dail full of independents would be even more disastrous than the current debacle.

If for no other reason I will be voting for FG come the next election to try to get PR List introduced. I believe once it gets a foothold (FG only proposing 20 seats on the list out of 146) I think people will see the benefits and ask for more. I will of course be giving no preference to champagne socialists like Labour. Any party advocating a reversal of public sector paycuts is dangerous.

RichardAnd

Yes, we are to blame for our own woes but don't fool yourself; 90% of people believe that the recession was caused by "the bankers" or "fianna fial". They don't want to entertain the idea of their own responsibility and nothing will change that because, quite simply, most people are idiots.

old_aussie

tods wrote: »

We allow our system of proportional representation to be controlled by the material influence of a few proficient families and allegiances in each locality

And there's the problem, you seen to keep voting the same people back in.

allegiances count for nothing, if the boss at work stuffs up continually, he gets the sack, not promoted or moved to another position.

Politicians should have proven management skills, not the gift of the gab.

Don't you learn by your past mistakes?