first dog

jap gt

lads thinking about getting my first gun dog, i always had a soft spot for irish setters, are they a good first dog, mostly hunt pheasants, any info on a better suited breed, would love a lab at some stage too

DavyDee

Can be a great dog but a bit timid and very very headstrong even moreso than a gsp! Would reccomend a german pointer or a springer! Doesnt really matter what dog you get so long as you put in the time with them. They only end up as good as what you do with them! Its recommended 5-15 mins training 3-4 times a day but dont do too much too soon! Come here most important command everything else will start to come naturally!

elius

Agreed about the GSP being head strong.... Fing beeeeeep beeepp bbeeee ***** comes to mind when you mention head strong :D:D:D:D:D

endasmail

GSP ,head strong elius
hope misty isnt giving ya any trouble:D:D

Dusty87

Im not that knowladgable (sp) on dogs as the other lads but the only advice i can give is to do your research on the breed. A good book. And make sure you have the time. Maybe someone you know who has working dogs would help. The last thing you want is a dog who wont listen.
I have two dogs. One who will retrieve anything. I mean this lad will go through fire to bring a bird back but i was new to training dogs at the time and didnt work on re-call enough. Once I thought he had it ( would come back everytime) i went straight into field work, without still working on recall. Now if he gets the sniff of a bird he's gone. No calling will bring hem back. Pity because he's great at everything else. Hes in the hide until i sort him out.
The other fella is great at everything bar retrieving. Stays on point, flushing, coming back on the whistle. He'll beat the field left and right all day. But once he hears the bang thats it. No retrieve.
The boys say between the two of them id have a great dog:p
I have the whole summer to work on both of them though and have taken lots of advice of people on here.

Every person you ask will have a different opinion on training methods though. I think its what works for your dog. And you

elius

endasmail wrote: »

GSP ,head strong elius
hope misty isnt giving ya any trouble:D:D

Well you would no she's a bitch ill say no more..:D:D:D:D:p:p:p;)

jap gt

my hunting partner has two german pointers that we hunt with, i have him for tips on training etc, but he has never had either a lab or irish setter, i have plenty time to spend with training, would like to hear peoples opinions on which is better as a first dog, i have seen a setter work and they are great dogs

irish setter

DavyDee wrote: »

Can be a great dog but a bit timid and very very headstrong even moreso than a gsp! Would reccomend a german pointer or a springer! Doesnt really matter what dog you get so long as you put in the time with them. They only end up as good as what you do with them! Its recommended 5-15 mins training 3-4 times a day but dont do too much too soon! Come here most important command everything else will start to come naturally!

if i were to describe the complete opposite of any irish setter i've owned i'd use words like timid and headstrong. people who say irish setters are that either have experence with badly bred dogs or are just listening to the myths about the breed. and i think you ment to say 3-4 times a week training cause 3-4 times a day would do neither dog or man any good. to the op there is no such thing as a good or bad breed for a beginner so just go with what breed you like. there is still pups left out of a red and white litter that i recently bought from if your interested pm me

theirishguy

i'm currently doing the same. i love irish red setters but have been told to stay well away from them.i was told that a pointer or springer would be better. Great Topic BTW just what i needed

irish setter

theirishguy wrote: »

i'm currently doing the same. i love irish red setters but have been told to stay well away from them.i was told that a pointer or springer would be better. Great Topic BTW just what i needed

the only problem is it's harder to get the right breeding in irish setters cause there is so much show breeding around

Mellor

If you always wanted an a Irish Setter. I'd stick with the Setters, all very similar, and plenty of gundog breeding going.

The Setters;
Irish Setter: The second biggest, can be excellent hunters, but as pointed out above a lot of show breeding.

Gordon Setter: The big black and Tan lad from Scotland. These tend to get big, I had one and we found it he was too big for the rough terrain we shot. Not nice lifting one out of a ditch. Similarly, a lot of show breeding.

English Setter: Smaller than the other two, and excellent nose. More suited in size for rough terrain. Popular show dog, but its too hard to find a breeder for gundogs. Llwelin (sp?) while officially a different breed now (was a sub species for years), their is no difference from a hunting point of view.

Brittany: often named a spaniel, this is a misnomer and its a lot closer to the Setters. Similar size to the english. Excellent nose. A pretty rare hunting dog (but seen around here due to Mallards having two combined with a habit of taking excellent hunting photos). there are two breeders I know of in the country, both who breeder exclusively for hunting.



As you can tell, I'm a setter person myself. I can't ever see myself owning any other breed of dog. Don't get me wrong, I just like them, they aren't "the best", no breed is "the best". Only the one that's the best to you.
GSP, springers, pointers and all excellent in their own right.
Their is a reason each are gundogs and the poodle isn't.

I suppose first decide on a flushing dog or a point/set dog. And work from there.

terminator2

i shot with a man a few years ago who had one which he purchased from the north, a fantastic dog to range and set ,and retrieve to hand ,if they are from a proven hunting backround ide say go for it ,as for training it, like all gundogs what have you got to lose only your sanity :D

mallards

I had a red setter once, Great dog, I had to give him on to a better home as I didn't have the ground for him. All my shooting would have been over in an hour the pace he went, great dog.

Mallards

irish setter

Mellor wrote: »

If you always wanted an a Irish Setter. I'd stick with the Setters, all very similar, and plenty of gundog breeding going.

The Setters;
Irish Setter: The second biggest, can be excellent hunters, but as pointed out above a lot of show breeding.

Gordon Setter: The big black and Tan lad from Scotland. These tend to get big, I had one and we found it he was too big for the rough terrain we shot. Not nice lifting one out of a ditch. Similarly, a lot of show breeding.

English Setter: Smaller than the other two, and excellent nose. More suited in size for rough terrain. Popular show dog, but its too hard to find a breeder for gundogs. Llwelin (sp?) while officially a different breed now (was a sub species for years), their is no difference from a hunting point of view.

Brittany: often named a spaniel, this is a misnomer and its a lot closer to the Setters. Similar size to the english. Excellent nose. A pretty rare hunting dog (but seen around here due to Mallards having two combined with a habit of taking excellent hunting photos). there are two breeders I know of in the country, both who breeder exclusively for hunting.



As you can tell, I'm a setter person myself. I can't ever see myself owning any other breed of dog. Don't get me wrong, I just like them, they aren't "the best", no breed is "the best". Only the one that's the best to you.
GSP, springers, pointers and all excellent in their own right.
Their is a reason each are gundogs and the poodle isn't.

I suppose first decide on a flushing dog or a point/set dog. And work from there.

good post but have a question about llewellen setters, am i right in this country they are registered as english setters and not seen as a seperate breed. also i don't know of any breeders in this country of gordon setters but i know of working breeds out there similar in size to the irish. seen one working recently that was brought in from norway.

sonofthegun

i got a beautiful red setter in cavan before christmas and before i purchased the breeder invited me up for a weekend shooting over the mother and father who were a joy to be out working with.
point is there a breeders of red setters out there that breed them for shooting if u get a good one you wont find a better shooting dog .they do however take a little longer to mature and you may not see their full potential until they are 3 or 4

poulo6.5

jap gt wrote: »

lads thinking about getting my first gun dog, i always had a soft spot for irish setters, are they a good first dog, mostly hunt pheasants, any info on a better suited breed, would love a lab at some stage too

i got a springer last year as my first gun dog and she is a delight to watch, she is full of energy and eager to please. on open ground she is working over and back from my left and right like a hover nothing is missed. she will do blind retrieves , bust cover like its not there and loves the water. i shot 2 pheasant over her at the end of the season before the ban that she flushed and retrieved like she had bin doing it all her life. sometimes i think she is training me:D
i cant praise her enough she is only 14 months old now so she will be bang on for this season.

EPointer=Birdss

To be honest for a first dog I don't think you can beat a springer.
Honest, biddable & somewhat forgiving for a beginner training as I'm sure it's not trial standard you are working (yet) .

A pointing dog are a pleasure & my preference. I think I am the only one on here working a English pointer (would love to be corrected there) & find them a great dog on all fronts. Great with kids etc & working wise an joy to be out with.
But ranging dogs are naturally more headstrong & independant in my experience by nature of how the hunt. This can manifest itself as giddiness & may take time to settle. You might not shoot birds for 2-3 seasons if not steady where's with a springer I've shot birds at 8-9 months no problem.
However thats not to say a pointing dog would be the wrong fit for you.

If you really want a red setter I'd go & buy one. This is an investment for 10+ years so you don't want regrets by not getting the dog you want to get.You will need to put 100% of yourself into it & if it's one you really want you'll make the time rain or shine.

Commit yourself to 3-4 sessions a week & some basics around meal times & maintain consistency based on hours of research & self training before he/she arrives & a red setter could be a great dog for you...

Best of luck & love to know how you get on...

EP

jap gt

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

To be honest for a first dog I don't think you can beat a springer.
Honest, biddable & somewhat forgiving for a beginner training as I'm sure it's not trial standard you are working (yet) .

A pointing dog are a pleasure & my preference. I think I am the only one on here working a English pointer (would love to be corrected there) & find them a great dog on all fronts. Great with kids etc & working wise an joy to be out with.
But ranging dogs are naturally more headstrong & independant in my experience by nature of how the hunt. This can manifest itself as giddiness & may take time to settle. You might not shoot birds for 2-3 seasons if not steady where's with a springer I've shot birds at 8-9 months no problem.
However thats not to say a pointing dog would be the wrong fit for you.

If you really want a red setter I'd go & buy one. This is an investment for 10+ years so you don't want regrets by not getting the dog you want to get.You will need to put 100% of yourself into it & if it's one you really want you'll make the time rain or shine.

Commit yourself to 3-4 sessions a week & some basics around meal times & maintain consistency based on hours of research & self training before he/she arrives & a red setter could be a great dog for you...

Best of luck & love to know how you get on...

EP

thanks, i have plenty time for the dog i will decide on, we keep dogs at home so there is plenty time spent walking etc, i have never trained a dog to hunting standard but im looking forward to giving it my best shot, me and the dog will have to learn as we go, but i plan on ordering a few books to help out, can anyone with setters point me in the direction of a good book to read

Dusty87

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

I think I am the only one on here working a English pointer (would love to be corrected there)

Il let you know on Nov 1st:p;)

EPointer=Birdss

Dusty87 wrote: »

Il let you know on Nov 1st:p;)

Good man Dusty you on the look out?

I got a Vizsla not too long ago. Any tips? by pm please?

sonofthegun

, but i plan on ordering a few books to help out, can anyone with setters point me in the direction of a good book to read[/QUOTE]

i picked up a great book by Derry Argue simply called pointers and setters some great tips in it and a totally brillant read

jap gt

sonofthegun wrote: »

, but i plan on ordering a few books to help out, can anyone with setters point me in the direction of a good book to read

i picked up a great book by Derry Argue simply called pointers and setters some great tips in it and a totally brillant read[/QUOTE]

ordered that book last night, going to give it a read first and then spend some time looking for the right dog, thanks to everyone that offered advice

Dusty87

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

Good man Dusty you on the look out?

I got that one i was on to you about after. Had him out the fields and he very steady, bang on with the recall etc. I just have to work on his retrieve.
EP how often do you bring yours out for a 'hunt' during the off season???

EPointer=Birdss

Dusty87 wrote: »

I got that one i was on to you about after. Had him out the fields and he very steady, bang on with the recall etc. I just have to work on his retrieve.
EP how often do you bring yours out for a 'hunt' during the off season???

Oh ya sure!:o
I have plenty of pheasant & chicken work to do each evening so the dogs have the run of about an acre whiles i'm doin that.

2-3 times a week I bring em for a run down the river for a few retrieves & basic commands.
I heal up the springer & leave the pointer run. Then visa versa. No pheasants where I go so it's only exercise really. I don't leave em run too long as I find they get very frustrated if not meeting birds & not learning anything. Again it's only exercise. They come across the odd stray cock pheasant & few hares which keeps em interested.
I bring em running with me as well few times a week.

Come September/October I will bring em out to pheasant country to sharpen up.
If training a pup I'd be planting wings/birds etc now though 3-4 times a week.

I have my rabbit population doing well now too so another few litters & i'll be good to go with the springer

terminator2

jap gt wrote: »

thanks, i have plenty time for the dog i will decide on, we keep dogs at home so there is plenty time spent walking etc, i have never trained a dog to hunting standard but im looking forward to giving it my best shot, me and the dog will have to learn as we go, but i plan on ordering a few books to help out, can anyone with setters point me in the direction of a good book to read

"THE ROUGHSHOOTERS DOG" BY MICHEAL BRANDER its about pointers GSP`S to be specific an old book with some unusual training methods ........cant be much difference between training a pointer and a setter;)

jap gt

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

Oh ya sure!:o
I have plenty of pheasant & chicken work to do each evening so the dogs have the run of about an acre whiles i'm doin that.

2-3 times a week I bring em for a run down the river for a few retrieves & basic commands.
I heal up the springer & leave the pointer run. Then visa versa. No pheasants where I go so it's only exercise really. I don't leave em run too long as I find they get very frustrated if not meeting birds & not learning anything. Again it's only exercise. They come across the odd stray cock pheasant & few hares which keeps em interested.
I bring em running with me as well few times a week.

Come September/October I will bring em out to pheasant country to sharpen up.
If training a pup I'd be planting wings/birds etc now though 3-4 times a week.

I have my rabbit population doing well now too so another few litters & i'll be good to go with the springer

might be a stupid question, but i was building a pen for the dog friday and a man that called said it wasnt going to work as i keep a few hens and ducks, he said the dog would get used to the birds after a bit and refuse to hunt, any truth in it

poulo6.5

jap gt wrote: »

might be a stupid question, but i was building a pen for the dog friday and a man that called said it wasnt going to work as i keep a few hens and ducks, he said the dog would get used to the birds after a bit and refuse to hunt, any truth in it

bull . i have chickens and ducks, and i walk the dog's threw the pen on a lead, it helps to keep them steady, you need to be able to control them in the face of temptation. i saw a video of a lad that used his chicken's and ducks as a training aid for just that reason.

EPointer=Birdss

jap gt wrote: »

might be a stupid question, but i was building a pen for the dog friday and a man that called said it wasnt going to work as i keep a few hens and ducks, he said the dog would get used to the birds after a bit and refuse to hunt, any truth in it

Utter BS!! My dogs have super prey drive & will walk past the chickens. They run the side of the hen runs & have no interest. I added a cock pheasant recently to the hen run & big difference - they stalked him day & night when they were out til I moved him. I have concluded that the hens either don't have a game smell or the dogs have learned if they go near them they'll get a clitter! I leave the springer in the hen run with no lead but the pointer on the lead just in case. Only the rabbits which are in there too interest them. Springer is gas off the lead - walks around sniffing like the hens aren't there! But i would NOT leave either in the pheasant run on a lead or otherwise. I have ducks too & same as the hens.
None of the above as affected their field performance!

jap gt

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

Utter BS!! My dogs have super prey drive & will walk past the chickens. They run the side of the hen runs & have no interest. I added a cock pheasant recently to the hen run & big difference - they stalked him day & night when they were out til I moved him. I have concluded that the hens either don't have a game smell or the dogs have learned if they go near them they'll get a clitter! I leave the springer in the hen run with no lead but the pointer on the lead just in case. Only the rabbits which are in there too interest them. Springer is gas off the lead - walks around sniffing like the hens aren't there! But i would NOT leave either in the pheasant run on a lead or otherwise. I have ducks too & same as the hens.
None of the above as affected their field performance!

i thought as much, the same man likes the sound of his own voice too much, you mentioned rabbits, what type do you keep

EPointer=Birdss

jap gt wrote: »

you mentioned rabbits, what type do you keep

PM sent

Mellor

irish setter wrote: »

good post but have a question about llewellen setters, am i right in this country they are registered as english setters and not seen as a seperate breed. also i don't know of any breeders in this country of gordon setters but i know of working breeds out there similar in size to the irish. seen one working recently that was brought in from norway.

sorry, missed the reply
The English and Llewelyn Setter were originally the one breed.
But through selective, and controlled breeding by Llewelin, a separate strain was created. Their are two strains recognaised today, the American export from 1800s and the continued llewelin strain that stay out of the states until 50 years ago.

The IFDB registry includes it as a separate breed, But they are simple a record of various digs. The FCI (who set the standards for all breeds) do not. So the Irish kennel club would not.

So, officailly, it's not a unique breed and would be reg'd as English setter.

jap gt

lads i picked up a lovely setter bitch, 10 wks old, will post up pictures tomorrow

Mellor

Congrats, irish red I imagine, looking forward to pics

poulo6.5

jap gt wrote: »

lads i picked up a lovely setter bitch, 10 wks old, will post up pictures tomorrow

congrats on new puppy, let us know how she goes for you;)

scartman1

jap gt wrote: »

lads i picked up a lovely setter bitch, 10 wks old, will post up pictures tomorrow

Well you've got her now so its too late to influence you.
But in the end of the day a good dog is a good dog no matter the breed.

I had a great red setter myself, a dog, very tough and steady and intelligent with a great desire to hunt. I have a few more since but they were timid, and when i went shooting with friends they were distracted by their dogs. I found that the breed has got very small over the years, very light and inclined to get cold when the going was tough. But still, even these more moderate dogs can give you a great days fun if you work to their strengths. The type of breed is very important. I am not putting down field trial dogs but the qualities that they are bred for are not always appropriate for the rough shooter. For trialing they need to be small and light so as to cover grouse country quickly and for a shorter period of time. They could do with being slower and steadier for a rough shooter.

My Father had a great GSP, who was a great dog to find game and very good in cover, which was very important for us as we shoot woodcock in heavy cover. But he was headstrong, and not matter how many scoldings we gave him he would love to chase hares, and he had a tendency to stick in point. But a very good nose and bar the above 2 indiscretions he was an exceptional dog

But my current dog is a German Wirehaired Pointer and he is on balance the best dog I've ever had. He is as tough as nails, never gets cold, loves cover, will point all sorts of game, from Grouse to Rabbit and is very biddable. He is very strong and athlethic and great to see him covering ground, nice and steady all day long. The one fault is that he has a hard mouth which I could never cure him of. And he is 10 years old now and he is in great shape. The other breeds seem to age quicker.

Regardless best of luck in your sport.