PVC window companies

badgerhowlin

Hi,

I am trying to get an estimate for 24 windows, 7 different sizes.

I have got back some quotes(prity low quotes may i add) maybe there not but i taught they were.
ranging between €6300(supply and fit) to €7000
A rated glass of u-value 1.6

One more company has to get back to me but im guessing they will be in or around the same.

Would that be good.

The companys im looking at is
weather Glass
munsterjoinery
Senator Windows

O im in wexford by the way.

guideanna

pm'd you there

Captain Bluebear

seanhowlin wrote: »

Hi,

A rated glass of u-value 1.6

There's no such thing as A rated glass.
I'd doubt that any A rated window has been installed in this country either despite them being sold as such. Insist that the glass u-value is a minimum 1.1 - 1.6 is frankly rubbish If you can find the money for triple-glazing it will be worth it - assuming the window system can carry the weight.

badgerhowlin

Thats what im going to be pushing for is triple glazing. I know its going to cost more BUT in the long run it will pay for its self, and with the price of fuel it wont take as long to do that now!

martinn123

Captain Bluebear wrote: »

There's no such thing as A rated glass.
I'd doubt that any A rated window has been installed in this country either despite them being sold as such. Insist that the glass u-value is a minimum 1.1 - 1.6 is frankly rubbish If you can find the money for triple-glazing it will be worth it - assuming the window system can carry the weight.

I dissagree with the quote A rated windows not available. A combination of 1.1 u value glass, and 75/80mm thick, triple chamber frames will produce A rated windows. also in my view triple glazed may not be worth the extra cost.Most upvc frames take maximum 28mm glass units, deduct 12mm for 3X4mm glass, leaves 16mm with 2 cavities each is 8mm. The u value of such a unit is marginally below 1.1. What is the extra cost quoted, OK if you live under airport approach as it will reduce noise, but the most eficient triple glazing will be minimum 14mm cavities which is a glass unit of 40mm now you are into aluminium commercial frames or specialist timber frames, which will increase costs substantially.

The original question as to the three window companies, all well established but one has externally glazed frames, which are less secure so compare like with like.

Captain Bluebear

seanhowlin wrote: »

Thats what im going to be pushing for is triple glazing. I know its going to cost more BUT in the long run it will pay for its self, and with the price of fuel it wont take as long to do that now!

Expect to pay about 10-15% extra for triple-glazing and for the windows to loose 20-25% less heat. Use a supplier that can demonstrate a sytem that has been designed to take triple-glazing. You're right to consider the operational cost of your windows as well as the purchase price. Who would buy a new car these days (hello carbon tax ) without looking at the fuel efficiency.

Captain Bluebear

martinn123 wrote: »

I dissagree with the quote A rated windows not available. .

Thats not what I wrote.
From a technical perspective just about everything you have written is incorrect but this is not the forum for a technical analysis. In short you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

martinn123

Captain Bluebear wrote: »

Thats not what I wrote.
From a technical perspective just about everything you have written is incorrect but this is not the forum for a technical analysis.

Wow thanks for that. While this may not be the forum for technical stuff, thats all you have contributed. 20-25% less heat loss, a big claim, no A rated windows fitted, another claim hard to stand over.

My post was trying to give some examples of how standards can be arranged by any company to suit its product, they do not all do what it says on the tin.

anyway thanks for your obviously expert analysis of my post.

Captain Bluebear

martinn123 wrote: »

Wow thanks for that. While this may not be the forum for technical stuff, thats all you have contributed. 20-25% less heat loss, a big claim, no A rated windows fitted, another claim hard to stand over.

My post was trying to give some examples of how standards can be arranged by any company to suit its product, they do not all do what it says on the tin.

anyway thanks for your obviously expert analysis of my post.

I'll try and simplify things for you.
A run of the mill double-glazed window might typically have a u-value of 1.5. Its very easy to get a triple glazed window with a u-value of 1.1. The percentage difference for heat loss is not rocket science.

As for A rated windows, would you care to have a guess at how many windows sized at 1230x1480mm have been installed in Ireland? I'd wager not many at all because the size doesn't correspond with brick or block openings does it. If a window is not 1230x1480 it is not A rated - regardless of any other criteria. As a matter of fact its not even rated.

martinn123

Captain Bluebear wrote: »

I'll try and simplify things for you.
A run of the mill double-glazed window might typically have a u-value of 1.5. Its very easy to get a triple glazed window with a u-value of 1.1. The percentage difference for heat loss is not rocket science.

As for A rated windows, would you care to have a guess at how many windows sized at 1230x1480mm have been installed in Ireland? I'd wager not many at all because the size doesn't correspond with brick or block openings does it. If a window is not 1230x1480 it is not A rated - regardless of any other criteria. As a matter of fact its not even rated.

Not sure of the significance of 1230X1480, you will have to simplify that for me again, however in search of an A rated window I see Senator Windows ( I have no connection with this Co ) are advertising. Look up the Irish Agrement Board website and see Cert No 94/0015 issued to that Co, and guess what its an A rating, probably explains why they advertise as such.

Anyway enough of this technical stuff, the original post referres to cost and three co's. cost benefit analysis would leave me unwilling to pay the extra for Triple glazed. But if you can point me to a window rated, by Agrement Board at 1.1, and outline the additional cost then its buyer beware

Captain Bluebear

martinn123 wrote: »

Not sure of the significance of 1230X1480, you will have to simplify that for me again,

My apologies. Given the advice you had been proffering I thought you had a modicum of window industry exposure and would be aware of what would be regarded as standard operating prcedures - 1230 x 1480 is the reference window for u-value calculations per EN10077

however in search of an A rated window I see Senator Windows ( I have no connection with this Co ) are advertising. Look up the Irish Agrement Board website and see Cert No 94/0015 issued to that Co, and guess what its an A rating, probably explains why they advertise as such.

If you have found your way to the NSAI WEP pages you should read on and you will see that the rating is applied to a window 1230x1480. To repeat, the window has to be that size to be energy rated. If you read slowly you will see that I am not disputing that windows are rated just that any rated windows have ever been installed. Interesting the company you mention as they have previous with ASAI when it comes to claims regarding energy rated windows:rolleyes:

Anyway enough of this technical stuff, the original post referres to cost and three co's. cost benefit analysis would leave me unwilling to pay the extra for Triple glazed. But if you can point me to a window rated, by Agrement Board at 1.1, and outline the additional cost then its buyer beware

I missed your cost benefit 'analysis'. NSAI WEP site has several windows listed with u-values well below 1.1. You can take it as given that they are triple-glazed. No pricing on there obviously but anybody charging more then 10-15% extra merely for the addition of triple-glazing mustn't have noticed the demise of the Celtic Tiger. Potential customers will have though.

martinn123

Wow A pissing competition, ok I concede your modicum is much bigger than mine
I had thought these forums were for contributors to post opinons, but when I read my local paper and see three Co's advertising A rated windows as standard I queried your original comment,

Captain Bluebear wrote: »

There's no such thing as A rated glass.
I'd doubt that any A rated window has been installed in this country either despite them being sold as such.

No A rated window installed in this country, surely this should be reported to some Advertising Standard Watchdog, or is that just an opinion.
my own involvment in the business is in providing solutions in the replacment area where cost is a factor and the majority of customers are happy with a quality product, I am happy to recomend Double Glazed glass`with a u value of 1.1, and do not see the additional cost of triple glazed as being relevant in that market, in the new build area I am happy to leave the discussion to the geeks, who have all the relevant statistics to quote, and can absorb any budget available in persuit of perfection.

busman

martinn123 wrote: »

surely this should be reported to some Advertising Standard Watchdog,

That would be a problem, as was is an "A" rated window?
Anybody can call their windows "A" rated. Hell I could stretch a piece of cling-film over a window and call it an "A" rated window ;-)

Notice the nice little disclaimer at the bottom of the NSAI WEP label
"This label is not a statutory requirement. It is a voluntary label provided as a customer service to allow consumers to make informed decisions on the energy performance of competing products."

It's only value is so that consumers can compare different windows from different manufactures refereed by a certification body like the NSAI

The problem with windows and doors compared to most building materials is that they are made of two different materials which have different u values for each element. As the size and design of the window changes the ratio of frame to glass changes and hence the overall u value of the window.

So to get around this, the rating is quoted for a standard size and design of window, for casements it's a "Fixed Light/Side Hung 1480 High x 1230 Wide"
This is supposable the "typical" window found in the UK or something like that!

Here is the procedure for getting a rating from NSAI
http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services-(1)/Agrement/WEP/Application-Form-7th-with-guidance-notes.aspx

Once you get your "certification" on this window from NSAI or another certification body then you have a "A" rated window!

But once you change the size or the design of this window all bets are off!
You will have a window which will give a different result.
But the certification bodies allows the manufacturer to stick a "A" label on it if it uses the same frame/glass as the "standard sized window"

There are ways to calculate an approximate u-value of actual windows, from simple area calculations to certified simulators.
As for the debate of double/triple glazed, my option is that unless you understand how to calculate (or get somebody to do it for you!) the actual u-value of each of your windows and work out the cost/benefit analysis I wouldn't bother except maybe on any north facing windows.

Also be aware that treble glazing also may have some disadvantages, like less light transmission, condensation on the outer pane, extra weight on hardware.

Regards

martinn123

Thanks busman very clear info.

i have to say comments that NO A rated windows have been installed, to quote Capt Bluebear, while at the same time stating everything I have written is incorrect, is taking the p*ss. I like most contributors am submitting an opinion, no one has to take it seriously if they dissagree.

Captain Bluebear wrote: »

From a technical perspective just about everything you have written is incorrect but this is not the forum for a technical analysis. In short you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

It seems the system needs some serious amendments maybe our Green Ministers should note this.

As a discussion forum I find Boards interesting but if you get attacked for expressing an opinion its not worth it

Pity the original poster has buggered off without a reasonable reaction to his questions.

muffler

martinn123 wrote: »

As a discussion forum I find Boards interesting but if you get attacked for expressing an opinion its not worth it

Pity the original poster has buggered off without a reasonable reaction to his questions.

Everyone will be entitled to post a reasonable opinion here or on any of the construction and planning forums and can do so without ridicule from others.

Captain Bluebear has been warned as to his conduct on this thread.

badgerhowlin

martinn123 wrote: »

Thanks busman very clear info.

Pity the original poster has buggered off without a reasonable reaction to his questions.

Sorry haven’t been around. Not much access to the net.


After reading all the post i wonder, did you lad find out how can piss the furthest !!!!

I can help but notices that you's have only Picked out the "A rate" part of my question to discuss. There was also the part of it been u-value of 1.6, the price and 3 different companies

But i have picked out some good pointers form this post so far


Triple glass might not really be worth it except in northern facing windows, if even that.
A-rated glass is not a-rated till i get it verified.

martinn123

seanhowlin wrote: »

Hi,


I have got back some quotes(prity low quotes may i add) maybe there not but i taught they were.
ranging between €6300(supply and fit) to €7000
A rated glass of u-value 1.6


The companys im looking at is
weather Glass
munsterjoinery
Senator Windows

O im in wexford by the way.

Hey welcome back, with regard to the price,it seems ok but hard to comment without sizes, number of openings etc, the u value question has been discussed here a lot, in my view you should get a minimum of 1.1 in the glass, thats soft coat Low E ( or K Glass ) with Argon filled cavities,readily available, what that does to the u value of windows read Busmans post.

with regard to 3 Co's all long established, however as I said in my original post one Co, Munster, have an externally glazed window,this means the glass is put in from outside, and so is less secure as it can be removed from outside, so in my view only buy Internally Glazed frames. good Luck

Captain Bluebear

busman wrote: »

But once you change the size or the design of this window all bets are off!
You will have a window which will give a different result.

Bullseye.
I think it would be very beneficial to discuss WER given that there is very little knowledge of it in Ireland and the public is going to be subject to some very dubious claims as it gets going. I can't see it happening here given the sensibilities involved but I'll post something on the ConstructIreland forum over the next few days if you are interested.

busman wrote: »

But the certification bodies allows the manufacturer to stick a "A" label on it if it uses the same frame/glass as the "standard sized window"

The BFRC WER doesn't and they have Trading Standards Officers to back them up.

Captain Bluebear

martinn123 wrote: »

Thanks busman very clear info.

i have to say comments that NO A rated windows have been installed, to quote Capt Bluebear, while at the same time stating everything I have written is incorrect, is taking the p*ss. I like most contributors am submitting an opinion, no one has to take it seriously if they dissagree.

Correction. I wrote "just about everything you have written".

I am happy to give a line item explanation if the moderator is agreeable.

Captain Bluebear

muffler wrote: »

Everyone will be entitled to post a reasonable opinion here or on any of the construction and planning forums and can do so without ridicule from others.

Captain Bluebear has been warned as to his conduct on this thread.

You've lost me.
Certainly everybody is entitled to an opinion but if what they are writing is wrong then it should be made clear for the benefit of others. If you read back to posting #10 you will see that the poster specifically has asked me to simplify things for him. He has repeatedly misrepresented my comment about the actual installation of A rated windows despite my pointing out to him that is not what I had wrote and last but not least his language is pretty coarse. All that and I get warned ??

muffler

Captain Bluebear wrote: »

You've lost me.
Certainly everybody is entitled to an opinion but if what they are writing is wrong then it should be made clear for the benefit of others. If you read back to posting #10 you will see that the poster specifically has asked me to simplify things for him. He has repeatedly misrepresented my comment about the actual installation of A rated windows despite my pointing out to him that is not what I had wrote and last but not least his language is pretty coarse. All that and I get warned ??

Dont push it mate. Read Boards.ie rules and you will see that arguing with a mod on thread will get you a ban.

Now lets leave it at that.

ianmurphy

Get as many prices as possible because the high standard of product is basically all the same these days. The smaller companies are better value as they do not engage in expensive marketing as some of the larger ones. But as to after sales service you might not get. On the other hand nothing can really go wrong with a pvc window apart from a unit braking down which can be replaced for next to nothing!!

fclauson

If you want to understand windows U-values etc read

http://www.passivhaustagung.de/Passive_House_E/window_U.htm

BryanF

ianmurphy wrote: »

Get as many prices as possible because the high standard of product is basically all the same these days. The smaller companies are better value as they do not engage in expensive marketing as some of the larger ones. But as to after sales service you might not get. On the other hand nothing can really go wrong with a pvc window apart from a unit braking down which can be replaced for next to nothing!!

I don't believe window companies can be explained as above

Price is only one factor, and value is not only about price..
Yes, marketing is a factor in any companies final pricing, but poor after sales service can be attributed to big and small companies.

With regards to the highlighted text: I don't know where to begin,
suffice to say, it might be better if a blanket endorsement of a window type was avoided! The uPVC windows my house are crap, the lifespan's clearly crap, the U-value's crap, the seals are crap and gales blow through them, and when they are finally replaced they cannot be recycled. BUT I'm not saying all pvc windows are crap, personally I think their inferior to many timber or alu-clad products on the market but they are often priced cheaper