No Qualification

The_B_Man

Hey folks,
Hope this is the right forum, since everyone on here is either a developer or in college studying to be one.

I have a general computer degree. I've been doing support roles for the last 3 years and would rather get into programming. I did a good bit of programming in my course, C\C++, VB6, HTML, PHP, MySQL, and some Perl as well, but it was not a specific "Programming course". I did well in the projects I did, for example in first year I got 95% in my C project. Admittedly it was first year and piss easy but you get the idea.

So, I'm looking for advice from the developers on here. Does anyone know maybe a 1 year add on degree course that I can do to get into the industry? Or would I have to start from scratch? I've no problem taking a graduate role after the course as I have plenty of years left before retirement so I'm in no hurry, but i'd defo rather be working in the industry in the next 2 years, hence why I want the 1 year course.

OR

Do you reckon with my bog standard Ordinary degree could I get a job on the bottom rung of the "programmnig ladder"?

Any advice appreciated.

seamus

A standard computer degree will be fine for a programming internship or grad programme.

In general, all you really need is some basic programming experience which includes some group work - the kind of thing you do in college.

When you go to work in the real world, the way you program is somewhat different, so these programmes are designed to give you the skills and experience to work as a professional programmer. Think of a graduate programme as your "add-on" to your degree, except that you usually get paid

Tobias Greeshman

You could also look into doing a taught-masters (normally a year), I know UCD have one (not sure about Trinity). These courses will normally hone in on your skills learned during your degree, and have you working at a closer level to that expected in the industry.

Having a Masters would certainly help you stand out a bit more when it comes to the interview as well.

kayos

Tobias Greeshman wrote: »

Having a Masters would certainly help you stand out a bit more when it comes to the interview as well.

Strange in all my time conducting interviews what level of qualification you had did sod all making people stand out more. Well not in the good way at least. In fact if anything it gives you a higher height to fall from. In todays market it would give many employers the nerves of high cost or will jump ship as soon as of more money comes along. These were common worries I've heard expressed when going over CV's. Oh and I've seen masters holders not know where the Home or End keys were.

Real World Exp > Piece of paper (to a point at least)

Evil Phil

kayos wrote: »

Real World Exp > Piece of paper (to a point at least)

Real World Exp + Piece of paper produces far better developers than just the experience. Happily the OP is a graduate with real experience at least in industry but not in the exact role. OP you could decide on what you want to do and go do a night course in that be it web dev or C or something. Look out for chances to apply you're new skills in your current role and keep your eyes open for a new job.

I've had a quick google, DCU do a 1 years MSc in Software Engineering full time or 2 years part-time, I'm sure the other colleges have similar programs both at the MSc and Graduate Diploma level. While I don't want to dismiss Kayos' experience, not every company is going to put of by an MSc, especially if your degree is a general computing degree, its just a chance to specialise. There's also the issue of CPD and lack there of but I don't want to start an argument ...

There is also the fact that you could go and do night course in a specific language or get some Java or Microsoft certs and try getting work that way.

The_B_Man

Thanks for the help. That Kevin St DCU one might be perfect to get me back on track.

Although, what level will I be expected to be at to partake in a graduate role? My OO is a bit rusty since i left college about 3 years ago and have just been working in support roles. My industry experience is purely support too. But if graduates only need to know the basics then my current Ord. Degree could possibly get me into it, unless the market is super competitive at the moment.

Night courses are a good idea but if I do one language then does that not limit me to only a sub-section of the jobs? Or is that normal?

Tobias Greeshman

kayos wrote: »

Strange in all my time conducting interviews what level of qualification you had did sod all making people stand out more. Well not in the good way at least. In fact if anything it gives you a higher height to fall from. In todays market it would give many employers the nerves of high cost or will jump ship as soon as of more money comes along. These were common worries I've heard expressed when going over CV's. Oh and I've seen masters holders not know where the Home or End keys.

I can understand where you're coming from with respect to masters students being a risky hire. However I was merely using the 1 year taught masters course as a valid option as an add on for the OP's degree, which would aid the OP in gaining more industry specific development skills.

I did not mean a masters student stuck away researching for the last god knows how many years and lacking basic IT skills.

Draco

One thing to start doing is some projects of your own. It'll help hone your existing skills and it's something prospective employers like to see - especially for someone in your situation.

If I was interviewing you one of the questions I'd ask is 'what have you been doing to get a programming role'. The sort of answer I'd be looking for is 'Well in my spare time I've developing a CMS/mobile app/general app/other in PHP/java me/C++/other which does XYZ and is available via SVN/git/other should you wish to look at the code'. Be able to talk about what you learnt building it, how you planned it out and why you made the various choices (language choice as well as design).

If you do do a personal project please, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, do not build blog. There are plenty of good ones already out there and there is verty little need for another one.

John_Mc

Draco wrote: »

If you do do a personal project please, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, do not build blog. There are plenty of good ones already out there and there is verty little need for another one.

A blog would be a perfect example of a CRUD application, so I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss it. Granted it's not the most exciting but it demonstrates ones ability at creating UIs, designing a simple DB and all the associated procedures and scripts etc

Goodshape

Draco wrote: »

One thing to start doing is some projects of your own. It'll help hone your existing skills and it's something prospective employers like to see - especially for someone in your situation.

Have to throw a +1 to that. Regardless of what else you do, and even while your deciding which route to take, try and keep working on something. Either start a little project from scratch and submit it to somewhere like GitHub or find an open source project you think you could add to, and start adding to it.

Being able to show that -- even in your own time -- you enjoy programming and hacking and building software and you have the actual code available to prove it is a huge plus.

leahcim

As well as doing further education you could also look at contributing to an open source project as a means to getting experience (as Goodshape suggests above). There are many code related roles in these projects e.g. documenting code, bug fixing and adding new features.

There is nothing like tracking down and fixing bugs to give you a grasp of how experienced developers write code (create bugs ).

If you do decide to contribute to an open source project make sure you pick a project that is well known as you want it to be recognisable by a future employer.

dlofnep

I know a few lads who also did an IT degree and felt that their programming wasn't fully up to scratch. They went onto do a masters in a related field and feel it has helped them alot. It's up to yourself - but despite what some have said, a masters degree certainly will help you. Not only from an employment perspective, but in your own self confidence in your ability to code.

p

Consider trying to work on some open source projects. Doing small bug fixes and patches that most people think are boring can be a good way to get exposure to real world programming experience again.

Proof that you can do some coding is key to getting a job, you already have a decent qualification. I'd say pick a language/platform and focus on that for the next while. That's much better than having dabbled all over the place.

The_B_Man

I remember a few years ago somebody showed me a site where it has programming test questions. basically it was like "Make a program that does x, y, z" and they got progressively harder as they went on. Seems like a good idea for removing the rust!
Does anyone know off the top of their head any sites that do this that are good for learning?

Also, I am downloading the MinGW compiler so I'l prob go for C++, or maybe java.

leahcim

Also, I am downloading the MinGW compiler

If you want to write windows applications (excluding windows games) you would probably be better off using a .net language. You can download the express version of c# for free. There would be more jobs writing .net applications than native windows applications.

Draco

John_Mc wrote: »

A blog would be a perfect example of a CRUD application, so I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss it. Granted it's not the most exciting but it demonstrates ones ability at creating UIs, designing a simple DB and all the associated procedures and scripts etc

I suppose my issue is that I'm sick of seeing them and there's so many tutorials on how to build one that I'd rather see something you've had to think about the design and functionality yourself.

Skrynesaver

The_B_Man wrote: »

I remember a few years ago somebody showed me a site where it has programming test questions. basically it was like "Make a program that does x, y, z" and they got progressively harder as they went on. Seems like a good idea for removing the rust!
Does anyone know off the top of their head any sites that do this that are good for learning?

Project Euler is an interesting resource for this, focus is maths programming so it may not apply to your problem domain.

The_B_Man

leahcim wrote: »

If you want to write windows applications (excluding windows games) you would probably be better off using a .net language. You can download the express version of c# for free. There would be more jobs writing .net applications than native windows applications.

Cheers for the tip.
I was looking at some Java, but might switch to that as there seems to be more jobs in Ireland in C#, and my background is C\C++ anyway.

Skrynesaver wrote: »

Project Euler is an interesting resource for this, focus is maths programming so it may not apply to your problem domain.

Ah ye, this was the one i was playing about with a few months back.


Out of curiosity, would i be able to get a graduate job even though i graduated like 5 years ago?

Also, what standard would I expected to be at for the interview? Be able to do loops and the basics and learn the rest on the job, or write huge apps off the top of my head?

I'm leaning more towards a bachelors part time, but dont really have the time. The one year might be OK but I'm very impatient and want it now!
Dont fancy being out of work for a year and living at home either!

p

You'll need to more than just loops to get a programmng job, but you won't be expected to build massive apps either.

You can get any job, as long as you tell your story correctly. The main thing now is to get programming. Start very very small, creating little apps and build up.

Evil Phil

Has anyone actually fixed bugs in open source projects as a means to get into a development job? Seems to me if your skills aren't developed then getting to know a strange code base is going to be a huge task.

It would be better to approach your current employer (if you have one!) with an idea that would improve efficiency and develop a small app or apps that would do that. Don't rule out excel macro's or access applications to get started. It's not always appropriate I guess, you could work in retail for instance, but for office based people its an idea. You could even approach the I.T. department and ask them if there's something they'd liked developed.

p

Evil Phil wrote: »

Has anyone actually fixed bugs in open source projects as a means to get into a development job? Seems to me if your skills aren't developed then getting to know a strange code base is going to be a huge task.

Depends on the project certainly. I know plenty of people who would contribute to OS projects, and that reflects favourably in an interview. That alone is not going to help.

It would be better to approach your current employer (if you have one!) with an idea that would improve efficiency and develop a small app or apps that would do that. Don't rule out excel macro's or access applications to get started. It's not always appropriate I guess, you could work in retail for instance, but for office based people its an idea. You could even approach the I.T. department and ask them if there's something they'd liked developed.

I think that's a great idea. Solving a real world problem will give you extra motivation and real users to test your ideas with. (Even solving a problem in your own life could be interesting too)

Evil Phil

Contributing to an open source project does show an interest in development, if you have the spare time that is. I suppose when you're starting out you're usually in your twenties so you have spare time to burn. (It maybe that it demonstrates a willingness to work outside of office hourse for free! :eek:)

The_B_Man

OK so i've been looking into a few options here.
I've already got my diploma (or Ordinary Degree as it was changed to when i got it) in Computing, which covered a range of stuff including C (procedural), c++ (OO), PHP, MySQL and ASP & VB6 (didnt do any .NET) so is there any point in me doing a second diploma, even if its called "Diploma of Information Technology (Software Development)"?

Or should I just focus on trying to get the BSc, as a Diploma is to "weak" a qualification?

All I'm trying to do is get in on the ground level and work my way up so wont be going for a masters of PhD or anything (:p) but just wondering if the bachelors is a requirement.

p

The_B_Man wrote: »

Or should I just focus on trying to get the BSc, as a Diploma is to "weak" a qualification?

All I'm trying to do is get in on the ground level and work my way up so wont be going for a masters of PhD or anything (:p) but just wondering if the bachelors is a requirement.

The ability to program is a requirement, whatever letters or numbers after your name is secondary.

Take whatever steps you need to become a decent programmer, if that's a degree or course do that, if it's something else do that.

Evil Phil

Get the BSc in my opinion, it's a better qualification than a diploma.

Put it this way, if you have a diploma and somebody of equivalent ability but has a BSc (hons) go for the same job who do you think will be hired? Who commands a better salary for that matter? Qualifications are becoming more important than ever before. Go for the BSc.

ukdirect

Your qualification is sufficient to join as a junior programmer .If you have knowledge on PHP and SQL , you can get easily get job in different web development company . As you know VB programming , you can opt for .net development also. Choice is yours.

The_B_Man

ukdirect wrote: »

Your qualification is sufficient to join as a junior programmer .If you have knowledge on PHP and SQL , you can get easily get job in different web development company . As you know VB programming , you can opt for .net development also. Choice is yours.

Wish I had've known that when i finished college! Although, any jobs i looked at, even now, say the minimum is a bachelors.

I've actually applied for a 1 year add on BSc in tallaght. hopefully i'll get accepted.