Kings Inns Advice

kaawaazoo

Hi, I am wondering if anyone could advise me... I am looking to start on the Kings Inns' track to becoming a barrister in Ireland. I am currently employed in a relatively good job so at the moment would not have a problem financing myself, and have always had an interest in law, especially the role of the barrister. What I was wondering was how tough are the first two years of the Diploma in terms of workload / study? Is it feasible to expect myself to be able to keep my job, but also fulfil the academic requirements at the Kings Inns? What kind of hours is it? How many evenings? Any takers!?

FreudianSlippers

http://www.kingsinns.ie/website/current_students/Diploma/pdfs/EDBrochureUpdatedFeb2009.pdf - Page 4:

The course takes place in the evenings and on alternate Saturday mornings over a two-year period.

subrosa

The diploma has changed in the last year but it's still designed for people who work. The workload is tough, mostly due to the hours required. It can be a very long day if you're working nine to five and then heading to Henrietta Street for a contract lecture. Dont be put off though, plenty of people work and complete the diploma. If you have an interest in law you'll find the course facinating.

jimmylawman

How would the course compare as opposed doing an evening law degree? The degree may be less intense if done over a longer period? Also suspect a law degree would have currency in the wider world whereas the Dip is primarily a means to an end (BL entry)?

Would the basic materials and subject matter be the same? Or would the KI diploma be considered any higher or lower than a standard law degree?

Also how strict are the attendance requirements - would it be feasible miss some the lectures and catch up via private study?

eagle_&_bear

jimmylawman wrote: »

How would the course compare as opposed doing an evening law degree? The degree may be less intense if done over a longer period? Also suspect a law degree would have currency in the wider world whereas the Dip is primarily a means to an end (BL entry)?

Would the basic materials and subject matter be the same? Or would the KI diploma be considered any higher or lower than a standard law degree?

Also how strict are the attendance requirements - would it be feasible miss some the lectures and catch up via private study?

Academically, the diploma is a step-down from a degree (diplomas used to be level 6 hetac and most of them now have become level 7 ordinary degrees whilst maintaining the title 'diploma')

That being said, the core elements of both the Diploma and any LLB/BCL is the same. The law will be the same, the same core texts books will be reviewed. It really comes down to whether you have time to give up 5 nights per week for 2 years, or whether 3 nights a week over 3 years works better for your schedule?

As for attendance, the Inns are very strict on attendance and really enforced it in my year in 2008. I know people in the diploma class and they hear the same- if you miss 10% of the year, you can't sit the exams so think what suits your own schedule best.

In practice, it wont matter which route you take when applying for the Barrister course... both allow you sit so the end result will (hopefully) be the same. And when you come down to the library to practice, no one will give the path taken, a second thought so pick which ever option suits you best.

price wise: the inns is around 5,000 per year (but check the prices yourself) and you get materials printed but you get no text books and you might need to buy some books. The only evening course in a degree form that i now know of, is griffith and fees are around 5,400 - lectures are 3nights a week (Again check this) and you GET the main texts for your own library.

its definately a toss up but to come back on point - you will learn the same law and principles in both courses. The only factor to consider is your time, your energy, family commitments, work commitments, personal time off etc.

Can you fit all in with 5 nights a week ?

Tom Young

5 nights a week is easy if you really want it.

The KI Diploma is of questionable benefit to my mind (including elsewhere) unless you are going to give it the effort required and proceed to the degree. Otherwise do a law degree somewhere else, in case you run out of steam.

The beauty of the Diploma at the Inns is the pass rates and the telescoped timing in relation to access to the entrance examination for the BL degree.

Tom

jimmylawman

Tom Young wrote: »

5 nights a week is easy if you really want it.

I think it must depend on circumstances.

5 night a week might be considered easy if the alternative is watching eastenders or going to the pub.

It might not be considered so easy if it entails leaving a family and small children and driving a long distance each night to attend.

I am sure there are students in circumstances of both and all things in between.

Few things worth doing will come easy ; but sacrifices have to be weighed up and calculations made.

kaawaazoo, you mention you are ok to finance yourself through the studies - have you considered how to finance your way through the early years of pratice? - If you are currently in a good position, will you find it difficult to jump into uncertain times? Not wanting to be a naysayer here at all btw, just interested what your attitude / approach is to this aspect.

kaawaazoo

Jimmy, cheers for the advice. The way I am at the minute is good and what I plan to do is to work hard over the next few years to build up enough of a safeguard for the first few years of practice, as I plan to hold my current job right up until I finish the degree. I understand the uncertainty involved, so it would not be a complete shock to the system as I would have planned well for it. In terms of years of hardship... roughly what would be the average before a decent income builds up? I know obviously the top people earn the top money in any industry, but for simplicity say for barrister ranking 50 out of 100 barristers... if that makes sense?
What are the class sizes like each year in the diploma? Is it an atmosphere of competition the whole time or do classes get on well socially?

jimmylawman

kaawaazoo wrote: »

Jimmy, cheers for the advice. The way I am at the minute is good and what I plan to do is to work hard over the next few years to build up enough of a safeguard for the first few years of practice, as I plan to hold my current job right up until I finish the degree. I understand the uncertainty involved, so it would not be a complete shock to the system as I would have planned well for it. In terms of years of hardship... roughly what would be the average before a decent income builds up? I know obviously the top people earn the top money in any industry, but for simplicity say for barrister ranking 50 out of 100 barristers... if that makes sense?
What are the class sizes like each year in the diploma? Is it an atmosphere of competition the whole time or do classes get on well socially?

kaawaazoo I'm in a similar position to yourself so interesting to compare notes. This board includes many practioners so they may offer some real world wisdoms against the below but I have been doing various background research so I will summarise here my own research to date:

It is quite possible to study by night and maintain a steady job by day, many others do this, it may even be the norm or close to it.

Like you I am fine with the initial study period and would actually look forward to the academic engagement aspect. However I do have some practical concerns.

I understand that once qualified it is exceedingly difficult to actually make a living at the bar. I understand this situation prevails for typically up to 5 years or longer. There is the compulsory unpaid year devilling, but even after that it can be very difficult to secure work for a few years.

Of course it may be possible to get lucky. If your 'Master' works out well enough you may pick up some work that way, also if you have legal contacts to begin with you may find work coming sooner than otherwise. I believe a lot of those entering the Inns now, especially the mature students, have built up a good address book from the previous life, and this is a great help to pulling in work in those early few years.

If you do not have existing legal contacts and you do not get a lucky break I understand you could spend up to ten years just scraping by and even making a loss some years after law library fees etc are deducted. To be honest this prospect scares me a lot more than the study etc involved on the way.

Regards the study I believe the KI diploma is tough going, however it is a compressed time period so there are swings and roundabouts.

In my own case I am coming round to the view of doing a law degree rather than straight into the KI dip. The reasons being a law degree is more of a standalone qualification, there are many places where you can study, the hours and arrangements can be more flexible and spread over a longer period, so it appears more accomodating to someone juggling many balls in the air.

A law degree leaves open the alternate solicitor path also and a choice can be made a year or two in as to which area to aim for. There is also a possibility of developing a legal network in a pure law degree which may include future solicitors and business partners, wheras the KI is solely barristers so whilst they will be your colleagues they also your rivals and not likely get a huge amount of 'sales leads' from within.

As eagle & bear said once you get into the BL it doesn't matter how you got there and again in my case, the slightly longer (degree) route may allow more time get affairs in order prior to taking the 'plunge into penury' ! Even if it is hopefully a temporary blip.

Open to correction and interested in feedback on any this. Hope it helps.

Thinfin

Hi all

I just received the offer of a place on the diploma course in Kings Inns. At this stage I am still not 100% sure it is what I want to do. What interests me about it is the general education and personal enrichment. I do not see myself practicing as a barrister in court, I would however love to work in this area for a commercial firm or on a consultancy basis. Anyway, given that I am lacking the wow factor I am wondering to myself if it is really for me. I know I have to figure this one out for myself, but would be interested to see what the motivational factors were for others who are on / have completed the course?

Anyone else receive offers today?

Thanks for reading.

Jowls

If you dont want to be a barrister, you should really think seriously about why you want to do the Inns diploma. As far as I can tell, its main purpose is to provide a way into the degree course for people who do not have law degrees. If you want to do law because you are interested in it and think you might want to work somewhere in it one day, you should consider if there are other options in the universities or ITs that might suit you better. As the previous poster said, a law degree from one of those places will have more stand-alone benefit and probably stand to you better for any non-barristering options you might want to pursue.