Specific Guidance Required For The Back To Work Scheme Business Plan.....

I Drink It Up!

Hi all....

..I was just wondering how specific the "business plan" for the Back to Work Scheme should be.

I think I might be going into too much detail, naming too many sources and giving away too much information.

I understand I am obliged to send the plan in with my initial application.

This means it could be read by just about anybody without them first signing a confidentiality agreement.

I dont want to sound paranoid....but I have spent a lot of time researching this, and I would hate to give the ball away.

Right now, my business plan has {a} A technical overview {b} a legal overview {c} a 1 year financial projection* and names and lists products, how much they cost, how much I can secure them for, how much tax and VAT I will be paying, etc. It runs to 40 pages, and that does not even include the documents which are included as authority for my observations and my claims.:eek:....in addition to this a full examination is made of the market in question, cultural differences, etc, and how they support my business while undermining those of my competitors.

Is this all a bit "overkill"??

So, if anyone has any suggestions, please fire away, I am all ears!!:cool:

_____________________________
* How am I supposed to give a financial projection? Experience suggests that the business might make anything from €200 to €1000 a week. How do I give a fair impression?

Thanks:cool::cool:

dbran

Hi

For the BTW scheme, probably more then necessary.

But you can never do too much work for a business plan!!!

Go see your local employment partnership and they will guide you. I recall that they give you a template that just takes maybe 15 minutes to fill in.


Kind Regards


dbran

Dixy

I would lean towards as little info as you think you can get away it.
I always think its easier to add more information if they request it but impossible to take it back if you supply it all up front. Include what you are comfortable with to start with and if they need more they will not be shy in asking.

I Drink It Up!

Dixy wrote: »

I would lean towards as little info as you think you can get away it.
I always think its easier to add more information if they request it but impossible to take it back if you supply it all up front. Include what you are comfortable with to start with and if they need more they will not be shy in asking.

That's just it Dixy...I don't want these people to think I am winding them up by giving them too little. I also dont to get ripped off. I simply don't know where the line is.

Can you give me some specifics? What should and should not I give away to them?

Cheers.:cool:

Dixy

I can only comment on this as its something i have just finished doing myself, putting together and submitting a business plan for submission to the local business partnership for approval to get onto the back to work allowance scheme. The very first page of mine was a confidentiality agreement (i will pm you the page) that i insisted was signed before handing over. I also never revealed cost prices from specific suppliers but use terms like " Sale price will be cost+ 25% on such and such an item" and "Due to negotiated discounts our sell prices will be on average 15% lower that closest competitor in the market place"
What i found after a very long talk with my partnership facilitator was that it was a lot more to do with the business idea being sound that with the numbers you can produce year 1 that they were interested in. Personally my venture is never gonna make me a millionaire but potentially in a couple of years make life comfortable but the partnership were happy to see commitment to the plan more than massive numbers and details on every aspect of the business.

I Drink It Up!

Dixy wrote: »

I can only comment on this as its something i have just finished doing myself, putting together and submitting a business plan for submission to the local business partnership for approval to get onto the back to work allowance scheme. The very first page of mine was a confidentiality agreement (i will pm you the page) that i insisted was signed before handing over. I also never revealed cost prices from specific suppliers but use terms like " Sale price will be cost+ 25% on such and such an item" and "Due to negotiated discounts our sell prices will be on average 15% lower that closest competitor in the market place"
What i found after a very long talk with my partnership facilitator was that it was a lot more to do with the business idea being sound that with the numbers you can produce year 1 that they were interested in. Personally my venture is never gonna make me a millionaire but potentially in a couple of years make life comfortable but the partnership were happy to see commitment to the plan more than massive numbers and details on every aspect of the business.

Thank you Dixy, I received your PM, and it looks the ticket, thanks.

Could I just ask, do you have any idea what the turnaround time is between speaking to these people and entering into payment/receiving a final decision?

If I am turned down I am going to go off the dole, form my own company, and pay PRSI and Income Tax.

If it fails, and I doubt it would, but if it did, I will at least have something to fall back on.

Vis a Vis specifics and details, the guidelines which I printed off the net stipulated that a 1 year financial plan was required. I guess I will need something, anything, in that regard, no?

Thanks again for your time and feedback.

IDIU.

Dixy

Times will differ between them all but mine took 3 to 4 weeks between handing in business plan, the panel reviewing it and approving it then organising a meeting with the social welfare local officer to get the scheme signed off.
As for the guidelines you got on-line, most of the ones I found (probably similar to yours) were for business plans designed for submission when applying for business loans or investment. Because of the route you are taking its a lot more relaxed and not as much information is required upfront. I found as I was handing in my business plan the facilitator browsed through it so at that stage you could ask is it detailed enough.

I Drink It Up!

Dixy wrote: »

Times will differ between them all but mine took 3 to 4 weeks between handing in business plan, the panel reviewing it and approving it then organising a meeting with the social welfare local officer to get the scheme signed off.
As for the guidelines you got on-line, most of the ones I found (probably similar to yours) were for business plans designed for submission when applying for business loans or investment. Because of the route you are taking its a lot more relaxed and not as much information is required upfront. I found as I was handing in my business plan the facilitator browsed through it so at that stage you could ask is it detailed enough.

Hi Dixy.

The facilitator can browse through it alright. All 42 pages of it! I have a basic introduction, a legal overview, a technical overview etc.......I then have another 100 pages or so {which I don't intend to show to anyone, yet} with the names/contact details etc of my suppliers in China. I also have Ebay documentation which demonstrates how easy it is to sell the product in question, how fast it sells, for how much, to what sort of buyer etc.

I mean......they can ask any question....I have the answer for it. I have even analyzed the competition, and highlighted the flaws in their set up.

{basically, a Chinese retailer of this product has an advantage- that they are in China, where supplies and labour are cheap. But their advantage is also their disadvantage- they must ship to Europe, the USA, at ridiculously high postage charges. Guess who pays them? Then there is VAT and Customs. And it takes weeks to get here. And could be broken. Who do you buy your stuff from? An Irish guy who you can find at the drop of a hat? Or a guy in Shenzen? You get the point.}

My worry was that this has taken months to set up. People think it is easy...but when you bang off emails, get so far, and then collapse, its no fun to have to start again. But start again you do...until you hit paydirt- a supplier who can give you what you want at a price that is worth my time. I am understandably loathe to hand over this kind of information in a brown envelope.....to a complete stranger.

Thats just the economics. There is also the legal and practical aspect of what I am selling. Why should I tell them how a certain thing is built, and what the legal ramifications are? It took me ages to figure it out. The only reason I would part with this information is because I need to impress on THEM that it can be done. I already know it can be done....but they work for the govt, and the govt. is putting the money up {€196 per week:rolleyes:} so they need to be impressed, I guess.

3-4 weeks is not so bad. In the meantime, I can keep refining the project, until I hear from them.

Cheers Dixy, take care.;)

byrne0f56789

Hope it goes well. The truth is that you will never know how it's going to work until you set up and start selling.

I prefer a simple slide deck for my business plans but you still must have the back up info if it's asked for.

MascotDec85

The Back to Work Scheme form is (to quote a Jobs Facilitator who I dealt with) to show, "that the business is viable and is capable of making a profit."

Edit: My Facilitator has not seen my proper BP, only the Social Welfare Business Pan form

I completed mine a few weeks ago. Went into some detail but not loads. You just have to show that you have considered potential pitfalls as well as the upside.

Be as honest as possible without going into microscopic detail. If the Jobs Facilitator wants more info they will ask you at the meeting which, in my experience, is pretty informal.

I relation to your financial project I'd talk to an accountant who might have experience in dealing with similar types of business or go for the middle ground in Year 1 as an average.

Good luck

I Drink It Up!

byrne0f56789 wrote: »

Hope it goes well. The truth is that you will never know how it's going to work until you set up and start selling.

I prefer a simple slide deck for my business plans but you still must have the back up info if it's asked for.

Hi Byrne!

I have already pre-sold, on a personal basis, some of the items.

I have kept receipts of these transactions.

They were items I myself had purchased from other sellers.

What I hope to do is show the facilitator how quickly, and for more money, I was able to re-sell the products.

The idea then is that if older, second hand stuff can be passed on, then surely newer cheaper stuff can be passed one even easier.

Thanks again for your help.

I Drink It Up!

MascotDec85 wrote: »

The Back to Work Scheme form is (to quote a Jobs Facilitator who I dealt with) to show, "that the business is viable and is capable of making a profit."

Edit: My Facilitator has not seen my proper BP, only the Social Welfare Business Pan form

I completed mine a few weeks ago. Went into some detail but not loads. You just have to show that you have considered potential pitfalls as well as the upside.

Be as honest as possible without going into microscopic detail. If the Jobs Facilitator wants more info they will ask you at the meeting which, in my experience, is pretty informal.

I relation to your financial project I'd talk to an accountant who might have experience in dealing with similar types of business or go for the middle ground in Year 1 as an average.

Good luck

Hi there, have you been approved yet? Thanks for your suggestions and help. I intend being bluntly honest with these people- I hope it is not too honest.

Thanks again.

MascotDec85

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

Hi Byrne!

I have already pre-sold, on a personal basis, some of the items.

I have kept receipts of these transactions.

They were items I myself had purchased from other sellers.

What I hope to do is show the facilitator how quickly, and for more money, I was able to re-sell the products.

The idea then is that if older, second hand stuff can be passed on, then surely newer cheaper stuff can be passed one even easier.

Thanks again for your help.

I'd be very careful about telling them you've sold (and possibly) made profit from things whilst you are still technically unemployed and in receipt of benefits. A jobsworth Facilitator could frown on it.

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

Hi there, have you been approved yet? Thanks for your suggestions and help. I intend being bluntly honest with these people- I hope it is not too honest.

Thanks again.

Yes, I was approved

The meeting lasted 15 mins or so. They will also help you out with advertising costs etc.
Each person has around €1000 allocated so go for what you can get!! They will only pay around 75% of each cost though.
DO NOT pay for something and expect to get it back, they have to be invoiced and you make up the difference

Shzm

Is the €1000 just for advertising alone, or is it anything? I'm in the process of doing up a business plan etc myself, have a meeting in a couple of weeks with the partnership guy.

I Drink It Up!

MascotDec85 wrote: »

I'd be very careful about telling them you've sold (and possibly) made profit from things whilst you are still technically unemployed and in receipt of benefits. A jobsworth Facilitator could frown on it.

Hi MascotDec, thanks for getting back to me. I did happen to realize a small, but I was just dumping personal items which I had to do in order to clear a debt. There was no business aspect to it, it would not be regarded as an "Income", as it was too incidental in nature. It merely alerted me to the possibility of making money in this regard, and so I began my investigations.

MAscotDec wrote:

Yes, I was approved

Congratulations. Do you mind my asking exactly how long it took, and what your personal experiences of it were? You can PM if you want. Thanks a lot!!

MascotDec85

Shzm wrote: »

Is the €1000 just for advertising alone, or is it anything? I'm in the process of doing up a business plan etc myself, have a meeting in a couple of weeks with the partnership guy.

They may give you funding (the €1000 mentioned was ballpark) if you can show that it will help establish the business. Mostly it's for advertising (website, printing leaflets etc etc) but they can also fund Market Research too I think. They will only give up UP TO 75% of the cost for each item though.

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

Congratulations. Do you mind my asking exactly how long it took, and what your personal experiences of it were? You can PM if you want. Thanks a lot!!

The process was pretty fast really. I met with the JF 5 days after he received my forms. He told me at our meeting he would be approving me. Once he then received some info that I was to provide (Tax Reg etc) I was moved over to the Back to Work Payment which can pay paid into a bank account instead of collecting in the post office

dermothickey

It can alo be used for office supplies, laptop printer, etc...

I was approved on meeting the facilitator with reg cert etc, but it took 4 and a half months for me to receive the letter and get paid directly in to the bank.

MascotDec85

dermothickey wrote: »

It can alo be used for office supplies, laptop printer, etc...

I was approved on meeting the facilitator with reg cert etc, but it took 4 and a half months for me to receive the letter and get paid directly in to the bank.

Wasn't aware of that, that's good if required!

dermothickey

Just means I had to keep going in and signing on for those 4 months

I mean ,,,yes....office supplies, free laptop well at least 75% of one handy though

I Drink It Up!

Some great advice in this thread, thanks to all who have contributed.

On thing that has annoyed me is the route I have been taking.

When I went in to my local Social Welfare Department to get some help, they turned me away, but did give me an appointment to see a man the following Tuesday.

When I went in to see him, he declined {politely} to look at my business plan and gave me a list of names, contacts that I needed to get in touch with.

When I rang them, I was told I would be called back. They never did and so I rang them back myself. This has resulted in a meeting being scheduled with my local Area Partnership. For next Monday.

So basically, it has taken 10 days or so just to get around to seeing the people I should be seeing.

Even at that, I have been told that the forms which need filling in will not be filled in until the day in question. In otherwords, I have been told to not fill in anything and send it off, that this is all done under their {area partnership} auspices.

Over that 10 day period, I have had 2 phone calls from China wanting to know if I am ready to go or not with orders, samples etc.

I am not complaining, as such, its just maybe something that could be tightened up, made more efficient.

Once again, thanks to you guys for your sincere help.:cool:

dermothickey

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

Some great advice in this thread, thanks to all who have contributed.

On thing that has annoyed me is the route I have been taking.

When I went in to my local Social Welfare Department to get some help, they turned me away, but did give me an appointment to see a man the following Tuesday.

When I went in to see him, he declined {politely} to look at my business plan and gave me a list of names, contacts that I needed to get in touch with.

When I rang them, I was told I would be called back. They never did and so I rang them back myself. This has resulted in a meeting being scheduled with my local Area Partnership. For next Monday.

So basically, it has taken 10 days or so just to get around to seeing the people I should be seeing.

Even at that, I have been told that the forms which need filling in will not be filled in until the day in question. In otherwords, I have been told to not fill in anything and send it off, that this is all done under their {area partnership} auspices.

Over that 10 day period, I have had 2 phone calls from China wanting to know if I am ready to go or not with orders, samples etc.

I am not complaining, as such, its just maybe something that could be tightened up, made more efficient.

Once again, thanks to you guys for your sincere help.:cool:

Yes the area partnership needs to assess you before you approach the welfare, they kind of give you the go-ahead and help you fill in the social welfare's copy form of a business plan. They then sign it to say that they feel it is a worthwhile business plan. So the business plan you did up with the 40 pages etc that won't do for the welfare office, All they want is the 5 page form filled in and signed off with the area partnership...Tough all right and annoying, but this gives you an opportunity to water down your business plan to bare projections. So the welfare office won't know anything of the more in-depth areas of your business. As for the area partnership they act in strict confidence and deal with these things on a daily basis.

I Drink It Up!

dermothickey wrote: »

Yes the area partnership needs to assess you before you approach the welfare, they kind of give you the go-ahead and help you fill in the social welfare's copy form of a business plan. They then sign it to say that they feel it is a worthwhile business plan. So the business plan you did up with the 40 pages etc that won't do for the welfare office, All they want is the 5 page form filled in and signed off with the area partnership...Tough all right and annoying, but this gives you an opportunity to water down your business plan to bare projections. So the welfare office won't know anything of the more in-depth areas of your business. As for the area partnership they act in strict confidence and deal with these things on a daily basis.

Hi Dermot, thanks as ever for the informaton.

Could I just ask....who makes the final decision here? You mention that I must be assessed by the Partnership people before moving on to the Welfare.......so...who is making the decision?

I assume it is Partnership, correct?

Thanks.

dermothickey

I think it works out that if you Live ina partnership area, they have to give you the go-ahead that your business idea is viable, Then with the stamp of approval its in to the welfare office and they have the final say, as there the ones gonna get you back on to the scheme. I think its more a case of once the partnership people have okayed you the welfare office will look at your plan then.

I Drink It Up!

dermothickey wrote: »

I think it works out that if you Live ina partnership area, they have to give you the go-ahead that your business idea is viable, Then with the stamp of approval its in to the welfare office and they have the final say, as there the ones gonna get you back on to the scheme. I think its more a case of once the partnership people have okayed you the welfare office will look at your plan then.

Hi Dermot.Thanks for clearing that up.:cool:

It's all a bit convoluted.

Why would a department of Welfare office even have an interest in things once it has gone through the Partnership?

It's not as if they know anything about business viability anyways...if they did, there would be no need for the Partnership people.

I can only assume that that once Partnership have OK'd it, that thee purpose of the Welfare is more formality than anything else, i.e. signing off on the matter rather than debating its merits further.

The reason I feel that is because when I previously visited the Welfare, they did not strike me as the sort of people who had any interest,much less any authority on the matter in question.

CHeers.

dermothickey

sounds a bit right all right :cool: