Ecclesiastes

marty1985

I was just looking for some of your thoughts on this book.

I only started reading the bible relatively recently, and I find this book really interesting, mainly because it's so pessimistic and almost depressing. It's well known for the "a time to be born, a time to die" part, but it's really poetic, especially all the thoughts about how futile life is, and about how trying to understand life is just trying to catch the wind.
Some of it is also a bit contradictory, like when it says to enjoy life because soon you will be dead and then there will be nothing (or something to that effect).

I was just very surprised to find these thoughts in the bible, but glad that I did because it reflected a lot of my own thoughts at the time. Just wondering if anyone else has thoughts about this book?

Thanks.

keano_afc

Ecclesiates was fundamental in my decision to become a Christian. I was a young man, putting God off until I had enjoyed my youth. Then I went away one summer to a Christian camp and the speaker gave a message on Ecc 12:1, "Remember your Creator in the days of your youth". I really felt God speaking to me and decided there and then to put my trust in Him.

antiskeptic

marty1985 wrote: »

I was just looking for some of your thoughts on this book.

I only started reading the bible relatively recently, and I find this book really interesting, mainly because it's so pessimistic and almost depressing. It's well known for the "a time to be born, a time to die" part, but it's really poetic, especially all the thoughts about how futile life is, and about how trying to understand life is just trying to catch the wind.
Some of it is also a bit contradictory, like when it says to enjoy life because soon you will be dead and then there will be nothing (or something to that effect).

I was just very surprised to find these thoughts in the bible, but glad that I did because it reflected a lot of my own thoughts at the time. Just wondering if anyone else has thoughts about this book?

Thanks.

I was just reading the wikipedia article on Hugh Hefner (of Playboy fame) One of the photos in the article shows Hugh posing with 3 girls who look like their in their 20's. He's 83 and looking in remarkable shape for a man who must expect to tip off the end of life's conveyor belt in the not too distant.

There is something really tragic about that photo: Hugh looking into the lens with the appearance of a man who is proud of what he's achieved - when many of us, Christian and non-Christian alike would see what he has achieved as shallow and empty. His extreme case underscores one of only two positions a man can occupy in this life:

a) A life lived with God

b) A life lived without God

The book of Ecclesiastes looks at life through the lens of a godless man like Hugh, but one who, unlike Hugh, has taken an truthful look around at both the world and himself. And he has concluded these facts about such a life: that life is both purposeless and meaningless. Which is a very nihilistic view like you say. But then again, nihilism is the most honest position to take if you are living a god-less life.

The book belongs in the Bible because it details the flavour of a godless life. Which is something non-believers should be told about (for recognition of it's truth might well set them free: see Keano's post above for example), and something believers be reminded of.

Enjoy your reading..

Fanny Cradock

I'm now giving Ecclesiastes an in-depth read. Instantly, I'm struck by the beautiful lyrical quality to the opening verses - desperately bleak and forlorn. The first chapters could be written for every person who hauled themselves to the top for the pile in expectation that there they would find it all waiting for them. Instead, they found that there was nothing of substance, and bereft of their expectations, they were lonely and lost. Of course, later in the book we see a new focus provided - hope in God.

Stephentlig

marty1985 wrote: »

I was just looking for some of your thoughts on this book.

I only started reading the bible relatively recently, and I find this book really interesting, mainly because it's so pessimistic and almost depressing. It's well known for the "a time to be born, a time to die" part, but it's really poetic, especially all the thoughts about how futile life is, and about how trying to understand life is just trying to catch the wind.
Some of it is also a bit contradictory, like when it says to enjoy life because soon you will be dead and then there will be nothing (or something to that effect).

I was just very surprised to find these thoughts in the bible, but glad that I did because it reflected a lot of my own thoughts at the time. Just wondering if anyone else has thoughts about this book?

Thanks.

Hi Marty, its great to see you have a hunger for the scriptures. Could you possibly give us the book and verse of what you read to us above? it just makes it easier for us all to find it.

Pax Christi
Stephen

marty1985

Stephentlig wrote: »

Hi Marty, its great to see you have a hunger for the scriptures. Could you possibly give us the book and verse of what you read to us above? it just makes it easier for us all to find it.

Pax Christi
Stephen

I have so many particular passages in mind. The entire book is quite short, and it is all really poetic as Fanny Craddock has said.

"Life is useless, all useless. You spend your life working, labouring, and what do you have to show for it?"

"What has happened before will happen again. What has been done before will be done again. There is nothing new in the whole world. "Look," they say, "here is something new!" But no, it has all happened before, long before we were born."

"I found out that I might as well have been chasing the wind. The wiser you are, the more worries you have; the more you know, the more it hurts."

"A human being is no better off than an animal, because life has no meaning for either. They are both going to the same place - the dust."

"I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are alive."

"We labour, trying to catch the wind, and what do we get? We have to live our lives in darkness and grief, worried, angry and sick."

"Yes, the living know they are going to die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward; they are completely forgotten. Their loves, their hates, their passions, all died with them. They will never again take part in anything that happens in this world."

"Work hard at whatever you do, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead - and that is where you are going."

"No matter how long you live, remember that you will be dead much longer. There is nothing at all to look forward to."


There is also some beautiful advice to young people, which has already been quoted in this thread:

"Don't let anything worry you or cause you pain. You aren't going to be young very long."

Fanny is right - there is comfort offered by having trust in God, but it still has a very despondent tone.

The last line:

"God is going to judge everything we do, whether good or bad, even things done in secret."

Stephentlig

"A human being is no better off than an animal, because life has no meaning for either. They are both going to the same place - the dust."

I'm supposing you take the following quote as a contradiction of what we are told about eternal life? if my assumption is true, then it needs to be said that what the Inspired author is implying here would be the human Body and not the soul, he is speaking of how both the body of a man is similiar to that of an animal, both return to dust and ashes. in the Old testament another inspired author said ( I dont remember chapter and verse, but never forgot the exact quote of the translation I read. ) ''what has dust and ashes got to pride itself on?''

Truth cannot contradict truth, we need to really examine what the author is trying to say, rather than assuming what we think it says, and in order to do this, it is necessary to return to the Latin Vulgate, and then if needs really be we need to return to the greek and hebrew should we not be satisfied with what we read in the pure english or Latin translation.

Pax Christi
Stephen

PDN

Stephentlig wrote: »

I'm supposing you take the following quote as a contradiction of what we are told about eternal life? if my assumption is true, then it needs to be said that what the Inspired author is implying here would be the human Body and not the soul, he is speaking of how both the body of a man is similiar to that of an animal, both return to dust and ashes. in the Old testament another inspired author said ( I dont remember chapter and verse, but never forgot the exact quote of the translation I read. ) ''what has dust and ashes got to pride itself on?''

Truth cannot contradict truth, we need to really examine what the author is trying to say, rather than assuming what we think it says, and in order to do this, it is necessary to return to the Latin Vulgate,

If we want to examine what a Hebrew author really meant then I would think the worst place to go would be a Latin translation which, due to the translator's rather limited knowledge of Hebrew, had to be based on another translation - the Greek Hepaxla.

Stephentlig

PDN wrote: »

If we want to examine what a Hebrew author really meant then I would think the worst place to go would be a Latin translation which, due to the translator's rather limited knowledge of Hebrew, had to be based on another translation - the Greek Hepaxla.

St.Jerome translated it into the Latin, and he was given a good education on the Hebrew but also was very well versed in Greek.

It depends on how much the reader wants to understand whats being said, sometimes the Latin Vulgate can give that satisfaction, but as Pope John Paul II said, we must always return to the Greek/Hebrew to really understand what is being said, I vaguely remember him saying that at some point in my life.

Gregor Samsa

As an atheist, Ecclesiastes is my favourite book of the Bible. A fine example of proto-existentialism. Even though it was obviously written by a theist, it resonates on a very humanist level.

It also contains one favourite quotes ever (specifically that found in the Good News Translation):

Ecclesiastes 10:15 wrote:

Only someone too stupid to find his way home would wear himself out with work

Stephentlig

phutyle wrote: »

As an atheist, Ecclesiastes is my favourite book of the Bible. A fine example of proto-existentialism. Even though it was obviously written by a theist, it resonates on a very humanist level.

It also contains one favourite quotes ever (specifically that found in the Good News Translation):

15 The labour of fools shall afflict them that know not bow to go to the city.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Ver. 15.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif] City. Being so stupid, that they know not, or will not take the pains to find what is most obvious. (Calmet) --- Thus the pagan philosophers knew all but what they ought to have known; (St. Jerome) and many such wise worldlings never strive to discover the paths which lead to the city of eternal peace: like him who contemplated the stars, and fell into a ditch. (Calmet)[/FONT][/FONT]

Gregor Samsa

Like I said, it's the Good News Translation that caught my eye, purely on a superficial level. It's a direct and pithy line.

Exegesis isn't of particular importance to me. But I appreciate the importance of it to others, so I'm not knocking your clarification.

Stephentlig

phutyle wrote: »

Like I said, it's the Good News Translation that caught my eye, purely on a superficial level. It's a direct and pithy line.

Exegesis isn't of particular importance to me. But I appreciate the importance of it to others, so I'm not knocking your clarification.

I just posted it up to give a clearer translation and commentary while I was at it for the craic.

The Good news Bible has been acclaimed by many to be one of the worst translations out there.

ItisintheSTARS

antiskeptic wrote: »

I was just reading the wikipedia article on Hugh Hefner (of Playboy fame) One of the photos in the article shows Hugh posing with 3 girls who look like their in their 20's. He's 83 and looking in remarkable shape for a man who must expect to tip off the end of life's conveyor belt in the not too distant.

There is something really tragic about that photo: Hugh looking into the lens with the appearance of a man who is proud of what he's achieved - when many of us, Christian and non-Christian alike would see what he has achieved as shallow and empty. His extreme case underscores one of only two positions a man can occupy in this life:

a) A life lived with God

b) A life lived without God

The book of Ecclesiastes looks at life through the lens of a godless man like Hugh, but one who, unlike Hugh, has taken an truthful look around at both the world and himself. And he has concluded these facts about such a life: that life is both purposeless and meaningless. Which is a very nihilistic view like you say. But then again, nihilism is the most honest position to take if you are living a god-less life.

The book belongs in the Bible because it details the flavour of a godless life. Which is something non-believers should be told about (for recognition of it's truth might well set them free: see Keano's post above for example), and something believers be reminded of.

Enjoy your reading..

Yes a time and place for every purpose under heaven .
As we move through God's created cyclical universe,we can get so stuck on the bits we become attached to, that instead of moving on to the final phase from where we can begin again, hopefully with greater joy and wisdom to experience with joyful eyes ,not soiled dim ones,the glory of creation ,and our eternal place in it.
Most people especially long term atheists [forthere is a time for that too]
get stuck on the material desire level, like Hugh Hefner,and his kind,and for that they lose the chance to experience 'the freedom of of the universe', which is my idea of heaven.
At the material desire level, if they do not call out for help to pass this time of danger ,and the loss of their soul which ensues, they lose the chance to move into the higher plane,and join the eternal cycle of life.
This is the TIME that the saviour arrived,this is the chance to connect the beginning with the end.

Fanny Cradock

When reading this book I was reminded of an episode from the Sopranos entitled Cold Stones. Tony Soprano's wife, Carmela, wins a trip to Paris and looses herself in the history and culture of generations past all of which is juxtaposed nicely against her life back home. One of the key themes in this episode is Carmela's existential crisis - her stunned realisation that all the generations of Parisians who lived and loved and built wonders and shuffled along the same streets are now gone and forgotten. I think that Carmella would have understood the opening verses of Ecclesiastes.

Meaningless! Meaningless!"
says the Teacher.
"Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless."

3 What does man gain from all his labor
at which he toils under the sun?

4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever

Of course, the book isn't without hope. And I would encourage people interested in exploring the deeper themes found therein to listen to the following talks given by David Robertson who occasionally pops up on the Unbelievable? show. I believe there are 14 sermons in total that have been split into 2 files. While I've only listened to a few talks so far, I've been impressed.

Ecclesiastes part 1 and Ecclesiastes part 2

(Just a word of warning, I had great trouble downloading these files from media share. Not sure what the problem was but persistence eventually paid off.)

Zombrex

I don't know how relevant this is but the Heff is actually a deist, not an atheist.

He is a non-Christian though, saying that he found his strict Christian upbringing particularly the views of oppressing sexuality to the point of not even hugging each other preached by his church and parents to be nonsensical and "abominable". His mother even apologized to him when he was older for not showing more emotion to him.

He is actually a pretty good example of someone turned away from God by religion itself. Though he didn't abandon the notion of a creator, just the notion of the Christian god.

Interesting article on him and his religious view points here.

http://www.somareview.com/hughhefnermanofgod.cfm

mcmickey

keano_afc wrote: »

Ecclesiates was fundamental in my decision to become a Christian. I was a young man, putting God off until I had enjoyed my youth. Then I went away one summer to a Christian camp and the speaker gave a message on Ecc 12:1, "Remember your Creator in the days of your youth". I really felt God speaking to me and decided there and then to put my trust in Him.

Yes I had a similair experience but in my case it was to reject the out and out materialism of the Celtic tiger Ireland. To me there is more to life than just greed, greed and more greed.