Insurance when diving with a dive center?

joeKel73

I usually dive with a club and am cft insured but a friend of mine who isn't insured this year wants to go for a dive... if we dive with a dive center are they covered under the insurance of the dive center? Or should they have their own (dan) insurance?

I've never dived with a dive center so have no experience with this....

Thanks

locum-motion

foto joe wrote: »

I usually dive with a club and am cft insured but a friend of mine who isn't insured this year wants to go for a dive... if we dive with a dive center are they covered under the insurance of the dive center? Or should they have their own (dan) insurance?

I've never dived with a dive center so have no experience with this....

Thanks

Before diving with a dive centre you'll be asked to fill out a Liability Release and Assumption of Risk form, and probably also a declaration that you understand safe diving practices. You should have your own insurance; I assume the CFT one will do but most PADI divers tend to have DAN, AFAIK.

Which reminds me, I must renew mine!

seadeuce

I believe CFT insurance is third-party, meaning that your buddy is insured on your policy, not you.

CFT covers any visiting diver for two dives with a club. Which means that, if you were doing a private dive it could be construed as a club dive for your buddy's insurance purposes.

Not so with a dive centre.

Get DAN insurance, then you are covered to dive and you do not have to rely on a buddy's having CFT third-party insurance to cover you.


Seadeuce

Cipher

Hi Joe, I work for the company that handles the CFT insurance.

I don't deal directly with that area but i'll try and find out for you.

joeKel73

My buddy is in the same CFT club but after 4months they still haven't processed their insurance. :mad: This person usually dives once or twice a week given the chance, including the winter, so it's really inconveniencing them. Many many calls to cft have been made but no joy yet.

Looks like they're going to have to invest in dan insurance...

Benny-c

foto joe wrote: »

My buddy is in the same CFT club but after 4months they still haven't processed their insurance. :mad: This person usually dives once or twice a week given the chance, including the winter, so it's really inconveniencing them. Many many calls to cft have been made but no joy yet.

Looks like they're going to have to invest in dan insurance...

CFT insurance is included in the (CFT) Membership & it is a matter of the Club Treasurer in question sending the cheque with the individual members names & numbers. If the member has received the membership card(brevet) then He/She is covered by Insurance.

If not I suggest you ask Him/Her if they (1)have logged onto to their membership section in the website. (2.) clicked the required buttons (3) passed the required fitness test & approved by the club DO.

joeKel73

Yeah I know about the CFT insurance system, I'm insured myself. My buddy had to tick one thing off on the cft "fitness to dive form", their GP since met and said they're perfectly good to dive now... but CFT are "reviewing it" and have been for four months now. If the doctors are ok with it then I don't see why they can't be, or at least come to a decision.

So anyway they can't get CFT insurance and I was wondering if by going to a commercial dive center they'd be covered by theirs... sounds like they're not. It's looking like DAN insurance...

whosedaddy?

I know that feeling... as soon as you say YES to any of the medical disclaimer questions - CFT will "investigate".. which means do nothing for weeks.. No communication, no replies to emails - nothing...
Which is the problem with voluntary engagements..

Despite GPs sign-off to be fit to dive, while it appears a manual process in COMS to change the status, the medical officer should have the decency, cop on, communical skills to inform the person why its been invesigated and what is involved in that...

I have my own DAN, but club won't let me dive with them until CFT has cleared my medical...

I'm not yet waiting 4 month, but if it takes any much longer to get this cleared, I'll be asking for refund of my fees and take my diving somewhere else.

Cipher

Okay, here is a summary of insurance for active registered members of the CFT.

As a member it will cover you in the following areas:

• Public/Products Liability
• Professional Indemnity
• Personal Accident/Medical/Repatriation
• Third Party Cover for unspecified trailers

Public/Products Liability

• Covers the association or individual members for claims brought against them by members of the public or members of the association arising from accidents for which they are held legally liable.

• Also covered are the association and individual members for claims against them for goods/products loaned sold borrowed for claims brought against them arising from a defect in such a product

• Limit of indemnity €11,500,000

Professional Indemnity

• Covers board members/committee members/coaches against claims for advice given which leads to a financial claim been made against the individual/club or association for which they are legally liable.

• Limit of indemnity €1,300,000

Personal Accident/Medical/Repatriation

• Covers diving related illness/diseases including recompression.

• Repatriation covered. Injured party plus one other.

• Worldwide cover .Subject to excluded territories.

• €1,000,000 cover per annum

• Death and permanent disablement €30,000

• Irrecoverable Medical expenses as a result of accidental bodily injury covered for €10,000

• Emergency contact details will be issued to all registered members. (Service Company No: +44 1243621525 / Policy Number: IBT202/0/09)

• Claims arising from failure to comply with CFT safety recommendations are excluded.

Third Party Cover for unspecified trailers

• Covers members for accidents involving unspecified trailers owned or loaned to members for which they are held legally liability under the road traffic act.

• Covered whilst attached or detached

• Limit of indemnity €1.3 million

Seadeuce: it does cover you as an individual. Your buddy's level of insurance cover does not come into play.
As long as you are complying with CFT guidelines and diving within your limits you are covered.

Any questions, let me know.

Benny-c

foto joe wrote: »

Yeah I know about the CFT insurance system, I'm insured myself. My buddy had to tick one thing off on the cft "fitness to dive form", their GP since met and said they're perfectly good to dive now... but CFT are "reviewing it" and have been for four months now. If the doctors are ok with it then I don't see why they can't be, or at least come to a decision.

So anyway they can't get CFT insurance and I was wondering if by going to a commercial dive center they'd be covered by theirs... sounds like they're not. It's looking like DAN insurance...

4 months-that is unacceptable. Your Buddy should contact his/her RDO & in turn the NDO-at least a decision should be made either way.

Benny

locum-motion

Cipher wrote: »

...
As long as you are complying with CFT guidelines and diving within your limits you are covered.

Not that I'm advocating diving outside limits, coz I'm not, but;
DAN cover comes in three options, and the middle and higher options cover you for any depth. This would come in useful if a person were unlucky enough to die on a wall dive or something like that, whereby they may have been diving within their limits but a body may be recovered from a depth deeper than their limit. Ordinary travel insurance and the basic level of DAN cover would not cover the repatriation of a body in those circumstances, which would be a considerable expense for the family of the deceased at a time when they could really do without it as they'd have enough on their plate.
Sorry for being morbid, but when thinking about insurance, it's not a bad idea to consider worst case scenarios.

annR

foto joe wrote: »

Yeah I know about the CFT insurance system, I'm insured myself. My buddy had to tick one thing off on the cft "fitness to dive form", their GP since met and said they're perfectly good to dive now... but CFT are "reviewing it" and have been for four months now. If the doctors are ok with it then I don't see why they can't be, or at least come to a decision.

So anyway they can't get CFT insurance and I was wondering if by going to a commercial dive center they'd be covered by theirs... sounds like they're not. It's looking like DAN insurance...

Do they have normal health insurance like VHI? Could they check if they're covered under it?
Regarding CFT is it a new thing that it covers personal insurance? Some years ago a friend of mine was injured while club diving and couldn't claim any of her medical costs because her CFT insurance only covered her for 3rd party.

Cipher

locum-motion wrote: »

Not that I'm advocating diving outside limits, coz I'm not, but;
DAN cover comes in three options, and the middle and higher options cover you for any depth. This would come in useful if a person were unlucky enough to die on a wall dive or something like that, whereby they may have been diving within their limits but a body may be recovered from a depth deeper than their limit. Ordinary travel insurance and the basic level of DAN cover would not cover the repatriation of a body in those circumstances, which would be a considerable expense for the family of the deceased at a time when they could really do without it as they'd have enough on their plate.
Sorry for being morbid, but when thinking about insurance, it's not a bad idea to consider worst case scenarios.

It's a vaild point, and not a scenario I'd like to be involved with but CFT insurance would cover the cost of retrieval of a divers body at whatever depth.

Look, it's always good to be well covered when it comes to insurance and DAN is recognised worldwide but your CFT insurance will cover you worldwide.

Just be aware of the exclusions on DAN insurance. Point 14 states:

14. a diving accident or Injury for which charges are compensable under Other Medical Expense Insurance or any services, supplies, or treatments provided under any federal, state, or other governmental plan or law or paid under the Workers Compensation or Occupational Disease Act or Laws.

Cipher

annR wrote: »

Do they have normal health insurance like VHI? Could they check if they're covered under it?
Regarding CFT is it a new thing that it covers personal insurance? Some years ago a friend of mine was injured while club diving and couldn't claim any of her medical costs because her CFT insurance only covered her for 3rd party.

Can I ask how long ago the claim was annR because current CFT insurance covers personal accident as long as correct procedures are followed. That involves correct notification or any relevant parties.

Cipher

annR wrote: »

Regarding CFT is it a new thing that it covers personal insurance?

To be honest I only a recent addition to the CFT and we only started working them recently so I'm not sure what type of cover they had in place before.

whosedaddy?

Cipher wrote: »

It's a vaild point, and not a scenario I'd like to be involved with but CFT insurance would cover the cost of retrieval of a divers body at whatever depth.

Look, it's always good to be well covered when it comes to insurance and DAN is recognised worldwide but your CFT insurance will cover you worldwide.

Just be aware of the exclusions on DAN insurance. Point 14 states:

14. a diving accident or Injury for which charges are compensable under Other Medical Expense Insurance or any services, supplies, or treatments provided under any federal, state, or other governmental plan or law or paid under the Workers Compensation or Occupational Disease Act or Laws.

I bet you the CFT insurance has similar small print somewhere..

annR

Hi,
It was 5 or 6 years ago which I suppose is a good while ago

Cipher

whosedaddy? wrote: »

I bet you the CFT insurance has similar small print somewhere..

Being honest it probably might. What i'll try and do is to get a copy of the policy documents and I can post them up here.

Cipher

annR wrote: »

Hi,
It was 5 or 6 years ago which I suppose is a good while ago

No idea so annR i'm afraid.

whosedaddy?

Cipher wrote: »

Being honest it probably might. What i'll try and do is to get a copy of the policy documents and I can post them up here.

Good. luck. while you are at it - tell CFT to post the whole policy document to their download section.. The two scanned pages are just too incomplete to allow anyone to understand the limits/exclusions of the policy.

Given the more than unsatisfactory (ridiculous) situation wrt to access (read insuarance cover) to the Dublin decompression chamber, I don't have too much faith in any statement by anyone in CFT unless i see it in writing. (but that is OT now)

Cipher

whosedaddy? wrote: »

I bet you the CFT insurance has similar small print somewhere..

From what I can see Medical Expenses has similiar wording:

"However, if in respect of such Medical Expenses the Assured or an Insured Person shall recover any payment under any other insuranec, the Underwriters' liability shall be limited to the difference between such recovery and the total cost of the Medical Expenses incurred."

What would be useful would be a sticky with the different levels of cover and costs of DAN insurance and CFT. At least it might rule out some confusion.

seadeuce

Thanks for the update Cipher

As to that point 14 mentioned, the message is that if you do have a dive-related accident and are covered by DAN, whatever you do DO NOT MENTION that you have alternative insurance cover - VHI/Aviva/etc.

We were told that on a trip many years ago. To do so would frustrate the claim through DAN as they would seek communication/clarification from your other insurance provider. This could severely affect the efficiency of service required by you from DAN for your accident.


Seadeuce

locum-motion

Cipher wrote: »

...14. a diving accident or Injury for which charges are compensable under Other Medical Expense Insurance or any services, supplies, or treatments provided under any federal, state, or other governmental plan or law or paid under the Workers Compensation or Occupational Disease Act or Laws.

That's a standard enough clause in virtually all insurance policies. It means that you can't make a profit off an accident/claim by claiming a total of say €6,000 (€2,000 off each of three different policies) for a claim that costs €2,000.

Cipher

locum-motion wrote: »

That's a standard enough clause in virtually all insurance policies. It means that you can't make a profit off an accident/claim by claiming a total of say €6,000 (€2,000 off each of three different policies) for a claim that costs €2,000.

True, the only thing is, as standard people here only buy 1 car policy and 1 house policy etc.

But a large amount of people purchase two scuba policies (CFT Members & DAN policies). Thats where the problem lies if a claim arises.