Why is Cheating endemic in this sport?

fatboypee

Having finished a youth season coaching a youth team and I have to say, I'm pretty disillusioned really. Upon many occasions during the season we had cause to travel for matches.

Upon arriving and playing, it became extremely clear that short of an emphatic on-the-pitch, unequivocal victory against our opposition, we would never win the game. I could list ad-nauseum the incidents that occurred, however there is a larger point here and I would like people's opinions on the following:

What victory is there, in an unfair win ?

I'm extremely naive (it seems) as discussions with others indicate that I have to "get with the program" as everyones "doing it" ?

For me, I'm trying to get our lads to play the game well and fairly, yet, when met with cynical cheating at almost every level I seem to be forever being faced (post-match) by angry lads asking why they should bother ?

I have sent numerous letters of complaint where appropriate but it appears this culture is far too ingrained, to the point where alot of people see cheating in some forms as legitimate.

Opinions appreciated.

irishbucsfan

Can you give a couple of examples of what you feel constitutes cheating?

fatboypee

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Can you give a couple of examples of what you feel constitutes cheating?

In general (and not an exhaustive list by any means):

• Cynical (yet unpunished) off the ball player take-outs
• clearly inequitable refereeing decisions giving undue advantage
• Extra time / cynical penalising in an attempt to secure a last gasp score to win a game.

PhatPiggins

fatboypee wrote: »

Having finished a youth season coaching a youth team and I have to say, I'm pretty disillusioned really. Upon many occasions during the season we had cause to travel for matches.

Upon arriving and playing, it became extremely clear that short of an emphatic on-the-pitch, unequivocal victory against our opposition, we would never win the game. I could list ad-nauseum the incidents that occurred, however there is a larger point here and I would like people's opinions on the following:

What victory is there, in an unfair win ?

I'm extremely naive (it seems) as discussions with others indicate that I have to "get with the program" as everyones "doing it" ?

For me, I'm trying to get our lads to play the game well and fairly, yet, when met with cynical cheating at almost every level I seem to be forever being faced (post-match) by angry lads asking why they should bother ?

I have sent numerous letters of complaint where appropriate but it appears this culture is far too ingrained, to the point where alot of people see cheating in some forms as legitimate.

Opinions appreciated.

There is a seperate forum for soccer

irishbucsfan

fatboypee wrote: »

In general (and not an exhaustive list by any means):

• Cynical (yet unpunished) off the ball player take-outs
• clearly inequitable refereeing decisions giving undue advantage
• Extra time / cynical penalising in an attempt to secure a last gasp score to win a game.

Refereeing performances are sometimes very frustrating, and I've been on the wrong side of a couple of truly woeful displays this season. I believe that this comes down to incompetence, rather than a willing attempt to throw a game in a particular direction. I've never seen any element of cheating from branch referees that I can remember.

Taking players out off the ball is against the rules, and if picked up by the referee it will be penalised. The problem is it's becoming a bit of a ninja talent and thus its getting harder for referees to pick up. There's not much you can do about it as a coach apart from explain to your players that its going to happen. It's a part of the game now, because it's becoming impossible to exclude it.

fatboypee

I'm afraid I'm being deliberately a bit vague on my examples as I'm not the only coach in our club and would not wish to put either the club or the coaches in any sort of difficult position by putting fact or opinion on a public forum, however, whereas I would agree with your point on incompetence on the part of refs but it goes deeper than just reffing where this season there have been several times where we have experienced cheating at team-level, that is to say where coaches have blatantly instructed their players to do illegal stuff.

Part of the issue with this is that our team often plays development games / friendlies where the ref is not branch accredited and its led to some God-Awful scenes to be honest, hence my question being based more out of ethics than anything else in that, if your team is good enough to win the game fairly, why cheat ? and if not, what does it teach the kids to give them a victory that you've orchestrated ?


I personally see no value in cheating on an individual or a team basis in ANY situation, but then, I'm labelled as naive here and wanted to know people's opinions..

Tim Robbins

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Refereeing performances are sometimes very frustrating, and I've been on the wrong side of a couple of truly woeful displays this season. I believe that this comes down to incompetence, rather than a willing attempt to throw a game in a particular direction. I've never seen any element of cheating from branch referees that I can remember.

Taking players out off the ball is against the rules, and if picked up by the referee it will be penalised. The problem is it's becoming a bit of a ninja talent and thus its getting harder for referees to pick up. There's not much you can do about it as a coach apart from explain to your players that its going to happen. It's a part of the game now, because it's becoming impossible to exclude it.

Throwing in my comments as a ref here...

If you are going to be a decent ref you need to be training twice a week. If you are training twice a week you naturally only to ref games where players are training twice a week.

Unfortunately, this means that youths, J4 etc draw the short straw. I say this as an x - youths and J4 player and someone who refs a lot of games at those levels.

Now there are some great refs doing J4 but the reason why they are good, is because they train. Then if they don't move up, they give it up. Think about it. Training twice a week and then giving up 5 hours of your weekend to travel to a game, ref it and come home.

There's an argument that refs should be paid. As they are in Soccer and GAA.
This would encourage more lads to keep going. And improve the quality.

Tim Robbins

fatboypee wrote: »

I personally see no value in cheating on an individual or a team basis in ANY situation, but then, I'm labelled as naive here and wanted to know people's opinions..

I agree with you. You could work the system a bit more. Get onto your RDO?

For home games, you pick the refs so there should be no issue there.

JustinDee

fatboypee wrote: »

I personally see no value in cheating on an individual or a team basis in ANY situation, but then, I'm labelled as naive here and wanted to know people's opinions..

You're only naive to someone who believes that anything must be done in order to win.

Yes, there is cheating, plenty of it with plenty of scope for more too.
There's only so much an official or set of officials can see and I see refs doing what can only be their best.

On the plus side, the game has a tradition of respect for the official. Were this not the case as in various sports, it would be a total mess.

LeeroyJones

Without getting overly philosophical I believe the problem is down to society.
In todays world glory is valued higher than dignity. It's not a rugby thing, soccer thing, GAA thing etc.

to be fair to the authorities in Rugby, there's the TMO, citing and, as mentioned before, a respect for the referee and his decisions. What else can be done?

fatboypee

The fundamental issue is the below-the-radar culture that I feel is implemented to gain advantage. At professional and senior levels there are procedures and practices in place to 'catch' cheats (TMO etc).

My point is that the culture is in place to 'Get Away' with whatever can go undetected.

This, to me is cynical and ill-placed, yet I am continuously told to 'cop on', 'get real' or, 'this is the modern game'.

My last point on this is that THIS IS WHAT clubs are teaching kids to do, so we can hardly expect anything other than to have to improve on our detection techniques ??

A very bleak future if so...

toomevara

Professional Rugby Union is essentially unrefereeable, thats the massive elephant in the room. Its fundamentally an amateur sport, originally steeped in a corinthian ethos, and when it remained such it was manageable. The personal ethics of most players and the games general ethos/emphasis on fairplay and respect mitigated against the more egregious examples of gamesmanship and eejitry which are depressingly common these days and in the amateur era the game was to a large extent self-policing.

When you get professional rugby players actively looking for yellow cards for their opponents from refs, as I've seen on a few occasions in different comps this year, you know the game is heading down a slippery slope. As it is its far too complex for one man/woman to ref effectively.

Peter B

I understand where the OP is coming from. It is worth noting that we in Ireland have among the highest level of cheating in comparasion to other nations. Apparently at the international referee meetings they show a huge number of videos of Ireland, Munster and Leinster to show examples of cheating. Maybe this has filtered down to club level and underage level.

Many our Olympic medalists have been done for cheating. Also amateur golf is ruined by the huge levels of cheating in the sport.

I am involved in a sport where there is self policing for rule infringements which competitors challenge each other and then an outside referee is used if the person in the wrong does not admit guilt. They play this in the US and in most cases there is no need for a referee as the persons in the wrong admit they're wrong and take their penalty. In Ireland there is very rarely any admission of guilt and the situation then gets handed over to the referee to decide on who receives the penalty. The results then get blamed on the referees for making the "wrong" call as opposed to the person in the wrong making the infringement in the first place.

Cheating is rampant in Ireland throughout sport and even in other areas. I've even come across a few fixed charity raffles.

Morgen Parra was right, we are very good cheats and we do often get away with it.

fatboypee

Peter B wrote: »

...... Apparently at the international referee meetings they show a huge number of videos of Ireland, Munster and Leinster to show examples of cheating. .....Maybe this has filtered down to club level and underage level.

This is my point though, it's not filtered down as much as filtered up ?! This is what IS taught at youth and underage levels. This is an insidious endemic culture that has become a foundation of a game that was originally based on honour and fair play.

All our courses we go on for youth rugby all ram home "you coach kids who play Rugby". I think this should have an addendum now to "you coach kids who play Rugby, to cheat and get away with it and oh, if they don't look like they're going to win, you get some officials on your side who will ensure that they do"...

anonymous_joe

People like to win. Indeed, the entire nature of team sports is based upon winning. It's not about being part of a team, it's all about winning as a team. People often forget that.

If I was playing a match, and I've just tackled an opposition player, and know my defence isn't aligned, of course I'll lie across the ball to stop the scrum-half. This can be applied to any situation.

As Tim said, rugby's not really reffable, it's too complicated, and the importance of winning is such that no player can really not cheat, if the opportunity presents itself.

randomname2005

As a former coach and referee (schools and J3/4 level), Ill add my 2c to this conversation. I completly agree with what the OP said, and it is frustrating to take teams on trips where the opposition can do whatever they want on the pitch.

I think the levels of cheating arise for different reasons at different levels.

At schools, especially for students beginning rugby, the home coach will often turn a blind eye to make sure their students win so they will look good with a good win/loss ratio and so that the kids will feel good by winning. Most of the kids probably haven't developed enough rugby knowledge to know when their coach is winning games for them and don't know when their coach is letting them away with offsides but penalising the others for doing less. There is very little incentive for the home coach to referee properly (if they indeed know how to ref properly) as they know their team will not be refereed well in the return fixture. Also, when people are beginning any sport, their knowledge of the rules and their skills are not highly developed, so cheating comes from a lack of knowledge and not through anything too intentional (IMHO).

For older/more experienced players, the home club/school ref still has the same motivation, however the players become more cynical with the 'must win at all costs' attituted expressed by another poster. Sports people will always try to bend the rules to their advantage and it is up to the governing bodies and referees to ensure that this isn't done. Any advantage that they can get which helps them win they will take.

This is not just a problem in Rugby, but most sports and most competitive aspects of society.

As an aside, when I took a schools team to Wales, I found out that anyone who wants to ref a match (even at u13 level) must have taken a referring course, which is a great idea and something that should be looked at here.

toomevara

The NRL have been running two refs for the last two seasons in Aussie RL and the game has benefitted hugely. One ref runs the line, keeps teams onside and the other watches the play the ball. The game is faster, more exciting to watch and cleaner since the advent of the two ref system.

RU could do worse than trial it I reckon. One ref following the ball, another keeping an eye on other aspects of play such as offside etc...

fatboypee

As an aside, when I took a schools team to Wales, I found out that anyone who wants to ref a match (even at u13 level) must have taken a referring course, which is a great idea and something that should be looked at here.

This is in force here at junior / youth level with the implementation of the Associate Referees course and registration scheme. Yet, where we play our Rugby, it appears official 'rules' are not adhered to with any great interest and a case in point one of the acclaimed "fully qualified" refs in our last outing allowed his team to drop-kick conversions ?!? .....

Anecdotally I was on a development course back in November of last year where one of the other coaches attending got into an argument with the guys running it over a technicality (these are all branch coaches) and having had the rule explained at least twice replied with "yeah yeah yeah, you're both wrong"....

OK, thats inidividuals I suppose but it does give an example of the arrogance and bull-headedness that pervades coaching at my level at least and its not too-far a stretch to see how they approach games if this is the case.

hardCopy

Yes. Some level of cheating is defintely part of the game.

Even in school I was always taught to 'play the ref'. That could mean lying on the ball, breaking early from the scrum or hitting the outhalf after he kicks. I've always seen it as part of rugby and not really a problem.

toomevara

hardCopy wrote: »

Even in school I was always taught to 'play the ref'. That could mean lying on the ball, breaking early from the scrum or hitting the outhalf after he kicks. I've always seen it as part of rugby and not really a problem.

Nothing wrong with that, its like the difference between tax 'evasion' and tax 'avoidance'....but what concerns me of late is the appalling and brazen gamesmanship thats creeping into the game....Players are now doing things on the field, as a matter of course, that would have been unthinkable a decade ago.

fatboypee

Yes. Some level of cheating is defintely part of the game.

Even in school I was always taught to 'play the ref'. That could mean lying on the ball, breaking early from the scrum or hitting the outhalf after he kicks. I've always seen it as part of rugby and not really a problem.

Agreed. At an individual level it is to be expected (yet in my view not encouraged), but my irritation is directed more at institutional level of cheating where the coaches will both teach lads to do this and more importantly, orchestrate illegal play and / or manipulate the game (i.e. dodgy reffing, telling little johnny to go-take-out the big lad who is scoring all the points etc etc).

anonymous_joe

toomevara wrote: »

Nothing wrong with that, its like the difference between tax 'evasion' and tax 'avoidance'....but what concerns me of late is the appalling and brazen gamesmanship thats creeping into the game....Players are now doing things on the field, as a matter of course, that would have been unthinkable a decade ago.

Which is when it all went pro.

Professionals take cheating in any sport to a new level. And they're good at it.

I've watched a lot of rugby over the years, and there are a lot of tricks, late hits, lying over the ball, gouging, etc, that are not at all uncommon. Throw in the whole 'win win win' and it makes sense.

Refs can only see so much, following the RL model (/shudder :pac:) might not be a bad shout.

andrewdcs

It's the debate, at minors level, we all had when professionalism came in. Rugby is a hard game, and "getting away with it" is a part of it, in fact, the chaos and grind are why I prefer it to league, perversely. There was a big worry that with money at stake the game would descend into farce. Needless to say it didn't through strong refereeing and respect for the code.
It is sad to see juniors/clubs playing the game in a cynical way rather than in the spirit. Coaches would never openly condone 'gamesmanship' (I hate the term. Cheating is cheating) when I was at school in the 80s/90s. If someone cheated and got away with it it was a wry grin, not celebrated. Doesn't matter whats at stake, a dodgy victory isn't really a victory at all, Neil Back.
Kids / their coaches play the way they see their heroes play though without the official scrutiny. Lot of really cynical stuff at schoolboy level I've heard about, things for which pros/coaches would get long bans.
bit like the 'new abusive fans' thing, not endemic, just needs keeping an eye on.

Peter B

fatboypee wrote: »

Yet, where we play our Rugby, it appears official 'rules' are not adhered to with any great interest and a case in point one of the acclaimed "fully qualified" refs in our last outing allowed his team to drop-kick conversions ?!? .....

I'm not a ref or a coach but I thought you are allowed to dropkick conversions.

hardCopy wrote: »

Yes. Some level of cheating is defintely part of the game.

Even in school I was always taught to 'play the ref'. That could mean lying on the ball, breaking early from the scrum or hitting the outhalf after he kicks. I've always seen it as part of rugby and not really a problem.

I completely agree with the above. In fairness this is what Morgan Parra was saying we do and this message board went into a frenzy of hate towards the player.

BoarHunter

you are of course allowed drop goal kick conversion

outwest

as a prop, when we were attacking i was told to hold on the my opponents jersey for a few seconds. it a form cheating but its part of the game.

i hated player who tried to kill the ball, i would ofton rake his legs, so he would do it again,

i remember once a player jumped over the ruck to kill the ball, scrum half raked his legs, ref gave us a pen (rightly), thier coach went nuts, accused our player of stamping on the guys back, their coach was the touch judge, pen reversed, we were in the 5 metre line they cleared their lines. next throw wasnt straight, scrum took a quick tap and ran 40 metres to score a try under the posts. the celebration he did was stamping his feet on ground, haha karma will always come back to bite ya

anonymous_joe

andrewdcs wrote: »

It's the debate, at minors level, we all had when professionalism came in. Rugby is a hard game, and "getting away with it" is a part of it, in fact, the chaos and grind are why I prefer it to league, perversely. There was a big worry that with money at stake the game would descend into farce. Needless to say it didn't through strong refereeing and respect for the code.
It is sad to see juniors/clubs playing the game in a cynical way rather than in the spirit. Coaches would never openly condone 'gamesmanship' (I hate the term. Cheating is cheating) when I was at school in the 80s/90s. If someone cheated and got away with it it was a wry grin, not celebrated. Doesn't matter whats at stake, a dodgy victory isn't really a victory at all, Neil Back.
Kids / their coaches play the way they see their heroes play though without the official scrutiny. Lot of really cynical stuff at schoolboy level I've heard about, things for which pros/coaches would get long bans.
bit like the 'new abusive fans' thing, not endemic, just needs keeping an eye on.

Ya see, here's your problem. Munster lost that game. The world remembers who won. Not who lost. Munster were cheated out of a win.

Munster cheated Leinster out of a cup too when Stringer dived. People don't remember that, but they remember Munster winning.

Don't kid yourself into thinking players care how they win, they just know they have to.

Roanmore

Peter B wrote: »

Many our Olympic medalists have been done for cheating. Also amateur golf is ruined by the huge levels of cheating in the sport.

I think you need to clarify this, we haven't had that many Olympic medalists and to say many have been done for cheating is doing a disservice to the majority who did not cheat. As far as I know only one Irish Olympian has had his medal taken away (Cian O'Connor) and another was done for failing anout of contest test (Michelle Smith). Don't want to draw the thread off topic but I thought it was an unfair statement.

Chucky the tree

To be brutallly honest the only thing that worries me about this thread is finding out that a person who didn't even know taking a drop-kick conversion was allowed has been put in charge of coaching young players. It's a rule I'd expect even fair-weather Rugby fans to know.

LostPassword

I don't think it's changed much to be honest. When I used to play (almost 20 years ago now - well before professionalism), as a 7, I recall being coached to make sure that "the outhalf knew I was there the first few times he got the ball". I don't recall a ruck or maul which wasn't just a great big free-for-all wrestling match for the ball and everybody, as a rule, would try to hold you into mauls, scrums and rucks, block your running lines, etc. Scrums and lineouts were home to all manner of hidden underhand cheating.

There are pretty much two options open to one to respond to such cheating. 1) histrionics to catch the ref's attention 2) violence. 2 is especially good at discouraging cheating - if the price of a jersey tug is a smack in the jaw from a fierce headcase, it tends to die out.

Underage rugby has always been worse than the highest levels. Firstly because there is way less scrutiny and secondly because teenagers are full of bravado, testosterone and identity issues that cause them to feel that they need to prove themselves in all instances.

When it comes down to it, rugby is mostly about imposing physical dominance on the opposition. The laws merely provide a rough pattern of how the physical contest plays itself out. Stuff that happens on the wrong side of the law impacts upon the outcome of the physical contest and is just a much a part of it as those elements within the laws.

It sounds to me like the OP is focusing too much on the game as described in the rules and not enough on the fundamental physical contest. It should be taken as a given that opposition players will cheat whenever possible - part of the physical contest is discouraging them. If somebody holds you back, you swing your arm behind you to free yourself. If somebody blocks your run or keeps taking you out off the ball, you lead with your forearm and go through him. Somebody picks on one of your guys, your guys have to front up and make sure he realises that he won't get away with it.

outwest

a player i play with never took a kick infront of the post from the ground,
always drop them over.


only cheats in rugby are one who take drugs,

and to quote my ex coach. ur only cheating if u get caught

corny

Getting bogey decisions from partial, unqualified refs really shouldn't surprise or anger people. It is naive to expect everyone should have the same views as yourself OP. Not everyone has a Muscular Christian view on sport. For some it is win at all cost and its only human nature to favour the team you associate with. The real issue for me would be these people shouldn't be given the chance to influence the game in the first place.

"I personally see no value in cheating on an individual or a team basis in ANY situation". There'd be no need for a referee if everyone held this true. Again, with respect OP, it is naive to expect everyone should play the game like this. Pushing the limits of the referee has always been part of Rugby. A good 7 is celebrated for doing just that. I wouldn't advocate diving or feigning injury as i find that sort of stuff distasteful but lying on the ball or shielding defenders out of the way around a ruck is fair game for me until the referee penalises you for it.

daveharnett

Good question OP.

I would say that by it's nature, rugby is more conducive to cheating than most. In most sports, most of the laws can be implemented in a pretty clear-cut way on the pitch: For instance, a serve is either in or out. By contrast, a game which allows 8+ players from each side to regularly wrestle, push and ruck for the ball is obviously going to lead to lots of ambiguity.

I look at reffing a lot like this:

Dara O Briain
There are three states of legality in Irish law. All this stuff here which comes under ‘That’s grand’ then it moves into ‘Ah now, don’t push it’ and finally it moves into ‘Right, you’re taking the piss’ - that’s when the police sweep in.

At the level I ref, a tackle-ruck will see at least half a dozen things happen which aren't allowed for in the law book. Even with the most disciplined players in the world, if they're trying, they will end up breaking the laws pretty regularly. The only way to manage the game is to speak to players when they are 'pushing it', and use the whistle only if they start to take the piss.

There are other compounding factors. Backs may coast along on talent, but for forwards, there is absolutely no substitute for lots and lots of aggression. A lot of the most effective players I've seen at underage level end up getting carded more games than not.

For me, none of this is 'unfair'. The law for many teams is that you do whatever you can to a point to secure the win, and you obey the law as written to the limit of the ref's tolerance and awareness. For me that's perfectly fair - both teams have equal opportunity to cheat.

To be fair to clubs, most players and coaches (at least at underage) have a good appreciation of where 'professional' play ends and foul play begins. I have seen coaches reprimand and/or substitute players for incidents I missed, and I have had lots of captains genuinely work with me to keep heated situations and players under control.

For me, the biggest problem as I see it is the classic professional foul, where a player blatantly and unapologetically breaks the law knowing the reward outweighs the punishment. But I blame the law and the referee more than the players for that.

fatboypee

corny wrote: »

Getting bogey decisions from partial, unqualified refs really shouldn't surprise or anger people. It is naive to expect everyone should have the same views as yourself OP. Not everyone has a Muscular Christian view on sport. For some it is win at all cost and its only human nature to favour the team you associate with. The real issue for me would be these people shouldn't be given the chance to influence the game in the first place.

"I personally see no value in cheating on an individual or a team basis in ANY situation". There'd be no need for a referee if everyone held this true. Again, with respect OP, it is naive to expect everyone should play the game like this. Pushing the limits of the referee has always been part of Rugby. A good 7 is celebrated for doing just that. I wouldn't advocate diving or feigning injury as i find that sort of stuff distasteful but lying on the ball or shielding defenders out of the way around a ruck is fair game for me until the referee penalises you for it.

I agree with you, I am naive, (purposely so to be honest) I coach as I would like to see the game played, as it should be played, valuing (and rewarding) skill and teamwork above getting one over on the ref. And my point still stands in that it is not the individual cheats that I have particular issue with but the institutional level to which it appears to have risen whereby wherever our team travels we are unlikely to be guaranteed a fair game, be it from a coach egging on his players to "Do them over", cynical taking out of our players off the ball (unpunished), to the inevitable dodgy refereeing. Our lads are now extremely aware that they will not get a fair decision and do not look for one under any circumstances.

I am merely lamenting the culture change as I said in a previous post we are told we coach kids who play Rugby. As much as its a game, and one I love, we are also influencing them on how they should play the game. If its win at all costs and I'm naive, I'd rather quit than get with the program to be honest.

anonymous_joe

outwest wrote: »

and to quote my ex coach. ur only cheating if u get caught

Richie McCaw - best cheat in the world, and best player.

Not unrelated.

fatboypee wrote: »

I agree with you, I am naive, (purposely so to be honest) I coach as I would like to see the game played, as it should be played, valuing (and rewarding) skill and teamwork above getting one over on the ref. And my point still stands in that it is not the individual cheats that I have particular issue with but the institutional level to which it appears to have risen whereby wherever our team travels we are unlikely to be guaranteed a fair game, be it from a coach egging on his players to "Do them over", cynical taking out of our players off the ball (unpunished), to the inevitable dodgy refereeing. Our lads are now extremely aware that they will not get a fair decision and do not look for one under any circumstances.

I am merely lamenting the culture change as I said in a previous post we are told we coach kids who play Rugby. As much as its a game, and one I love, we are also influencing them on how they should play the game. If its win at all costs and I'm naive, I'd rather quit than get with the program to be honest.

Cheating is a valued skill in rugby though.

The 'dark arts of the scrum' and the role of the 7 especially (and his two back-row cohorts) are all based on cheating as effectively as possible.

Risteard

To me 'cheating' is part of the game. By that I mean trying to rob the ball illegally, maybe grabbing hold of a players jersey to give your backs more time, slowing down ball etc.

I make a distinction though between this and foul play. Punching, stamping, kicking, biting don't come under cheating and should be punished severely,likewise the use of drugs or faking an injury.

As said above, there are different degrees of it and that's the way I expect it.

hardCopy

fatboypee wrote: »

I am merely lamenting the culture change as I said in a previous post we are told we coach kids who play Rugby. As much as its a game, and one I love, we are also influencing them on how they should play the game. If its win at all costs and I'm naive, I'd rather quit than get with the program to be honest.

I'm not sure how long you've been in the game but for as long as I've played it's always been a cynical game where the rules are really just guidelines.

But I wouldn't have it any other way. A ref who tries to play everything by the book can completely ruin a game, most players I know would rather just bash into each other all day with as little whistle blowing as possible. Although I do love the fact that rugby players tend to shut up and respect the ref's interpretation whether it suits them or not.

There is obviously a line that shoudln't be crossed and I would never want to injure someone with a late hit or anything, but if I can provoke him into punching me and getting binned, happy days.

It's important that your players understand this element of the game, if your outhalf leaves his leg hanging after every kick then some flanker is going to go through it and by then it's too late to complain about cynical play.

fatboypee

hardCopy wrote: »

I'm not sure how long you've been in the game but for as long as I've played it's always been a cynical game where the rules are really just guidelines.

I've been a player since I was 8 right thru to serious injury aged 33, returned in a social capacity aged 35 (still playing the odd game) and coach the last 12 years. In all that time I have to say that I never once viewed the game as wholly cynical, or the rules as merely guidelines.

There is obviously a line that shoudln't be crossed and I would never want to injure someone with a late hit or anything, but if I can provoke him into punching me and getting binned, happy days.

I'm sorry, I know it sounds preachy, its not meant to be, but I would much prefer teaching kids how to beat the man or break the tackle than resort to this. Not to say you don't teach them how to manage stuff like this when it happens to them but in no way would I advocate this kind of approach as to do so, you may just as well head off and play GAA.

It's important that your players understand this element of the game, if your outhalf leaves his leg hanging after every kick then some flanker is going to go through it and by then it's too late to complain about cynical play.

Absolutely. But then again, my point is not player cheating at an individual level rather the cynical gameplans employed by alot of teams at youth level and moreover the unabidable dodgy reffing.

Podge_irl

BoarHunter wrote: »

you are of course allowed drop goal kick conversion

Berne did it against Connacht. I'm always amazed players don't do it more often. Teams chasing a game nearly always still waste 30 seconds on a conversion right in front of the posts.


Cheating of various forms is indeed endemic in the game (though it depends on your definition of cheating). I think it's foolish to blame professionalism or view it as a modern invention though. The line between killing the ball 5m from your line and faking an injury is not really as clear as people would like to pretend.

CatFromHue

from reading this thread you'd get the idea that thats all teams ever do is go out to cheat.

there are a number of factors really why people would think this.

there are alot of rules, and alot of players. also alot of rules are subjective to the ref i.e. tackling, scrum, and the breakdown.

there are alot of things happenings in the game at once that people may not always recognise

a lineout for example, the hooker has to throw it in straight, the lineout jumpers have to get up there quick without impinging on each other, the backs have to be back 10m, form their defensive line and then advance at the right time while the opposing backs will be trying to run an intricate and yet dazzling move that astounds everyone ;-)

so within a period of say 5 secs 3/4 of the players on each team are actually someway involved.

combine all the above with physical agressiveness of the game and players wanting to get stuck in and you could see why one group of people would think everyone is cheating. another group would differ

the hand of back withstanding ive never really had any major problems with the "dark arts" of the game or anything like that.

now 6 a side football leagues, you know the onse where there are refs. they're are a complete mind f**k

Webbs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/johnbeattie/2010/04/cheating_has_crept_into_rugby.html

Couldnt agree more with a lot of what he says.

The prop thing has been a real irritation to me for ages, apart from the histrionics there is no difference between that and a wendyball player rolling around as if hes been shot to get play to stop?
Trying your luck by putting in a hand to slow a ball or the odd tug of a jersey has always gone on but now as you cant give a guy a good shoeing if he is lying offside has meant the 'cheaters' have a free licence.
A player only puts his arms in the air if he is trying to con the ref e.g. he is trying to roll away from ruck or the lazy runner coming back.

Webbs

CatFromHue wrote: »

from reading this thread you'd get the idea that thats all teams ever do is go out to cheat.

there are a number of factors really why people would think this.

there are alot of rules, and alot of players. also alot of rules are subjective to the ref i.e. tackling, scrum, and the breakdown.

there are alot of things happenings in the game at once that people may not always recognise

a lineout for example, the hooker has to throw it in straight, the lineout jumpers have to get up there quick without impinging on each other, the backs have to be back 10m, form their defensive line and then advance at the right time while the opposing backs will be trying to run an intricate and yet dazzling move that astounds everyone ;-)

so within a period of say 5 secs 3/4 of the players on each team are actually someway involved.

combine all the above with physical agressiveness of the game and players wanting to get stuck in and you could see why one group of people would think everyone is cheating. another group would differ

the hand of back withstanding ive never really had any major problems with the "dark arts" of the game or anything like that.

now 6 a side football leagues, you know the onse where there are refs. they're are a complete mind f**k

In your example of the lineout there is a distinction in my mind between trying to throw the ball in a foot or so not straight, trying to steal a yard at the offside line and the other actions that have become endemic that John Beattie highlights in his blog.
Most fast moving sports will always have players trying to beat an offside, a little tug of the jersey, steal a yard or two at freekick time etc. I just dont want Rugby to go down the route of football and seeing players trying to get each other sent off etc

toomevara

Webbs wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/johnbeattie/2010/04/cheating_has_crept_into_rugby.html

Couldnt agree more with a lot of what he says.

+1, excellent piece. As I've said before we're on a slippery slope with rugby and once the culture of the game changes fundamentally, its very difficult to get it back...A good bit of straight rucking should be brought back into the game to keep forwards honest. Want to lie offside? grand, but you're going to get a good shoeing for your troubles...it was fine for the first hundred years of RU don't know why it isn't now. It would also speed up the game and favour the attacking side in keeping with the game's new mantra....

anonymous_joe

Irony of that is that John Beattie was one of the cheatiest Scottish back-row forwards ever.

Not to mention his son, one of the best and sneakiest players I've seen in recent years.

Webbs

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Irony of that is that John Beattie was one of the cheatiest Scottish back-row forwards ever.

Not to mention his son, one of the best and sneakiest players I've seen in recent years.

I dont think its ironic at all - he isnt saying that the game should be one in which players dont try things on just as they always have done. He wants rid of the other elements of cheating that are creeping into the game, Rugby is at top of slippery slope and if the law makers and enforcers arent careful Rugby could be going down the football route.

profitius

How about the champions league semi last night. Inter players diving, pretending to be injured and doing their best to waste as much time as possible. Its part of the reason I don't watch soccer anymore.

I can accept players slowing down the game but the diving and pretending to be injured is a disgrace.

daveharnett

CatFromHue wrote: »

from reading this thread you'd get the idea that thats all teams ever do is go out to cheat.

The broadest definition of cheating in sport is "any action which violates the rules in order to gain an advantage". By that definition players cheat constantly, and teams are coached to cheat as a matter of course.

Beattie's pet hate of players smuggling the ball away at free kicks/penalties/lineouts is also one of mine. It is so easy for referees to manage, and creates so many problems, yet so many refs ignore it. It should be treated the same as failing to retreat - penalize it the first time it happens, and it will not happen again.

Pisco Sour

Peter B wrote: »

Many our Olympic medalists have been done for cheating. Also amateur golf is ruined by the huge levels of cheating in the sport.

Michelle Smith is the only one of our Olympic Medallists to have cheated! 1 out of 21 medallists (4 of 23 medals)!

Cian O'Connor cheated and was stripped as a result!

I realise this is an off-topic post but I just had to respond to this stupid and utterly ignorant comment!

BBDBB

it may not help clarify things

but ref rugby I was always taught you (and your opponents) will do what ever they can to win the ball, if that gets pinged by the ref then fair enough you shut your gob and get on with it. If he misses it or doesnt call it then its part of the game and there is nothing you can do to change it so dont whine, just get on with it


cheers

d'Oracle

Podge_irl wrote: »

Berne did it against Connacht. I'm always amazed players don't do it more often. Teams chasing a game nearly always still waste 30 seconds on a conversion right in front of the posts.

I watched a twenties match years ago on a windy day.

One of the lads was playing OH.
Lined up for a conversion, started his run up, the charge started and the wind promptly blew the ball over.

Quick as a flash, he picks it up and drops it over.
It was sweet.

On topic:

There is a problem with what is cheating. I mean there is a certain amount of rule breaking in rugby, we all appreciate that, hell we have all done it. Some stuff is seen as cheating and some is seen cute hoorism. But we either have rules or we don't. The laws dictate what is cheating and what is not, after that its basically a matter of opinion. Which is a bit silly.

I probably could have phrased all that a lot better, but I tried to drown the weekends sport results in beer last night.

Also, I'd like to voice my annoyance at that bloody stupid "ah sure the Irish are the worst for that, ah sure aren't we so **** at everything, we are just awful" attitude.

It makes me sick. People pulling correlations out of their jacksies and blaming it on Ireland and the Irish.