Ex-girlfriend bringing kid to Britain

LegacyUser

i am an irish unmarried father of an irish baby girl, born to another EU citizen.

basically, the relationship broke down and we split up, but we live close to each other and i get the see my girl almost whenever i like.

shortly after we broke up my ex started dating someone for britain, and according to her she is "in love" with her new friend. i am happy for her, but she has known this person all of less than 3 months, and now she has the plan to move to britain regardless of what i say.

now, i don't have guardianship over my girl, when i asked my ex about it she laughed in my face. my baby also has a passport which i signed for, i hadnt assumed she would be leaving the country for good, at least thats her intentions now though

i have told her that i want to see my baby, and that its important for my baby to see and know her father, not to grow up with some stranger. does doesnt seem relevant to my ex-girlfriend though.

is there anything i can do to prevent her from leaving, or at least make her see sense in what she is doing.

pookie82

Seek legal advice immediately. You can take her to court for guardianship of your child regardless of her agreement - solicitors try and push for this to be an amicable process but if you have no choice you can pursue it through the courts.

I would get the wheels in motion BEFORE she leaves the country. Do you have a record of paying child maintenance etc? Unfortunately you have a battle on your hands as this country doesn't favour a biological father with any right which the mother doesn't want to give him unless he pushes through the courts so you need to be armed with the best knowledge there is. Don't hang around on this one.

Nevyn

Go and apply to the courts for guardianship ASAP

Asphyxia

Go to a solicitor straight away and have a big talk, a similar thing happend in my family ages ago it's all cleared up now but you have a long hard road ahead of you as men have alot less rights the courts usually favour the mother in custody battles. The only thing that I can see that they might do is grant you to have the child on holidays it isn't alot but adleast she will get to know her father. My heart goes out to you, Goodluck.

Bluefox21

As most people have said get legal advice asap! You'll need to apply to the District Court for guardianship (you don't actually need a solicitor for this the District Court will help you through the process), it will really help if you have a good relationship with the child, have been paying maintenance etc. Without guardianship you have zero entitlements.

LegacyUser

thank you for the helpful and prompt replies

i do need to see my solicitor and i'll do that tomorrow, was trying to get in touch with the court today but find it difficult to get a number in which to call someone direct, to help me in my case.

i have not paid much maintenance, due to overstretched income, and close to job loss. i have asked my ex if she needs anything at all, anytime for my girl, and i give what i can when i can. i should give more, but i would like to see where my money is going, so i buy what my girl needs ie. food/clothes. i have no receipts for anything, and so i show myself to not really give a damn about my girl, yet i love her and want to be a part of her life.

i find it stressing that she would want to move to britain, after knowing this new man less than 3 months, and meeting him on a handfull of occasions, at best. he actually resides in britain. it feels that she is not thinking of the welfare of our child, but moreso of her having a new man in her life.

i feel that she uses our child against me, to hurt me. i have no rights and she knows this but makes me feel like crap.

she talks to me as if she is doing me a favour my talking to me about getting to see my kid when she moves to britain, when i know full well that i can't jump on a place every week or two to see my child. i know that if/when she moves away access will be limited ie. i can't just show up, and i feel that the relationship i have with the daughter will slowly diminish, until she will never know who i am in the future, or even recognize me.

am i selfish to make my ex stay in ireland with my child, and forget about this other man who she has known a wet week, just so i can be in my kids life?

i want my ex to have a life, a happy one, but surely there has to be a balance for whats right for the child.

LegacyUser

Unless she specifically agrees to joint guardianship then she can take the baby wherever she wants. Preceedent in this area states unmarried, natural fathers only have a right to apply for guardianship and the courts will not award guardianship to a father unless the natural mother agrees to it. Legally you won't get anywhere. Best thing you can do is really try plead with the mother to allow joint guardianship.

LegacyUser

Go down to dolphin house court the quays and apply for guardianship and access hearing at same time

The courts will appoint him as legal guardian, they have no reason not to. Then your ex wont be able to leave the country without your permission

I wouldnt be hanging around, call into dolphin house tomorrow as there is often a few mths wait for a court date

tenchi-fan

I think behaviour like that is a good enough reason for her to lose custody. it's disgusting to think she will raise her daughter with such a horrible attitude.

I hope you get something sorted out, even if it is only an order that prevents her from taking your daughter out of the country. signing for the passport was such a ridiculous move on your part and you should have discussed it with a solicitor first. regardless of any deal your ex offers you, first discuss it with your solicitor and never sign anything without legal advice.

T83

worried and annoyed wrote: »

am i selfish to make my ex stay in ireland with my child, and forget about this other man who she has known a wet week, just so i can be in my kids life?

i want my ex to have a life, a happy one, but surely there has to be a balance for whats right for the child.

No you're not... not at all. She's entitled to a life of course, but that childs life comes first, she had a child with somebody in Ireland who is actively trying to be a part of that childs life, she should stay in Ireland end of story!
I havent seen my father since I was 12 years old, i'm 27 now and it still plays on my mind on a daily basis. Believe me something like that has a huge effect on a child, how they think, who they trust, and how it effects all future relationships. My father couldn't be bothered, but the fact that you want to be a part of that girls life makes all the difference.

You're Ex is being incredibly selfish, and people can jump down my throats if they want about single women being entitled to their own life but I could care less and I'm sick of this degeneration of the idea of family, when it's not prevented by death a child is entitled to have both parents whether those parents are together themselves or not.

Sorry if I ranted and raved a bit, but this hits close to home.

hollis12

T83 wrote: »

No you're not... not at all. She's entitled to a life of course, but that childs life comes first, she had a child with somebody in Ireland who is actively trying to be a part of that childs life, she should stay in Ireland end of story!
I havent seen my father since I was 12 years old, i'm 27 now and it still plays on my mind on a daily basis. Believe me something like that has a huge effect on a child, how they think, who they trust, and how it effects all future relationships. My father couldn't be bothered, but the fact that you want to be a part of that girls life makes all the difference.

You're Ex is being incredibly selfish, and people can jump down my throats if they want about single women being entitled to their own life but I could care less and I'm sick of this degeneration of the idea of family, when it's not prevented by death a child is entitled to have both parents whether those parents are together themselves or not.

Sorry if I ranted and raved a bit, but this hits close to home.

Your so right mate, the woman is incredibly selfish and you have legal grounds for full custody because whatever about her life these actions are damaging to her child basically shes removing the child from one of two of the most important people they will meet in their life.

Everyone can do whatever they want to do in their life but if that involves seperating the child from a loving parent well then tough sh1t do something that doesnt involve ripping a child away from a major source of love in his/her life.

mate go to the courts her intent to bring a child to england will be grounds for you to apply for gaurdian ship.

LegacyUser

i would like to include that all godparents and grandparents are currently residing in ireland right now. my ex has no connection with britain and knows only this new man.

it's worrying to think what life my ex would have in a different country...i'm thinking housing and benefits, which my child needs to have a "normal" upbringing.

LegacyUser

hewillgetit wrote: »

Go down to dolphin house court the quays and apply for guardianship and access hearing at same time

The courts will appoint him as legal guardian, they have no reason not to. Then your ex wont be able to leave the country without your permission

I wouldnt be hanging around, call into dolphin house tomorrow as there is often a few mths wait for a court date

The courts will not appoint an unmarried natural father as legal guardian without mother's permission. That is fact. It is imbedded in our constitution.

Nevyn

What makes you say that? cos I know of 3 unmarried fathers who got made guardians of their children by court appointment.

brokensoul

legallynotgud wrote: »

Unless she specifically agrees to joint guardianship then she can take the baby wherever she wants. Preceedent in this area states unmarried, natural fathers only have a right to apply for guardianship and the courts will not award guardianship to a father unless the natural mother agrees to it. Legally you won't get anywhere. Best thing you can do is really try plead with the mother to allow joint guardianship.

Rubbish, complete and utter nonsense.

Firstly, it isnt precedent that determines that unmarreid father have to apply for guardinship it is law. The fact that a mothers consent is needed for a father to become guardian is not in our constitution.

Secondly, are much more importantly, fathers are almost always ( 90% plus of the time) granted guardianship if they apply for it.

You can make the application directly in your local district Court. If you want a solicitor to represent you in Court then you can go to one, but you can represent yourself in court if you wish. Basically, money should not be a barr to you getting guardianship.

Also, the mother is not allowed to use sporadic or non payment of maintenance as a grounds to deny acess or guardianship.

LegacyUser

brokensoul wrote: »

Rubbish, complete and utter nonsense.

Firstly, it isnt precedent that determines that unmarreid father have to apply for guardinship it is law. The fact that a mothers consent is needed for a father to become guardian is not in our constitution.

Secondly, are much more importantly, fathers are almost always ( 90% plus of the time) granted guardianship if they apply for it.

You can make the application directly in your local district Court. If you want a solicitor to represent you in Court then you can go to one, but you can represent yourself in court if you wish. Basically, money should not be a barr to you getting guardianship.

Also, the mother is not allowed to use sporadic or non payment of maintenance as a grounds to deny acess or guardianship.

The rights of the child will always be deemed to be best served with the natural mother unless she gives up those rights. Read on google the cases of Nicolau v an Bord Uchtala and K v W.

LegacyUser

brokensoul wrote: »

Rubbish, complete and utter nonsense.

Firstly, it isnt precedent that determines that unmarreid father have to apply for guardinship it is law. The fact that a mothers consent is needed for a father to become guardian is not in our constitution.

Secondly, are much more importantly, fathers are almost always ( 90% plus of the time) granted guardianship if they apply for it.

You can make the application directly in your local district Court. If you want a solicitor to represent you in Court then you can go to one, but you can represent yourself in court if you wish. Basically, money should not be a barr to you getting guardianship.

Also, the mother is not allowed to use sporadic or non payment of maintenance as a grounds to deny acess or guardianship.

Just to further clarify

All mothers in Ireland, irrespective of whether they are married or unmarried, have automatic guardianship status in relation to their children, unless they give the child up for adoption. A father who is married to the mother of his child also has automatic guardianship rights in relation to that child. This applies even if the couple married after the birth of the child. The rights of parents to guardianship are set down in Section 6 the Guardianship of Infants Act 1964. Guardianship rights entitle a parent to make important decisions regarding that child's upbringing, for example, deciding on the child's religion, education, medical treatment and where he/she lives.

However, a father who is not married to the mother of his child does not have automatic guardianship rights in relation to that child. If the mother agrees for him to be legally appointed guardian, they must sign a joint statutory declaration. The statutory declaration (SI 5 of 1998) must be signed in the presence of a Peace Commissioner or a Commissioner for Oaths. If there is more than one child, a separate statutory declaration should be made for each.

If the mother does not agree for him to have guardianship, he may apply for this status to the District Court. Statistics for 2004 show that 70% of the 1,237 unmarried fathers applying for guardianship in Ireland in that year had orders granted in their favour.

In the instances in bold all of them were instances of an unfit mother. The OP hasnt given us any indication of that in this instance. The courts won't allow him guardianship unless she agrees I guaranteee it.

LegacyUser

legallynotgud wrote: »

The courts will not appoint an unmarried natural father as legal guardian without mother's permission. That is fact. It is imbedded in our constitution.

Never heard such absolute rubbish in my life. Where did you get your info form. Ive been there and from what the OP has said he is involved in his childs life and therefore there is no valid reason for him not to get it.

The mother may not agree but the judge will grant it unless the OP is not telling us all the info and he is a raving axe murder or a danger to the children

LegacyUser

legallynotgud wrote: »

Just to further clarify

All mothers in Ireland, irrespective of whether they are married or unmarried, have automatic guardianship status in relation to their children, unless they give the child up for adoption. A father who is married to the mother of his child also has automatic guardianship rights in relation to that child. This applies even if the couple married after the birth of the child. The rights of parents to guardianship are set down in Section 6 the Guardianship of Infants Act 1964. Guardianship rights entitle a parent to make important decisions regarding that child's upbringing, for example, deciding on the child's religion, education, medical treatment and where he/she lives.

However, a father who is not married to the mother of his child does not have automatic guardianship rights in relation to that child. If the mother agrees for him to be legally appointed guardian, they must sign a joint statutory declaration. The statutory declaration (SI 5 of 1998) must be signed in the presence of a Peace Commissioner or a Commissioner for Oaths. If there is more than one child, a separate statutory declaration should be made for each.

If the mother does not agree for him to have guardianship, he may apply for this status to the District Court. Statistics for 2004 show that 70% of the 1,237 unmarried fathers applying for guardianship in Ireland in that year had orders granted in their favour.

In the instances in bold all of them were instances of an unfit mother. The OP hasnt given us any indication of that in this instance. The courts won't allow him guardianship unless she agrees I guaranteee it.

Are you living on the same planet as the rest of us???? so what you are basically saying is that of the applications to the district court, most of these fathers ex partners are unfit mothers??? There must be an awful lot of unfit mothers about so....... you are getting better and better each time you post.

It is closer to 90% had their guardianship granted but most certainly not because the exes were unfit mothers. Hilarous you are.

Bluefox21

Do you have any basis for that allegation? The mothers behaviour is pretty irrelevant unless she is actually deemed to be "an unfit mother". The case will be decided on the merits of the fathers application and significantly what is in the best interests of the child. Therefore if it is not in the best interests of the child to go to England (which seems to be the case) the father has a strong chance of succeeding

hollis12

legallynotgud wrote: »

The courts will not appoint an unmarried natural father as legal guardian without mother's permission. That is fact. It is imbedded in our constitution.

Unless the mother is not of sound mind and if shes displacing her kid and removing the father from the childs life that woul be a case for of not sound mind, true its in our constitution but many legal minds consider it quite backward that its in our constitution and will use other means to award custody of the child like her "not being of sound mind"

RIRI

OP do you have any kind of relationship with your exes family or friends at all? Obviously upping sticks & moving to the UK with a small child is a big move so perhaps someone close to her might make her see sense? From what you have said if it was my sister/friend planning to do this to live with a man she hardly knows I would be very concerned & happy to have a chat with her on your behalf.

Of course you need to get the legal stuff sorted asap, the number for the family circuit court is 01 8886806 if that's any help

Best of luck to you

LegacyUser

hewillgetit wrote: »

Never heard such absolute rubbish in my life. Where did you get your info form. Ive been there and from what the OP has said he is involved in his childs life and therefore there is no valid reason for him not to get it.

The mother may not agree but the judge will grant it unless the OP is not telling us all the info and he is a raving axe murder or a danger to the children

Are you a solicitor?

From McMarion Campell solicitors website :

The following relates to children born of parents who are not married at the time of birth. In those circumstances only the natural mother is automatically deemed to be a Guardian. The natural father can become a Guardian by a number of means:

a. Subsequently marry the natural mother. - Not possible here
b. Apply to the Courts to be appointed a Guardian. It is important to note there is no automatic right to be appointed a Guardian, rather it is merely a right to apply to be appointed, refer to the decision of Keegan –v- Ireland which changed the Law in that respect. See Bolded Part in next paragraph
c. Reach an agreement with the natural mother to be appointed a Guardian. This agreement must be given effect to by the making of a Statutory Declaration. Your best chance as I've been saying


Following the death of the natural mother or other Guardian, the natural father may be appointed Guardian. If he is so appointed, he is referred to as a “Testamentary Guardian”. Up until 20 years ago, the issue of Guardianship rights of unmarried fathers was quite simple. There were no such rights. It was not until the Status of Children’s Act 1987 that natural fathers could apply to Courts to be appointed a Guardian. It was made very clear by the Supreme Court in the decision of JK –v- VW that this was merely a right to apply and was not a right to be automatically be appointed Guardian. Natural mothers have an automatic right to Guardianship, natural fathers do not.


There is an extreme outside chance of being awarded guardianship but it is highly unlikely unless the mother consents.

Are a lot of people confusing visitation rights with guardianship I wonder?

LegacyUser

Bluefox21 wrote: »

Do you have any basis for that allegation? The mothers behaviour is pretty irrelevant unless she is actually deemed to be "an unfit mother". The case will be decided on the merits of the fathers application and significantly what is in the best interests of the child. Therefore if it is not in the best interests of the child to go to England (which seems to be the case) the father has a strong chance of succeeding

Doesn't quite work that way. The courts state that a child's best interests always lay with their natural mother. If the mother doesn't want joint guardianship as it would restrict her unenumerated right to travel and she is a mother of sound mind then the courts will rule in her favour.

LegacyUser

hollis12 wrote: »

Unless the mother is not of sound mind and if shes displacing her kid and removing the father from the childs life that woul be a case for of not sound mind, true its in our constitution but many legal minds consider it quite backward that its in our constitution and will use other means to award custody of the child like her "not being of sound mind"

Firstly, I agree that the constitution is outdated but thats not my fault. The fact is posters here are telling the OP to battle in court and its going to be to his detriment. Its going to piss off his ex, the courts will rule against him and she will never agree to joint guardianship.
The OPs best way to go about this is to try get joint guardianship.

As for the displacing the child argument, it wont hold up. Courts have returned babies to mothers who placed them up for adoption 2 YEARS after they had settled with their adoptive parents because in the eyes of the court, the natural mother always has inalienable rights to her child. Arguments that this would be psychologically damaging to the child weren't enough then and they won't be enough now.

OP I really think bringing your ex to court is the wrong way to go about it. Beg her, plead for joint guardianship.

LittleBook

legallynotgud wrote: »

However, a father who is not married to the mother of his child does not have automatic guardianship rights in relation to that child. If the mother agrees for him to be legally appointed guardian, they must sign a joint statutory declaration. The statutory declaration (SI 5 of 1998) must be signed in the presence of a Peace Commissioner or a Commissioner for Oaths. If there is more than one child, a separate statutory declaration should be made for each.

If the mother does not agree for him to have guardianship, he may apply for this status to the District Court. Statistics for 2004 show that 70% of the 1,237 unmarried fathers applying for guardianship in Ireland in that year had orders granted in their favour.

This is copied almost verbatim from the Citizensinformation.ie site which I recommend you visit OP.

However, contrary to what has been indicated in previous posts, the next paragraph from the site is this:

While the mother's views are taken into account, the fact that she does not consent to the guardianship application does not automatically mean that the court will refuse the order sought by the father. Instead, the court will decide what is in the best interest of the child.

In situations where the father has been appointed joint guardian of a child, then his consent is required for certain things relating to the child's general welfare and other items. (For example, for passport applications for the child). Read more about passports for children of unmarried parents here (pdf). The father's consent is also required for the adoption of the child by another couple (or by the mother and her husband). Read more about adoption here.

LegacyUser

LittleBook wrote: »

However, contrary to what has been indicated in previous posts, the next paragraph from the site is this:

Quote:
While the mother's views are taken into account, the fact that she does not consent to the guardianship application does not automatically mean that the court will refuse the order sought by the father. Instead, the court will decide what is in the best interest of the child.

And unless the mother is not of sound mind the courts interpret the best interest of the child to always lay with the natural mother!!!!

LegacyUser

I think people are confusing joint guardianship with joint custody,

Apply for joint guardianship, from what you've told us there is no reason why you shouldn't get it, the mother can object of course but the judge will always grant it unless there is a specific reason why the father shouldn't become a guardian.

It is important for you be made a guardian (especially if this move to the U.K goes ahead), for example if she did move and god forbid your ex died then you would have a battle on your hands in relation to custody etc even though you would be the only surviving parent.

LegacyUser

legallynotgud wrote: »

And unless the mother is not of sound mind the courts interpret the best interest of the child to always lay with the natural mother!!!!

I'm a mother and although I didnt want my ex to have guardianship, he still got it though court so you are totally wrong unless of course you want to make out that I am an unfit mother?

You really dont have a clue, almost all fathers who have an interest in their children will get guardianship but it really means feck all because the control is still with the parent (mother or father) who have the day to day care of the child.

LegacyUser

hewillgetit wrote: »

You really dont have a clue, almost all fathers who have an interest in their children will get guardianship but it really means feck all because the control is still with the parent (mother or father) who have the day to day care of the child.

Guardianship doesn't mean **** all it means the father is equal in the eyes of law to that of the mother. Are you sure your not confusing guardianship with visitation rights? Very, very unlikely for the court to rule for joint custody when the mother doesn't want it.

pookie82

legallynotgud wrote: »

Guardianship doesn't mean **** all it means the father is equal in the eyes of law to that of the mother. Are you sure your not confusing guardianship with visitation rights? Very, very unlikely for the court to rule for joint custody when the mother doesn't want it.

Why are you mentioning joint custody? We're talking about guardianship. I think you might be the one getting carried away and confused.

I know of numerous unmarried fathers who won guardianship through the courts though the mother opposed it. That's not CUSTODY now, it's guardianship. Two different things completely. And none of the mothers in these cases were what could be considered bad mothers. So your insistence that it's impossible just doesn't hold up.