Yet another mistake!

Jay Ru

During season 3 Ben returns from pushing Locke in the ditch and shooting him, as he makes his way into the group he stops and talks to Richard. He tells Richard that Jacob has just given him orders, if thats not a mistake i don't know what is. In Richards ep this season we learn that Richard is the ONLY person on the island besides MIB that cud talk to Jacob before he was killed. We know Ben lied to alot of folk about Jacob over the years but how cud he lie to Richard considering Richard is one of the few people to have ever seen Jacob. So WHY DIDN'T RICHARD PULL HIM UP ON IT!

mawk

maybe cause jacob didnt tell richard much of anything. So for all richard knew, ben HAD just had a chat with him. Richard is in the dark almost as much as everyone else.

Macca3000

With a show as vast and as complicated as Lost, there is bound to be a few loose ends and questions that will remain unanswered. On top of this there will be mistakes and editorial bloopers that just can't be resolved now.

As long as it wraps up in a convincing manner to the overall tone of the show and I get some sort of satisfaction from investing 6 years in the programme I'll be happy to ignore the little indescretions that are bound to be there.

Jay Ru

It amazes me how many people are quick to defend Lost. Don't get me wrong i enjoy the show for what it is but there's people here and just about anywhere else that think Lost is one of the finest tv shows ever made and in my book if a show can't get the little things right then it doesn't deserve the praise its getting.

@ Macca, The Wire is every bit as vast as Lost, its cast is a hell of a lot bigger and every character in the show had a part to play in the over all story ie no redshirts. It ran for 5 series and theres not one mistake in it. The difference is that with the Wire's story was laid out from the start, whether or not they got a 2nd series David Simon and Ed Burns new exactly how they wanted to tell there story, and what story they wanted to tell. And correct me if i'm wrong but once u get an ending ur happy with u don't mind ALL the little mistakes that have popped up over the years?

@ Mawk, na not buying that one at all. Richard was the only one on the island besides MIB to have ever talked to Jacob. Jacob asked Richard to be his go between, so if Ben was talking to Jacob then that wud mean that Richard no long has a purpose on the island. Add to that the fact that Richard knew Hurley was lying when he Jacob told him to do this and that , because Jacob doesn't tell anyone to do ANYTHING. So why didn't Richard know Ben was lying then!

ArmaniJeanss

Jay Ru wrote: »

So why didn't Richard know Ben was lying then!

How about this - He did know Ben was lying but chose not to do anything about it?

Sometimes you don't immediately tell the liar that you know they are lying. The fact that they lied is just something you store in a corner of your brain, to be used at an opportune moment.
Exposing Ben as a liar in front of his people would have undermined Bens position as leader, something Richard did not want.

Or perhaps he tacitly approved of this lie because the orders Ben was giving suited Richards purpose (I honestly can't remember what they were, was it the 'take our people and go the temple' speech?)

blue_steel

Jay Ru wrote: »

It amazes me how many people are quick to defend Lost. Don't get me wrong i enjoy the show for what it is but there's people here and just about anywhere else that think Lost is one of the finest tv shows ever made and in my book if a show can't get the little things right then it doesn't deserve the praise its getting.

@ Macca, The Wire is every bit as vast as Lost, its cast is a hell of a lot bigger and every character in the show had a part to play in the over all story ie no redshirts. It ran for 5 series and theres not one mistake in it. The difference is that with the Wire's story was laid out from the start, whether or not they got a 2nd series David Simon and Ed Burns new exactly how they wanted to tell there story, and what story they wanted to tell. And correct me if i'm wrong but once u get an ending ur happy with u don't mind ALL the little mistakes that have popped up over the years?

@ Mawk, na not buying that one at all. Richard was the only one on the island besides MIB to have ever talked to Jacob. Jacob asked Richard to be his go between, so if Ben was talking to Jacob then that wud mean that Richard no long has a purpose on the island. Add to that the fact that Richard knew Hurley was lying when he Jacob told him to do this and that , because Jacob doesn't tell anyone to do ANYTHING. So why didn't Richard know Ben was lying then!

+1. The defensiveness that some people greet any criticism with is quiet astounding really, forcing them to come up with the most convoluted excuses for sloppy writing. Some of the inconsistencies seem glaring imho but we should reserve judgement till its over. I do love the show but worry it’s unravelled a bit in it’s final year.
As for this specific example it'll be explained by Ben being a self serving liar I suppose; a devise which will probably end up covering a multitude of errors.

Jay Ru

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

How about this - He did know Richard was lying but chose not to do anything about it?

Sometimes you don't immediately tell the liar that you know they are lying. The fact that they lied is just something you store in a corner of your brain, to be used at an opportune moment.
Exposing Ben as a liar in front of his people would have undermined Bens position as leader, something Richard did not want.

Or perhaps he tacitly approved of this lie because the orders Ben was giving suited Richards purpose (I honestly can't remember what they were, was it the 'take our people and go the temple' speech?)

na not buying that either, I don't get why Richard wud follow Ben's orders to begin with. I don't see his motivation. For starters, after Jacob and MIB Richard is arguably the next most powerful man on the island. For the simply fact he is the only one who can comunicate wit Jacob. So why wud he follow any order from anyone but Jacob. Jacob explained to Richard his purpose on the island was to keep MIB there and prove to him that not all men can be cururpted by evil. So why wud the go better for a man with such a person follow somebody who has been proven to be one of the biggest liars in the history of tv characters and who has obviously been curupted by the power of his position and possibliy the island after he was saved. Ben may not be a completely evil person and may find some redemption before the end of the show but he's certainly not the type of person who shud be leading a group of people on a mission from Jacob. The writers have made a huge mess of thing when it comes to this aspect of the show and there no outcome i can think of that cud fix it.

Why wud Locke have to kill his own father on the island to prove he cud lead the same group

Why didn't Smoke just pick off the Darma group before they even got to set up the Sonic fence or build Darmaville

How cud a group of people on a mission from a person such as Jacob commit mass murder, even if they where damaging the island

Thens theres all the problems with the "Lists" that have been explained away as Bens lies.

Lost to me is a show that i enjoy because i've always been into mythology, but its a show that been over rated since the first series and a not very well thought out show. The few explainations we've gotten this series have all been a let down from, Richards age, to Christain, and whispers, not one em delivered on the mysteries they posed since there introductions.

purcela

Jay Ru wrote: »

Lost to me is a show that i enjoy because i've always been into mythology, but its a show that been over rated since the first series and a not very well thought out show. The few explainations we've gotten this series have all been a let down from, Richards age, to Christain, and whispers, not one em delivered on the mysteries they posed since there introductions.

Spot on. I've followed the show ever since it started but it has lost track of itself and contradicted itself far too often. Hopefully any answers we get in the last 4 episodes are better explained than the poor efforts given to us so far this season!

Macca3000

Sounds like I'm backtracking but I'm not really defending Lost. I've probably been it's biggest with my friends. There is no doubt the writers had no concrete idea about what the whole story was about probably even as far as season 5. And here they drastically changed the whole feel and drive of the show from mythical/fantasy to just another gun wielding American TV drama.

I guess because I know I have to write off the possibility of getting decent answers for earlier season's questions, I just want the one big resolve now so I feel like it hasn't been a total waste of what could have been a great TV programme.

Jay Ru

Macca3000 wrote: »

With a show as vast and as complicated as Lost, there is bound to be a few loose ends and questions that will remain unanswered. On top of this there will be mistakes and editorial bloopers that just can't be resolved now.

Sounds like a defense to me mate.

Macca3000

Jay Ru wrote: »

Sounds like a defense to me mate.

Yes, and as I said above I know I'm going to be disappointed so I'm hoping for an end to justify the means. At least one that I can convince myself it was all worth it

tony1kenobi

Jay Ru wrote: »

Jacob explained to Richard his purpose on the island was to keep MIB there and prove to him that not all men can be cururpted by evil.

There you go.There was no need for Richard to disclose this to Ben.He knew Ben lied.It had little consequence.....let the lying toerag off.......


......then of course he killed Jacob......

Jay Ru

But why wud Richard follow a liar?

Mr.Nice Guy

Jay Ru wrote: »

But why wud Richard follow a liar?

Couldn't it have something to do with how Ben was healed? I don't think they have fully dealt with that have they? Perhaps it's significant that the island healed him and that's why Richard followed him.

Jay Ru

Maybe thats the reason behind it but it still doesn't explain why (a) a person like Ben who is obviously curupted by power wud be left to lead this group. we've seen time and time again that the others have no problem killing each other. and (b) why wud Jacobs go between take orders from a guy who hasn't even spoken to Jacob or why wud he follow a guy that he knows to be a compulsive liar when hes on a mission from a guy who's purpose is to prove that not all of humanity can be curupted. It just makes no sense to me.

He's another example of what i think is another huge mistake. In season 3 Locke and Ben visit "Jacob" in the cabin. This has never been properly explain but what u have is a voice calling out to Locke "Help Me" Since then we've been lead to believe it was either Jacob or MIB, but neither of them where in need of any help. Jacob was living in his foot house and Smokie was out and about on the island in the form of Christian since the first few ep', so why wud either of em look for "Help" Now this cud be still explained as just being a completely different person, but wud anyone be happy with that explanation.

James Forde

of course people are going to defend the show, they've spent (those who have watched it from the start) the past 6 years watching it

yes there are some inconsistencies, but this season isn't over yet and we might still get an explanation for the cabin

me-skywalker

Where exactly does Ricahrd learn that he is the only one that can speak to Jacob? I think you misinterpreted something in that episode.

Jay Ru

He asks Richard to be his go between with the people on the island, kind of a pointless job if Jacob is communicating with other people on the island. Then u have the fact that everybody following Ben believed Ben when he said he was the only one who spoke to Jacob which we all know is a lie. So if not Richard who else wud Jacob communicate on the island before he died?

blue_steel

me-skywalker wrote: »

Where exactly does Ricahrd learn that he is the only one that can speak to Jacob? I think you misinterpreted something in that episode.

In Ab Aeterno?

jimbling

Okay, I'm going to come in here on this... naturally

I am normally one of the people defending lost, but I defend it because I believe it's good at doing what it does. Create a mystery story that provokes discussion and debate. Lost has given us so much enjoyment and it pisses me off when people put it down for being exactly what it has always being.

I have never held the show up on a pedestal. And nobody else should either. Lost is not "The Wire"*. It never was, never will be and it has never tried to be. I absolutely loved The Wire. I enjoy Lost for completely different reasons. I put up with some of the sloppy writing and plot holes because it still delivers.


Lost created a massive fan base because it was unusual and mysterious. But all these convoluted storylines were obviously being made up as they go along.... there's no other way you can write a show like this. As long as the main storyline is thought through properly and not just a mash of answers ill be pretty happy overall.



*Blue_Steel. You're comparing lost with the wire? The Wire is one of the best written, best acted, best produced television shows of all time. You want to compare a crazy sci fi show to that? That's completely unfair for the exact reasons you posted.

jimbling

Oh, and just to mention... I am a little worried to be honest. I'm not sure I like where the story is going... and I don't like the way they have "answered" some of the questions.

But..... I will save my final judgement until the end.

Jay Ru

jimbling wrote: »

Okay, I'm going to come in here on this... naturally

I am normally one of the people defending lost, but I defend it because I believe it's good at doing what it does. Create a mystery story that provokes discussion and debate. Lost has given us so much enjoyment and it pisses me off when people put it down for being exactly what it has always being.

I have never held the show up on a pedestal. And nobody else should either. Lost is not "The Wire"*. It never was, never will be and it has never tried to be. I absolutely loved The Wire. I enjoy Lost for completely different reasons. I put up with some of the sloppy writing and plot holes because it still delivers.


Lost created a massive fan base because it was unusual and mysterious. But all these convoluted storylines were obviously being made up as they go along.... there's no other way you can write a show like this. As long as the main storyline is thought through properly and not just a mash of answers ill be pretty happy overall.



*Blue_Steel. You're comparing lost with the wire? The Wire is one of the best written, best acted, best produced television shows of all time. You want to compare a crazy sci fi show to that? That's completely unfair for the exact reasons you posted.

I was the one who referenced the Wire, i used the comparison simply because somebody else said that Lost was to vast of a show not to have mistakes and plot holes. The Wire was entirely a bigger show in cast and plot and i think its a perfectly fair to compare the 2 in that way. I'm not comparing the style or story of the shows, just the size.

And a show that creates a mystery story shud be able to come up with some decent answers to SOME of the mysteries created, to show that the writers haven't been making it up as they go along, and to me they've failed time and time again to do so. No matter how they end it i'll always be disappointed. Lost has become an average tv show at best!

jimbling

Jay Ru wrote: »

I was the one who referenced the Wire, i used the comparison simply because somebody else said that Lost was to vast of a show not to have mistakes and plot holes. The Wire was entirely a bigger show in cast and plot and i think its a perfectly fair to compare the 2 in that way. I'm not comparing the style or story of the shows, just the size.

Okay, but the size of the cast has nothing to do with the problems that lost has in keeping the story together. That person you were referencing wasn't talking about the size of the cast either. He was referring to the vastness and complication of the story /sub stories.

Jay Ru wrote: »

And a show that creates a mystery story shud be able to come up with some decent answers to SOME of the mysteries created, to show that the writers haven't been making it up as they go along, and to me they've failed time and time again to do so. No matter how they end it i'll always be disappointed. Lost has become an average tv show at best!

1) So you dont think they have come up with any decent answers to some of the mysteries created??
I completely disagree. We get answers all the time, and plenty of them have been excellent and done very well. But people just accept those as part of the story.

2) They were making it up as it goes along. I like to believe they had an overriding story arc, but at the end of the day all those sub-plots and convoluted mysteries were made up as they went.


In saying that, I think that they have created a bit of a mess. They have contradictions galore and some things just cant be answered. They are using get out of jail answers to some of the mysteries which is pretty annoying.

I guess what I'm saying is that yes, I agree, Lost is pretty average show when it comes to the quality of the writing/acting, but pure enjoyment (for me anyway) bumps it up to a decent series overall.

And no other series in history has caused so much discussion/debate/arguments as Lost. No other series has created such mass hysteria online. Come on, it's absolutely amazing really.

Jay Ru

And its completely undeserved. U have people across the world debating stuff that the writers never had an answer to begin with. How is that fair on the viewer? Some of the answers have been good but those have been few and far between.

20goto10

The two writers are Jacob and MiB. They are megolomanics, Jacob's and MiB's manipulation of the characters is an analogy of the writers manipulation of the audience.

don't know who is who in the photo, but anyone else look at that white board photo and just wanna punch the guy with the glasses in the face?

blue_steel

jimbling wrote: »

Okay, I'm going to come in here on this... naturally

I am normally one of the people defending lost, but I defend it because I believe it's good at doing what it does. Create a mystery story that provokes discussion and debate. Lost has given us so much enjoyment and it pisses me off when people put it down for being exactly what it has always being.

I have never held the show up on a pedestal. And nobody else should either. Lost is not "The Wire"*. It never was, never will be and it has never tried to be. I absolutely loved The Wire. I enjoy Lost for completely different reasons. I put up with some of the sloppy writing and plot holes because it still delivers.


Lost created a massive fan base because it was unusual and mysterious. But all these convoluted storylines were obviously being made up as they go along.... there's no other way you can write a show like this. As long as the main storyline is thought through properly and not just a mash of answers ill be pretty happy overall.



*Blue_Steel. You're comparing lost with the wire? The Wire is one of the best written, best acted, best produced television shows of all time. You want to compare a crazy sci fi show to that? That's completely unfair for the exact reasons you posted.

Just to be clear I never mentioned The Wire. I've only just started watching it to be honest! And let me also say, that for pure enjoyment, Lost has been my favourite show of all time.

However.... what really bugs me is that the writers had three and a half seasons to plan the ending. That was a privilege no other TV show in history has ever had. Yet most of the inconsistencies have arisen in those seasons!
All along they've asked the audience to trust them; that all will be revealed. Then suddenly in the final season they shift the goalposts and say they're only going to answer the questions that matter to the characters. That they don't care who built the statue. Or, even worse, that they don't have enough time left to answer everything! I don't think that is repaying our trust, I think it's a cop out.
At the end of the day people invested a lot in the story and will probably try to delude themselves that it was planned out all along but it’s obvious now it wasn't. Such is life; I'll always have seasons 2 and 5, which for me were the best TV ever made.

jimbling

blue_steel wrote: »

Just to be clear I never mentioned The Wire. I've only just started watching it to be honest! And let me also say, that for pure enjoyment, Lost has been my favourite show of all time.

However.... what really bugs me is that the writers had three and a half seasons to plan the ending. That was a privilege no other TV show in history has ever had. Yet most of the inconsistencies have arisen in those seasons!
All along they've asked the audience to trust them; that all will be revealed. Then suddenly in the final season they shift the goalposts and say they're only going to answer the questions that matter to the characters. That they don't care who built the statue. Or, even worse, that they don't have enough time left to answer everything! I don't think that is repaying our trust, I think it's a cop out.
At the end of the day people invested a lot in the story and will probably try to delude themselves that it was planned out all along but it’s obvious now it wasn't. Such is life; I'll always have seasons 2 and 5, which for me were the best TV ever made.

Ya, I know..... Jay Ru pointed that out, my mistake.

I agree with everything you've said really. I'm going to hold judgement about what's answered and whats not to the end of the season though.

Also, I'm not really that concerned about small things not answered that don't impact on the story. Like the statue.... I mean what does it matter who built it?

Jay Ru

blue_steel wrote: »

Just to be clear I never mentioned The Wire. I've only just started watching it to be honest! And let me also say, that for pure enjoyment, Lost has been my favourite show of all time.

However.... what really bugs me is that the writers had three and a half seasons to plan the ending. That was a privilege no other TV show in history has ever had. Yet most of the inconsistencies have arisen in those seasons!
All along they've asked the audience to trust them; that all will be revealed. Then suddenly in the final season they shift the goalposts and say they're only going to answer the questions that matter to the characters. That they don't care who built the statue. Or, even worse, that they don't have enough time left to answer everything! I don't think that is repaying our trust, I think it's a cop out.
At the end of the day people invested a lot in the story and will probably try to delude themselves that it was planned out all along but it’s obvious now it wasn't. Such is life; I'll always have seasons 2 and 5, which for me were the best TV ever made.

bet u'll change ur mind once u've seen all of the Wire

jimbling

Jay Ru wrote: »

bet u'll change ur mind once u've seen all of the Wire

ya, The Wire is fcking awesome. I've been thinking I'm going to start them over again soon.

blue_steel

jimbling wrote: »

Ya, I know..... Jay Ru pointed that out, my mistake.

I agree with everything you've said really. I'm going to hold judgement about what's answered and whats not to the end of the season though.

Also, I'm not really that concerned about small things not answered that don't impact on the story. Like the statue.... I mean what does it matter who built it?

Ah you're right there I suppose. Thats one of those unknown things that add an eerie element to the show.
But I'd still have prefered to see an episode based on the history of the Statue than Sawyer being a cop and going on a date with Charlotte.

me-skywalker

Still doesnt actually SAY anywhere in that episode that Richard is the ONLY one who can communicate with Jacob.

Jay Ru

Do u need every little detail spelled put for you? Jacob asked Richard to be his go between because he didn't want to infuence people like MIB did l? Why else did he need a go between if he was communicating with other people. We've learned from watching the show that witb the exception or Richard nobody on the island knew what Jacob looked like including Ben who was the others leader. Now if u where Jacob and u where going to communicate with somebody on the island other than ur go between don't u think u'd start with the islands so called leader. I really don't know where ur getting that Jacob did talk with others or are u just one of those people who'll defend this average show no matter what?

uncleoswald

Jay Ru wrote: »

Do u need every little detail spelled put for you? Jacob asked Richard to be his go between because he didn't want to infuence people like MIB did l? Why else did he need a go between if he was communicating with other people. We've learned from watching the show that witb the exception or Richard nobody on the island knew what Jacob looked like including Ben who was the others leader. Now if u where Jacob and u where going to communicate with somebody on the island other than ur go between don't u think u'd start with the islands so called leader. I really don't know where ur getting that Jacob did talk with others or are u just one of those people who'll defend this average show no matter what?

I really don't see this as a mistake. And you can see from my posts I'm not someone who will defend Lost to the hilt. In fact most of the people who post here do criticize it to some degree.

Jacob said he didn't want to influence people, he never said he wouldn't talk to them. What about Dogen? He said that he had been visited by Jacob. In fact I don't think Ricard saw Jacob very often, perhaps not for decades. Why else would he become convinced that Locke was the new leader? Richard seemed to be only acting on what he thought Jacob wanted. I think Ben wanted to be leader and manipulated it so he would get Eloise and Widmore banished and then for whatever reason Richard thought Ben was the next chosen leader. Then MiB fooled Richard into thinking that it was Locke who should be leader.

Sure its not too clear right now but its not the most concerning issue.

Jay Ru

Regardless of whether Jacob spoke to anyone but Richard, Richard knew Ben hadn't spoke to Jacob so therefor why wud he follow Ben when he says Jacob told him to do something, in the same way Richard wouldn't believe Hurley because Jacob doesn't tell people what to do!

me-skywalker

Im not defending it but your putting words/actions in characters that have never happened. I can see your reasoning but if you also apply another reasoning in that we never actually specifically see Jacob saying 'I will only ever talk to you.' then you can assume that its believable that Richard believes Jacob can communicate with other ppl since he also communicated with him.

Jay Ru

Fair nuff he didn't tell Richard "I won't talk to anybody else" but Richard knew Hurley was lying about Jacob and refused to follow him so wud he follow Ben when he knew he was also lying

and what word/actions am i putting in that never happened

uncleoswald

I think Richard did know Ben was lying as he wanted to replace Ben with Locke at this stage. Richard's character and motivations have always been mysterious/muddled. I'd guess at some stage, after we saw Richard and Jacob having that discussion on the beach, a decision was reached that when Jacob brought all these people to the island one of them would be made a leader. Who that was might have been entirely Richards decision. The only way I can make sense of it now is if Richard was really really really bad at his job as Jacobs representative.

me-skywalker

uncleoswald wrote: »

The only way I can make sense of it now is if Richard was really really really bad at his job as Jacobs representative.

They is no making sense of it. I think thats what JayRu was saying and I agree but in a roundabout way. I thought Ricahrds backstory was awful and ridiculously convulted at this stage for us to belive in his whole hype. He's jsut a passenger and a interpreter/communicator should never be a passenger for Ben of all people.

Jay Ru

uncleoswald wrote: »

I think Richard did know Ben was lying as he wanted to replace Ben with Locke at this stage. Richard's character and motivations have always been mysterious/muddled. I'd guess at some stage, after we saw Richard and Jacob having that discussion on the beach, a decision was reached that when Jacob brought all these people to the island one of them would be made a leader. Who that was might have been entirely Richards decision. The only way I can make sense of it now is if Richard was really really really bad at his job as Jacobs representative.

If the writers tried to use that as an explanation they shud never be given another job in there life

ToniTuddle

Didn't notice it too much this season but seriously they were simply taking the feicing PISS tonight with Claire :mad:

In the first series with her being all heavily pregnant she managed to actually act properly and acted pregnant. Acted like she had a flippin huge weight hanging on her.

Tonights episode she is able to plop herself down and get up with completely ease and walk about normal.

Your about ready to pop woman!!! You should be waddling about like in the previous series.
:mad:

Not impressed with that bit. Nothing major but still seriously annoying.

FredBloggs

ToniTuddle wrote: »

Didn't notice it too much this season but seriously they were simply taking the feicing PISS tonight with Claire :mad:

In the first series with her being all heavily pregnant she managed to actually act properly and acted pregnant. Acted like she had a flippin huge weight hanging on her.

Tonights episode she is able to plop herself down and get up with completely ease and walk about normal.

Your about ready to pop woman!!! You should be waddling about like in the previous series.
:mad:

Not impressed with that bit. Nothing major but still seriously annoying.

The other thing I can't understand is how come she could fly if she was that heavily pregnant? I'm not an expert in such things so maybe someone will tell me she's far enough away from her due date to allow her fly - but she does look ready to pop!

uncleoswald

Jay Ru wrote: »

If the writers tried to use that as an explanation they shud never be given another job in there life

Well I have no doubt they won't be using that as an excuse so I hope their jobs are safe. I was just saying its the only way I can make sense of Richard and the different leaders of The Others.

As for the proplem in the OP, we know so little about Richards relationship with Jacob that I don't think we can call it a mistake. As i said earlier I'd presume from what we have seen that Richard roll on the Island evolved to something else from that first chat with Jacob. As problems go its certainly not up there with why the hell Ben allowed himself to be trapped and almost killed by Rousseau back in Season 2.