Pros and cons of defection?

roosh

Just read the link to the Róisín Ingle article in the times, and I just wanted to get an idea of the pros and cons of defecting from the RCC.

1. What would it mean for a person as an individual, are there any advantages to it, are there any disadvantages to it e.g. access to schools?
2. What would it mean for the RCC?
3. What would it mean for the wider society in general, would it affect public funding e.g. the state bailout for legal fees, or other areas of social policy and/or development?

I ask this as a believer in [the artist formerly known as] God (not the magic man in the clouds), as a non-practicing member of the RCC, as a one time de facto atheist, and as an ill-disciplined spiritual practicioner.

Personally I wouldn't be arsed defecting from the church as, having given it little or no thought, I would see it as an exercise in a waste of time. However, if there were an overall benefit to myself or the community then I would probably consider it.

Putting aside any differences of opinion on the [a]theisitc debate, what are peoples opinions on the above questions.

ColmDawson

Pro:
Not being counted as a member of an organisation with policies and teachings as factually and morally questionable as those of the RCC

Not being used by the RCC as a statistic in favour of its control of schools

Feeling a weight lift from your shoulders as you realise you no longer have to try and reconcile your membership of the RCC with its acts

roosh

ColmDawson wrote: »

Pro:
Not being counted as a member of an organisation with policies and teachings as factually and morally questionable as those of the RCC

Not being used by the RCC as a statistic in favour of its control of schools

Feeling a weight lift from your shoulders as you realise you no longer have to try and reconcile your membership of the RCC with its acts

cheers for the reply.

just with regard to the emboldened, how does this work? I'm not overly familiar with how the school system works, but my perception of it, is that there are schools which are run by the church and others which are run by the state.

I remember from primary school that we used to have regular vists from the local priests, and that it was largely through the school that our communion and confirmation were organised.

Is there an official link between the church and state run schools, or is it just a legacy from times of old?

the point suggests that the church use the statistic of their members to justify some sort of official link. Is this the case or how does it work?

ColmDawson

I'm pretty sure the parish priest is usually the chairman of the board of management and so has sway over appointments and promotions, as well as deciding the content of the religious education in the school. The more people claim to be Catholic (or don't bother defecting), the more schools the RCC can control.

Nevyn

mangaroosh wrote: »

cheers for the reply.

just with regard to the emboldened, how does this work? I'm not overly familiar with how the school system works, but my perception of it, is that there are schools which are run by the church and others which are run by the state.

I remember from primary school that we used to have regular vists from the local priests, and that it was largely through the school that our communion and confirmation were organised.

Is there an official link between the church and state run schools, or is it just a legacy from times of old?

the point suggests that the church use the statistic of their members to justify some sort of official link. Is this the case or how does it work?

92% of all primary school are 'Patroned' by the catholic church.
The link is current, in theses schools the parish priest is appointed to be the head of the board of management.


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/education/primary-and-post-primary-education/going-to-primary-school/ownership-of-primary-schools

The vast majority of primary schools in Ireland are privately owned and supported by the different churches. The State pays the bulk of the building and running costs and a local contribution is made towards the running costs.

Primary schools are privately owned - in general by the relevant church authorities. In the case of Catholic schools, the owners are usually the diocesan trustees; the same is true for Church of Ireland schools. Other denominational schools usually have a board of trustees nominated by the church authorities. Multi-denominational schools are usually owned by a limited company or board of trustees. Gaelscoileanna may be denominational and come under the same patronage as Catholic schools but some have their own limited company. Find out more about different types of primary schools here.

Where schools are on church own ground cannon law applies and opinions which opposes church doctrine can not be espoused which explains why we have no proper sex ed in our schools.

Glenster

Pros:

You're following your conscience, that'll give you a warm feeling.

You're sticking it to the man. Makes you feel big.


Cons:

You need a stamp.

People might find out about it.

This Church-State Nexus doesn't immediately fall apart, that might depress you.

PeterIanStaker

Why is people finding out a Con? Will the shopkeeper not sell the OP sliced pan and the morning paper if he finds out?

Nevyn

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

Why is people finding out a Con? Will the shopkeeper not sell the OP sliced pan and the morning paper if he finds out?

Nah that type of shunning a person and not providing them shelter, services, succor or any kindness is reserved for those who are excommunicated.

kiffer

... What would you have to do these days to get excommunicated?

kiffer

a trip to wiki land is most informative...

Funglegunk

kiffer wrote: »

a trip to wiki land is most informative...

Wikipedia wrote:

...excommunicated Catholics are still under obligation to attend Mass...

Pfff, what's the point in being excommunicated then?

kiffer

Yeah... It would take a lot of effort as well... You'd probably have to start off by making a name for yourself, readings every week, lots of involvement in church activitys so that people get used to you doling out religious wisdom... Things that are set catholic dogma... Then once you're a pillar of the community start abit of cult... Start off as a prayer group and then start messing with your readings... Make some Babylonian gods (Ishtar and Marduk) out to be angels... Then start promoting them outside the church ... By this stage they should have stopped asking you to do anything for you... No more readings but you'd have to keep pushing your crazy ideas... And claim it was valid catholic dogma, cherry pick bible verse and anything you can...
Man... Even writing about it is more effort then it's worth...
Of course they'll ask you to stop... Claim you have a calling to make this information known... Sit in the front row of mass every day don't disrupt the mass but afterwards talk about how it fits with your crazy idea... Now of course through out this you have to maintain an air of sanity so as not to look like a nut job that can be ignored.

It would take way too much work... And is not a sure thing.

ColmDawson

Someone who posts here (I can't remember who) got themselves excommunicated. They said it took about a year, if I remember correctly. If you're reading this, do you have any more details on it?

Dades

Pros: You might think you've done something to end church domination.

Cons: You probably haven't.

:pac:

Darlughda

What's the story with funerals?
Personally, I don't care, but if it happened that I went before my mother, the only way she could cope with a bereavement is the full catholic mass and burial in catholic graveyard.

I would not like to add to her distress while she is still alive, and something were to happen to me. Can anybody clarify what the situation here would be with defecting?

roosh

cheers for the replies.

I can imagine there probably would be a psychological effect of defection, which would almost make it worth doing.

I would be interested in finding out more, about how it could directly affect me/anyone in specific circumstances, as mentioned with funerals, schools or any other areas.

Also, it would be interesting to get an idea of how mass [pardon the unintentional pun] defection, would affect irish society, for example, would it lead to the removal of religion from school curricula, despite the fact that, as has been suggested, the church actually own a large number of schools?

Anyone know any articles or anything that I could check out on that?

Nevyn

Funglegunk wrote: »

Pfff, what's the point in being excommunicated then?

You can't be buried as a catholic or be expected to have any rites preform or take part in them until you get un excommunication and that is certainly not going to happen to me.

Check the reasons for automatic excommunication and if you are then you get in touch with the bishops office stating you are in a state of automatic excommunication but that you are unrepentant and keep at it until they process the documents. That is what I did.

I know someone else who took part in a documentary on witchcraft and paganism and found a letter arrived to her family home stating she was under investigation and a month later a writ of excommunication arrived with her name on it. I think the local parish priest was trying to send a warning shot
she had it gleefully framed.

checkyabadself

Has anyone got a picture of a defection/excommunication letter?
I`m still to post mine off so I`ll find out eventually, I`m just curious.

Mike 1972

ColmDawson wrote: »

Pro:Not being used by the RCC as a statistic in favour of its control of schools

I thought the census figures would be what theyd use for this purpose since the RCC's own baptisim records wouldnt take account of people moving in/out of the country (or dying in a parish other than the one in which they were born)

ColmDawson

Mike 1972 wrote: »

I thought the census figures would be what theyd use for this purpose since the RCC's own baptisim records wouldnt take account of people moving in/out of the country (or dying in a parish other than the one in which they were born)

Yeah, you're probably right. I suppose one could rephrase my point along the lines of "Pro: Not being counted as a general pro-Catholic statistic when you do not consider yourself a Catholic".

hiorta

All this record keeping of their victims details, yet the RCC profess to be interested only in 'spiritual welfare'.
This stuff is very sinister indeed.

Posy

As someone who doesn't count themselves a Catholic and is thinking of Getting Out-
How is a funeral performed- how do you get a non religious funeral? (even if I'm still a 'catholic' I have told my family I DO NOT want a catholic funeral but I know they would not have a clue how to go about this and neither do I!)

And, I have no intention of ever getting any children I may eventually have baptised- but will this totally restrict them getting into a school or can non-catholics go to catholic primary schools anyway?

Thanks!

Dades

Posy wrote: »

How is a funeral performed- how do you get a non religious funeral? (even if I'm still a 'catholic' I have told my family I DO NOT want a catholic funeral but I know they would not have a clue how to go about this and neither do I!)

Lots of thoughts in this thread.

Posy wrote: »

And, I have no intention of ever getting any children I may eventually have baptised- but will this totally restrict them getting into a school or can non-catholics go to catholic primary schools anyway?

Short answer: maybe.

However we don't want to derails this thread with more talk of schools (do a search in A&A) but suffice to say when you have a kid is the time and place to access the situation.

Nevyn

There are plently of ways to do a non reglious funeral, you can go down the route of a celebration of your life with the himanist soc or you can just have a gathering in the funeral home and then at the graveside and then off to the pub for pints and sambos.