Smart Grid, Electric Cars and V2G

Yitzhak Rabin

Hi Everyone, its my first time to post here, so apologies to anyone if the areas I want to discuss have already been done ad naseum.

Basically, in the last 3 months I've been researching the proposition of introducing a vehicle to grid service(V2G) for Ireland's national grid. Even though I've been on boards for a while now, the thought never crossed my mind to bounce ideas off people in this forum.

For anyone who doesn't know, V2G is basically, utilising the storage power of electrical vehicles to help stabilise the national grid. It can do so in a number of ways, from simply charging at night, in order to 'fill the valley' of low demand to selling the electricity back to the grid during peak demand to 'shave the peak'. Even without doing this, electric vehicles can help overcome the problem of spinning reserves, simply by being told to stop charging for a period.

I think that Ireland is in an excellent position to adopt this kind of integrated V2G smart grid in the short to medium term, as;

1. We are third rated 'smart ready' grid in the world, behind a US state, and an australian territory
2. We are set to become one of the first movers in adopting EV's, with the new ESB eCar initiative
3. We are set to have 40% of our energy come from renewable resources by 2020, and this goal could help to be met by V2G
4. We are already test running 6000 smart meters in the country, and initial feedback seems to be that it would be of great benefit to introduce them
5. We have a large IT knowledge base which would be able to develop the complex software needed to run V2G

There are lots more reasons that I can't think of off the top of my head. For anyone who wants a quick introduction to V2G, this video sums up the concept pretty well. (The V2G part starts around 2:30)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSdnycHfLnQ

I've met with the head of ESB's ecar initiative, and he was very positive about the idea, and thinks it would play a large part in Ireland meeting its emissions reductions, while also saving utility payers, and utility suppliers money.(I also got to drive the only commercial EV in the country, and it is savage, completely silent, basically no maintenance, had better acceleration than my own 1.9 VW Passat, I had read how good EV's had gotten, but I think you really need to drive one to see how good.)

I'd be interested to hear what people think about the subject. Both positive and negative(particularly negative, as its hard to find alot of drawbacks bar cost to the initiative)

Here is the first draft of my report on the subject for anyone who is interested.(Edit: Its too big to upload to boards, so anyone interested in reading it can email me)

Edit 2: I had to pick a prefix, but its really both Science and policy.)

gu10

is that EV the converted Peugeot expert by any chance? i think electric cars are great yokes but this smart grid has a lot of privacy issues. I really want to get an electric car but it feels like the Government will be out to spoil my fun, it seems like they have a massive stick waiting behind the current '5000e and almost no tax' carrot they have now

of course since the initiative is largely driven by the government there will be a lot of incentive to see exactly what kind of device is using power and all that. if it was a one-way smart grid then i wouldnt mind, but to me it seems like the first step to bringing in a system that will charge 2e per KWh to charge an electric car to make up for the short fall in petrol tax.

other unpopular things the government might try to bring in include 'pay per mile' GPS road charging. really now is the time to prevent 'big brother' features from getting into the system - if it is designed from the ground up to prevent this sort of stuff.

to me V2G doesn't seem like a good idea unless the electric cars are using ultra capacitors since normal batteries wear down a lot, making v2g power very expensive. it would be better to take all the knackered car batteries and shove them all into a warehouse somewhere and use them for peak-shaving until they are *completely* knackered then recycle.

Del2005

I've a few issues with Electric cars and V2G.

1. I live in an apartment so have no access to a plug so can't get an electric car.

2. We look like we are going with mainly wind as our green power. How will the V2G work when the wind dies down and the grid starts draining the power from my battery, if I could have an electric car, and I want to go out but have no juice? How am I supposed to go out if it takes ~30 min at what is going to be the most expensive time to bye electricity?

3. I most certainly want the price I get for any electricity taken from my battery to be much higher then the price I paid to charge it, since I'm saving the building of more power plants. But knowing this county it'll be the other way around.

4. What about blind people if all our vehicles are silent?

zod

Del2005 wrote: »

I've a few issues with Electric cars and V2G.

1. I live in an apartment so have no access to a plug so can't get an electric car.

thats fine there will be shared ones that you put your pin number to use into in the basement / car park

Del2005 wrote: »

2. We look like we are going with mainly wind as our green power. How will the V2G work when the wind dies down and the grid starts draining the power from my battery, if I could have an electric car, and I want to go out but have no juice? How am I supposed to go out if it takes ~30 min at what is going to be the most expensive time to bye electricity?

You dont have to sell your power, and if you do want to you can say leave the battery 70% full or only sell when the price goes above X or whatever you decide.. intelligent grid means you can make suit you.

Del2005 wrote: »

3. I most certainly want the price I get for any electricity taken from my battery to be much higher then the price I paid to charge it, since I'm saving the building of more power plants. But knowing this county it'll be the other way around.

You dont have to sell, you can decide when to sell .. ie if goes above a certain price..etc

Del2005 wrote: »

4. What about blind people if all our vehicles are silent?

Easiest one .. what noise would you like it to make ? A ferrari ? no problem, any noise can be linked to the acceleration pedal or RPM



Now can I sign you up ?

Del2005

zod wrote: »

thats fine there will be shared ones that you put your pin number to use into in the basement / car park

In an ideal world. Who's to pay to dig up all the pavements to place a charging point next to every 4th parking space, could start with a few but where and why when the government are trying to get us all to change? Then you have the fact that there will cables left lying around the pavements and the hazard of that with our claim culture. Along with theft and the wanton vandalism problem in this country.

You dont have to sell your power, and if you do want to you can say leave the battery 70% full or only sell when the price goes above X or whatever you decide.. intelligent grid means you can make suit you.



You dont have to sell, you can decide when to sell .. ie if goes above a certain price..etc

Is this official or your idea?

Now can I sign you up ?

I never said I disagreed.

I just don't believe most of the stuff being spouted about electric vehicles. If I though they'd keep the taxes as low as they are now when everyone changes then I'd be all for it, but motoring puts way too much money into the governments greedy paws for them to give it all up.

SeanW

I have a few major problems with electric cars:

1) Range and refuel times - with my diesel car, I can top up in 5 minutes and travel hundreds of miles. With an electric, the same top up would take 5 hours min and get me less than 100 miles.

2) Big Brother. "Road pricing" is currently paid for by tax on fuel. It works very simply: you pay per mile, road wear (and per gramme of C02) per litre of fuel and the two correlate most effectively.
With electric cars, there is no such mechanism, so the consensus is that GPS tracking would be the way to go. Unless we're really comfortable with a Leviathan Big Brother police state, this needs to be avoided at ALL costs, either by alternative sources of revenue, or a less invasive system - such as debits and credits on the recharging station or a less invasive form of mile/kilometer counter based on the odometer.

3) Noise: not just blind people, but in areas of minimal traffic (such as rural areas off the main roads) it is common for cat owners to allow their cats to roam partly free, chase mice, visit the neighbors, visit other cats etc. Although roads and cars (currently) are a hazard, the cats seem to have figured out that cars are deadly, and I'm almost sure they determine the safety of a crossing by sound. Without an engine noise, many of those cute kitties would be little furry speedbumps. As a "cat person" this is not something I favour.

4) Having recharging infrastructure out in the open sounds like a tempting target for vandals. Again, needs a root and branch review of justice to sort this out with harsh sentences (and preferably time on chain gangs) made mandatory for all types of scumbags.

Solve all these problems and my next car will be electric. Until then ...

Yitzhak Rabin

Hi all, thanks for all the replies.

I'll answer them to the best of my knowledge, and raise these concerns, and their possible solutions(if there is any) in my report.

@Gu10
No it was a mitsubishi, this one:


I understand the privacy issues with the smart grid. However, the ESB's main motivation would be so that they could save money, firstly by selling electricity that would otherwise have gone to waste during the night, and secondly by having a new supplier of energy for peak times.

There would be absolutely no onus on user to utilise their car to supply the grid at peak if they didn't want to, but it would be in their interest as they would earn a 'profit' by charging at night cheaply and then selling that same energy back to the grid at a premium during the peak. At the moment the way price paid for electricity to the grid is decided on a bidding basis, so each utility makes an 'offer' every half hour, and eirgrid chooses the best options to minimize the price it pays. During the peak, energy prices are high and very low at night. So the V2G system would see users enter this bidding process. Basically, you could tell your meter, dont sell energy, unless the price reaches, lets say 20c, that way you can insure you only get a high price for you energy, and charge it at a low price from about 10 in the evening til morning.

As for the GPS monitoring thing, I would also oppose such a measure. But I don't see how it would be necessary. They could just levy the price of electricity for charging, which I know would pi$$ alot of people off, but it would still be far cheaper, and far greener than buying petrol(which is levied anyway)

Agree about the problem that it may be hard on an electric vehicles car battery, and this is a major issue. However I think the plan would be to introduce 1 way V2G first whereby, cars are just ask to stop charging for a period which would at least solve the problem of spinning reserves. Then when car batteries have developed to be more robust we could look at 2 way V2G.

Your idea about using the old batteries for a second life, is one which is also being looked into and is imo a great idea. One of the scheme proposed would be that you never actually own your battery, but rather lease it, and when it is used it gets replaced and you continue leasing, and the old one is used in the fashion you described. Another idea, if that didn't work is the old ones could be left with their owners, who can then charge it at night cheaply, and then power their houses during peak hours on this cheap stored electricity.

@Del2005
As for living in an apartment, I presume if you have a car, then you have a space for it, and the ESB could install a chargepoint their connected to a central meter, with your own unique userid which you can access? Just a suggestion, don't know how feasible it would be. As for your concerns about the grid stealing your energy when its caught short. It wouldn't be able to unless you let it. You are the one who decides if you want to sell them energy and at what price, not them. And your concerns about not getting a fair price. I referred to it above in my response to Gu10, you would generally make a profit, as you charge cheaply and sell at peak price. As for deaf people, as Zog said, the cars could be fitted to make whatever noise you want if this was a major issue. As for things like cables lying around etc. I see those as very minor issues with simple solutions, but even if it were the case that a few people trip and sue, it would be miniscule to the savings from reducing our reliance on Saudi Oil, and solving peak problems and spinning reserves.

@Sean W
I agree that at the moment there is an issue with range. However 80% of journeys are under 20k. The majority of users the majority of the time won't need to travel long distance. There is also the possibility of using Plugin Hybrid EV's. Toyota Prius are bringing in one soon. This means you use the battery for as long as it lasts, then your fuel kicks in and charges the battery as you drive. This would solve the range issues and for most journeys would just use the electricity. But as I said even a full EV would suffice most of the time. Also if people need to remain on liquid fuel, there will be nothing to stop them from doing so. As I said earlier, I agree with your privacy concerns and believe that a system whereby your electricity usage for charging your vehicle would be the best measure of road taxation. As for vandal concerns, I see charge points as being no more of a target than a petrol station(infact a bit safer) or any other roadside device like a ticket machine etc. I'm sure there would be some cases of vandalism, but its hardly a reason to throw out the whole idea.

PHEW!! That was alot of typing. Hope that cleared up a few areas, and thanks again for feedback, and I'd welcome alot more, if people have it.

(Edit: Almost forgot the kitties! I would see no major problems in having the vehicles fitted with a 'noise maker' for want of a better word on the cars. We could even go seriously old school and put one of those clacker things I used to have on my bicycles onto them )

Del2005

yekahs wrote: »

@Del2005
As for living in an apartment, I presume if you have a car, then you have a space for it, and the ESB could install a chargepoint their connected to a central meter, with your own unique userid which you can access? Just a suggestion, don't know how feasible it would be. As for your concerns about the grid stealing your energy when its caught short. It wouldn't be able to unless you let it. You are the one who decides if you want to sell them energy and at what price, not them. And your concerns about not getting a fair price. I referred to it above in my response to Gu10, you would generally make a profit, as you charge cheaply and sell at peak price. As for deaf people, as Zog said, the cars could be fitted to make whatever noise you want if this was a major issue. As for things like cables lying around etc. I see those as very minor issues with simple solutions, but even if it were the case that a few people trip and sue, it would be miniscule to the savings from reducing our reliance on Saudi Oil, and solving peak problems and spinning reserves.

No assigned parking in my complex. Which still doesn't answer the question of who's going to pay to install all these charging points? I can't see my Management Company paying for them and I doubt many people in my complex will want an increased fee to pay for these.

I also think you are underestimating the vandalism and theft issues. The scum where I live destroy anything and everything, a charging point with several meters of high quality cable won't last long. Believe me, I hope I'm wrong but I'd rather raise these issues now so something may be able to be done about it then when it's too late.

The overall savings may huge, but my MC won't last very long if a few people sue for falling over cables as our public liability insurance will sky rocket. And I doubt anyone who is sued will think that it's for the greater good when they are paying higher premiums. Due to the nature of this system there's going to have to be trailing cables no mater how well the system is set up, just have a read of a few of the claims put in against any of the city/country councils and see how much it'll cost.

jacaranda

Del2005 wrote: »

No assigned parking in my complex. Which still doesn't answer the question of who's going to pay to install all these charging points? I can't see my Management Company paying for them and I doubt many people in my complex will want an increased fee to pay for these.

I also think you are underestimating the vandalism and theft issues. The scum where I live destroy anything and everything, a charging point with several meters of high quality cable won't last long. Believe me, I hope I'm wrong but I'd rather raise these issues now so something may be able to be done about it then when it's too late.

The overall savings may huge, but my MC won't last very long if a few people sue for falling over cables as our public liability insurance will sky rocket. And I doubt anyone who is sued will think that it's for the greater good when they are paying higher premiums. Due to the nature of this system there's going to have to be trailing cables no mater how well the system is set up, just have a read of a few of the claims put in against any of the city/country councils and see how much it'll cost.

It sounds as if you've just talked yourself out of an electric car! But just because you don't want one don;t assume others don't want them also!

Del2005

jacaranda wrote: »

It sounds as if you've just talked yourself out of an electric car! But just because you don't want one don;t assume others don't want them also!

No, I'm being realistic. If I could have one that didn't look crap I'd go for it. But there won't be anyway for me to have one for many years to come, the infrastructure just doesn't exist and won't for a long long time. I'd never stop anyone else getting one, once they start to look better!

Yitzhak Rabin

Del2005 wrote: »

No, I'm being realistic. If I could have one that didn't look crap I'd go for it. But there won't be anyway for me to have one for many years to come, the infrastructure just doesn't exist and won't for a long long time. I'd never stop anyone else getting one, once they start to look better!

I think some of the cars coming online look damn good!

Chevvy Volt


Opel Ampere


BYD


The Tesla

SeanW

I like the idea of an electric car, really (well electricity or hydrogen would be cool), but until the issues of government revenue, range and refill time (but in real terms range would be a non issue if the car could be recharged in the same time as a fill-up) are dealt with, the only way they will be adopted is through negative rationales, e.g. oil too expensive, instead of positive rationales, e.g. going electric for environmental reasons or for better functionality.

And I think it will happen in the near term (the cars getting better), at least I hope so, but they just seem somewhat impractical right now.

probe

gu10 wrote: »

other unpopular things the government might try to bring in include 'pay per mile' GPS road charging. really now is the time to prevent 'big brother' features from getting into the system - if it is designed from the ground up to prevent this sort of stuff.

You don't need GPS tracking for the state to tax electric cars on the basis of per km driven. The odometer can be read every time the vehicle goes for an NCT, and a charge of X c per km assessed. A periodic return/declaration of km driven using a website could be used to collect interim payments on account - with the overall amount validated during the NCT process.

probe

Del2005 wrote: »

No assigned parking in my complex. Which still doesn't answer the question of who's going to pay to install all these charging points? I can't see my Management Company paying for them and I doubt many people in my complex will want an increased fee to pay for these.

There is nothing to stop residents from allocating assigned spaces to cars that require charging. Where one has an assigned space, one can get a power point installed. The ESB should have (probably has?) a smart card charging solution which would allow one to charge on the street or in one's apartment building at a charging point using a chip card to authenticate the electricity charge to one's electricity account.

robtri

Del2005 wrote: »

No, I'm being realistic. If I could have one that didn't look crap I'd go for it. But there won't be anyway for me to have one for many years to come, the infrastructure just doesn't exist and won't for a long long time. I'd never stop anyone else getting one, once they start to look better!

what you dont have a plug at home to charge it????
it really is that simple....
long journeys use the train or bus...

Sesshoumaru

robtri wrote: »

long journeys use the train or bus...

If a government ever got in that tried to force people to use these transport methods for journeys over 100km, they'd be forced out at the next election. It will never happen!

Have you even considered that for some families train and bus is not practical or desirable no matter how well run and efficient they were? Taking a long journey in your car is far more practical & comfortable when have young children/babies.

We're not all young and single without the responsibility of children! Just because bus/train would suit you for a long journey, doesn't mean it would suit everybody.

Del2005

robtri wrote: »

what you dont have a plug at home to charge it????
it really is that simple....

I've loads of plugs. The car park is nowhere near the plugs and I doubt several hundred meters of cable running from my apartment across other people's doors is really viable.

long journeys use the train or bus...

If I had an electric car, with all the issues I've raised resolved, then if I needed to make long journeys I'd hire/borrow a car or take the bike.

Del2005

probe wrote: »

There is nothing to stop residents from allocating assigned spaces to cars that require charging. Where one has an assigned space, one can get a power point installed.

We don't have assigned spaces and the estates planning permission (PP) doesn't allow it.

We can't just start digging up our estate. It'd need to go the an EGM/AGM and be voted in. Then we'd need to get quotes. Then the Management Agent would have to mail all the unit owners asking for money to pay for this and then when the money is collected we'd need to apply for planning permission etc.

It took the Management Company 4 years after the complex was completed to paint the car parking lines, which was part of the original PP. I doubt we'd be able to get the footpaths dug up and recharge points installed any time soon.

The ESB should have (probably has?) a smart card charging solution which would allow one to charge on the street or in one's apartment building at a charging point using a chip card to authenticate the electricity charge to one's electricity account.

I would hope they have. Smart card charging should be done by default unless your using your own power point.

probe

Del2005 wrote: »

We don't have assigned spaces and the estates planning permission (PP) doesn't allow it.

We can't just start digging up our estate. It'd need to go the an EGM/AGM and be voted in. Then we'd need to get quotes. Then the Management Agent would have to mail all the unit owners asking for money to pay for this and then when the money is collected we'd need to apply for planning permission etc.

It took the Management Company 4 years after the complex was completed to paint the car parking lines, which was part of the original PP. I doubt we'd be able to get the footpaths dug up and recharge points installed any time soon.



I would hope they have. Smart card charging should be done by default unless your using your own power point.

My sympathies. You may have to wait until fuel hits €2 per litre before you get your neighbours into turning up to hold the necessary EGM to pass the regulations to change the parking arrangements, and perhaps put money in the kitty to buy the planning permission to install charging points. Ultimately the morons will wake up….. Especially when plug in hybrid cars become popular.

There is an apartment building in my neighbourhood which is all rented (ie controlled by a dozy corrupt insurance company) and they have a dirty deal with two cable TV companies that serve the area that prevents other telcos from providing service in the building. Everyone in the building is stuck with co-ax cable TV and slow internet with only two choices of supplier. Most other apartment buildings in the area have fibre for internet, TV, video on demand and radio etc.

In the current market there are a lot of vacant units in the building with co-ax only internet – because anyone in the market for an apartment will pick a building with fibre – whether they are renting or buying. Fibre adds a good few grand to the value of each apartment and makes it more saleable. I suspect the same problem will arise for apartment developments where local authorities use planning laws to prevent charging points being installed or where the apartment owners / developers / management companies are lethargic when it comes to keeping their development up to date by blocking owners/occupiers who want to use charging points.