Politicians' Pensions: where's the public outrage?

Dionysus

So now that the Bank of Ireland chief executive was correctly forced to surrender his right to take a €1.5 million pension top-up to retire at 55 (something Brian Lenihan approved of according to today's Irish Times), will we hear the same public clamour for all politicians who are in receipt of a ministerial pension to surrender them?

At the moment working politicians in receipt of Dáil, Seanad or EU salaries are entitled to receive their pensions while working. Yes, pensions while working. And massive ones at that. In the case of Máire Geoghegan Quinn, Ireland's current EU Commissioner, she's in receipt of two - yes, two - ministerial pensions from the Irish state. These two pensions give her €108,000 each year. This is on top of her current salary of €243,000. This is crazy, absolutely crazy. At a time when this state is telling public servants that their contracts, their pension entitlements, are being unilaterally changed by the government it is disgusting that the same government says they cannot do the same for politicians' pensions. The hypocrisy is offensive in the extreme.

Furthermore, for the vast majority of people in this country, pensions are something you receive at 65 years of age. Ironically, the government is trying to raise the pension age for the rest of us to 68 years of age, while allowing themselves to take a state pension immediately after they leave office, which could be at 40 years of age. Politicians have legislated so that they can receive these lucrative pensions while remaining as TDs or working in any other job. Obscene, truly obscene.

How can this government expect a single public servant to accept any cutbacks when the politicians have created an amazingly secure and lucrative salary and pension system for themselves that is infinitely superior to any of the rights and privileges that they are demanding other workers give up?

Revealed: Irish Politicians who refuse to give back their pensions

Fine Gael critical of Geoghegan-Quinn as pensions question ends interview


So, my two questions: Why are Irish people not on the streets (as the French and most other Europeans would be) at this latest blatant two fingers to the electorate? Furthermore, what moral authority does the government of Ireland possess to demand that public servants accept pay and pension cuts when politicians themselves refuse to lead by example on their own far, far, far more lucrative pensions and salaries?

Posy

Dionysus wrote: »

Politicians' Pensions: where's the public outrage?

Grr. :mad:

Michaelrsh

Let's all go out and protest and invade the Dáil and cause millions of €uro in damages ... YAR!!

El Weirdo

Was that Indo article written by a 12 year old on work experience? Shocking.

Mark200

I'm pretty sure it would be against the law for the Government to withhold these pensions.

Although some of the ministers should give some of it back, yeah.

galwayrush

Can i build the gallows?:rolleyes:

Jay D

when the hell are Irish people going to learn we're a nation of fcuking cry babies and never achieve anything through protest outrage etc?

Outrage needs to be stepped up a gear and I would love something similar to what happened in Thailand recently to happen here. Public execution to follow would be an ideal icing on the cake for me personally. That would be a dream come true.

Rotting to the core. Civil servants doing f all then going on "strike" and doing more f all.

Corrupt social workers, police, politicians among many others.
We've no one imposing accountability for anything. Imagine what happened in the uk recently was to happen here? If in the US do you think these fcukwits would still be walking the street never mind working in such a highly paid job...

Ireland is a fcuking pathetic joke.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Funny.

I've just watched an epidosdee of Malcolm in the middle where Lois's Mum drugged to all into a happy stupor so she could get married without anyone objecting.

I can't help draw parallels.

PeakOutput

Dionysus wrote: »

So now that the Bank of Ireland chief executive was correctly forced to surrender

he wasnt forced he chose to so he could get on with his job


and as for the rest of your post its a decentish point accept for the fact that anyone can receive a pension while working not just politicians

also i think td and seanad pension reform has gone threw the dail and will be in place for the next goverment but wont be retroactively enforced but im open to correction on that

bobblepuzzle

Being a CEO of any medium to large company is an extremely difficult and time consuming job even in the best of times. They are running a company after all... and this includes banks. Hence, this is why CEO's get great salaries. I get the feeling from a lot of people that they think that these new CEO's of the banks are sitting on their arses doing feck all and getting paid big bucks for it... Nothing could be further from the truth.

Now obviously the old crew of these institutions were downright imcompetent and deserved to be fecked out on their ears and they should've had their bonuses cancelled, nobody would question that...

But the first line of this thread is about Richie Bouchers pension... he's a CEO of a large bank with a lot of responsibility on his shoulders and as I said already he's one of the new guys sent in to clean up the mess his gob****e predecessors left. Extremely tough job if you ask me, and deserving of excellent renumeration if he is doing a good job. Granted, a €1.5 million euro pension is a bit steep but I don't believe he should have been forced to give up all of it.

bonzodog2

Personally I think if they are getting a ministerial pension, they shouldn't be getting the TD one as well. Also they shouldn't be getting any pension before say, 55 y/o

Odysseus

Jay D wrote: »

Corrupt social workers,

I not getting into a public service debate; however, can you explain the above?

RMD

Well done, posting on boards will certainly change things. I hear FF build there policies based around AH posts.

galwayrush

RMD wrote: »

Well done, posting on boards will certainly change things. I hear FF build there policies based around AH posts.

The're not that intelligent.:eek:

Kristopherus

Tar.Aldarionftw wrote: »

Being a CEO of any medium to large company is an extremely difficult and time consuming job even in the best of times. They are running a company after all... and this includes banks. Hence, this is why CEO's get great salaries. I get the feeling from a lot of people that they think that these new CEO's of the banks are sitting on their arses doing feck all and getting paid big bucks for it... Nothing could be further from the truth.

Now obviously the old crew of these institutions were downright imcompetent and deserved to be fecked out on their ears and they should've had their bonuses cancelled, nobody would question that...

But the first line of this thread is about Richie Bouchers pension... he's a CEO of a large bank with a lot of responsibility on his shoulders and as I said already he's one of the new guys sent in to clean up the mess his gob****e predecessors left. Extremely tough job if you ask me, and deserving of excellent renumeration if he is doing a good job. Granted, a €1.5 million euro pension is a bit steep but I don't believe he should have been forced to give up all of it.

Good post. What I would like to see is the politicians treated in the same way as your ordinary PS. If a PS retires at say 60, with 40 yrs service, as they are currently entitled to do, and then get another job in the Public Service, their pension from the first job is suspended, until they retire from the second job. That is assuming the salary from the second job is higher than the pension.If not, then a pro rata reduction in the pension applies.

kraggy

OP, what do you think about a retired garda or soldier or any other public sector retiree getting their pension while working in a new job after retirement?

Herb Powell

cnuts, the lot of them.

Kristopherus

kraggy wrote: »

OP, what do you think about a retired garda or soldier or any other public sector retiree getting their pension while working in a new job after retirement?

Well, they can do what they like once they leave the PS. Same as any private sector worker can do after they go on pension. The problem with the politicians is that they are classed as public servants, yet can work in the PS with no penalty, whereas the ordinary PS cannot. Nobody would have a quibble if they had the pensions suspended while still a TD.

Herb Powell

Kristopherus wrote: »

Well, they can do what they like once they leave the PS. Same as any private sector worker can do after they go on pension. The problem with the politicians is that they are classed as public servants, yet can work in the PS with no penalty, whereas the ordinary PS cannot. Nobody would have a quibble if they had the pensions suspended while still a TD.

lol who thought it was a good idea to use "PS" as an abbreviation, when public and private both obviously start with a p?

Seloth

kraggy wrote: »

OP, what do you think about a retired garda or soldier or any other public sector retiree getting their pension while working in a new job after retirement?

Thats a really good point.

Look a government is pretty much a large business,your tax's are the fee's you pay for them to take care of and build roads,Provide healthcare,Security etc.
These politicans arent actually sitting around doind nothing,they are trying to ssort out things,Now obviously a person such as a TD or what not that is recieving a pension while still on the job is one thing but if they have moved to a new line of career than fair play let it be.These people are getting paid allot for a reason,they have allot of work,allot of responsability and a hell of allot of stress.In TY I did work exp for a Minster/TD...He was up for two days straight working and I read a rant on this not long ago about how said person does no work...Jaysus just because what they do isnt broadcasted in every detail dosent mean they arent doing anything,Just because a situation isnt sorted out this very second dosent mean it isnt being slowly improved or worked on..D'you honestly not see how things are slowly improving.

And for petes sake,I'm nly 18 but atleast I'm gratful for the country and government I live in despite this recession and it hs ****ed over myself and my family but atleast were not being oppresed every second and such.In North Korea the Finance minister was executed!...Why because they felt he was functional enough..Be thankful you dont live in a place like that.Sure things are a bit ****e atm and people are loosing jobs and all that which does effin suck but its only temporary,nothing last forever!

Excuse any spelling errors and such please

Herb Powell

Seloth wrote: »

Thats a really good point.

Look a government is pretty much a large business,your tax's are the fee's you pay for them to take care of and build roads,Provide healthcare,Security etc.
These politicans arent actually sitting around doind nothing,they are trying to ssort out things,Now obviously a person such as a TD or what not that is recieving a pension while still on the job is one thing but if they have moved to a new line of career than fair play let it be.These people are getting paid allot for a reason,they have allot of work,allot of responsability and a hell of allot of stress.In TY I did work exp for a Minster/TD...He was up for two days straight working and I read a rant on this not long ago about how said person does no work...Jaysus just because what they do isnt broadcasted in every detail dosent mean they arent doing anything,Just because a situation isnt sorted out this very second dosent mean it isnt being slowly improved or worked on..D'you honestly not see how things are slowly improving.

And for petes sake,I'm nly 18 but atleast I'm gratful for the country and government I live in despite this recession and it hs ****ed over myself and my family but atleast were not being oppresed every second and such.In North Korea the Finance minister was executed!...Why because they felt he was functional enough..Be thankful you dont live in a place like that.Sure things are a bit ****e atm and people are loosing jobs and all that which does effin suck but its only temporary,nothing last forever!

Excuse any spelling errors and such please

and when you think like that they win.
but yeah things could be a lot worse

DublinWriter

El Weirdo wrote: »

Was that Indo article written by a 12 year old on work experience? Shocking.

No, just wrote to be understood by an audience with the literacy level of a 12 year old.

Dionysus

DublinWriter wrote: »

No, just wrote to be understood by an audience with the literacy level of a 12 year old.

Dionysus

Herb Powell wrote: »

and when you think like that they win.

Precisely. There's a long-standing school of thought in this society, the 'Ara sure, it could be worse'. If 100,000 people were killed in a crash on the M50 a large portion of this society would inevitably come out with 'Ara sure it could be worse'/'Be grateful for small mercies'. If change of government were proposed as a solution to current problems, the same people would utter the classically fatalistic 'Better the devil you know' mantra as a reason for not changing.

Drives me ballistic.

Seloth

Herb Powell wrote: »

and when you think like that they win.
but yeah things could be a lot worse

By saying that it seems as if your comparing Irish politics to American politics when the two systems are completly diffrentt,the US one being more capitalist but saying as I did above but infact we do have it good.

By all means certain people should figurativly be strung up,The biggest blame seemingly is Bertie,he obviously saw this coming and took the life boat off the sinking ship place Cowen suddenly incharge.

Bleh tbh I think Ministers,TD's and the taoisach should all be voted seperatly.

Herb Powell

Seloth wrote: »

By saying that it seems as if your comparing Irish politics to American politics when the two systems are completly diffrentt,the US one being more capitalist but saying as I did above but infact we do have it good.

By all means certain people should figurativly be strung up,The biggest blame seemingly is Bertie,he obviously saw this coming and took the life boat off the sinking ship place Cowen suddenly incharge.

Bleh tbh I think Ministers,TD's and the taoisach should all be voted seperatly.

?

Seloth

Bleh tis a long explanation and about to eat XD

Herb Powell

Seloth wrote: »

Bleh tis a long explanation and about to eat XD

pm me later sure

Hugo Drax

Dionysus wrote: »

So now that the Bank of Ireland chief executive was correctly forced to surrender his right to take a €1.5 million pension top-up to retire at 55 (something Brian Lenihan approved of according to today's Irish Times), will we hear the same public clamour for all politicians who are in receipt of a ministerial pension to surrender them?

At the moment working politicians in receipt of Dáil, Seanad or EU salaries are entitled to receive their pensions while working. Yes, pensions while working. And massive ones at that. In the case of Máire Geoghegan Quinn, Ireland's current EU Commissioner, she's in receipt of two - yes, two - ministerial pensions from the Irish state. These two pensions give her €108,000 each year. This is on top of her current salary of €243,000. This is crazy, absolutely crazy. At a time when this state is telling public servants that their contracts, their pension entitlements, are being unilaterally changed by the government it is disgusting that the same government says they cannot do the same for politicians' pensions. The hypocrisy is offensive in the extreme.

Furthermore, for the vast majority of people in this country, pensions are something you receive at 65 years of age. Ironically, the government is trying to raise the pension age for the rest of us to 68 years of age, while allowing themselves to take a state pension immediately after they leave office, which could be at 40 years of age. Politicians have legislated so that they can receive these lucrative pensions while remaining as TDs or working in any other job. Obscene, truly obscene.

How can this government expect a single public servant to accept any cutbacks when the politicians have created an amazingly secure and lucrative salary and pension system for themselves that is infinitely superior to any of the rights and privileges that they are demanding other workers give up?

Revealed: Irish Politicians who refuse to give back their pensions

Fine Gael critical of Geoghegan-Quinn as pensions question ends interview


So, my two questions: Why are Irish people not on the streets (as the French and most other Europeans would be) at this latest blatant two fingers to the electorate? Furthermore, what moral authority does the government of Ireland possess to demand that public servants accept pay and pension cuts when politicians themselves refuse to lead by example on their own far, far, far more lucrative pensions and salaries?

They're not breaking any laws, just taking what they're entitled to. This is the system that's operated in Ireland for decades, we elected these people, no point complaining now....

Dionysus

kraggy wrote: »

OP, what do you think about a retired garda or soldier or any other public sector retiree getting their pension while working in a new job after retirement?

If a garda retires after 30 years he will get a pension proportionate with that service and is therefore entitled to add to that income. In sharp contrast, if a 45-year-old minister leaves his or her government department after 2 years he/she gets a pension that is 60% of his/her ministerial salary. In Geoghegan Quinn's case she has been getting two ministerial pensions every single year since she was last a government minister, in 1994. In 2010 the value of those two pensions is €108,000. In 1994, when she last worked as a minister, she was 44 years old. For this annual €108,000 pension ever since 1996 she served a total of two years as a government minister (see here). Two years work and she receives a pension of €108,000 every year from the age of 46 until she dies. Hello?

Are you really, really trying to contend that this system of ministerial pensions is comparable with the situation of a retired member of An Garda Síochána who gave 20 or 30 years of his life to that job?

Dionysus

Hugo Drax wrote: »

They're not breaking any laws, just taking what they're entitled to. This is the system that's operated in Ireland for decades, we elected these people, no point complaining now....

Seeing as they did make the laws ...

Seeing that the same people who made these laws to defend their own pensions and salaries are the people who are now demanding that teachers, gardaí and all the rest have their pensions unilaterally reduced the hypocrisy is, obviously, very relevant.

In terms of cutbacks, what moral authority do Lenihan and company have to demand from others what they are unwilling to give themselves? The gall of them to even attempt such cutbacks.

Hugo Drax

Dionysus wrote: »

Seeing as they did make the laws ...

Seeing that the same people who made these laws to defend their own pensions and salaries are the people who are now demanding that teachers, gardaí and all the rest have their pensions unilaterally reduced the hypocrisy is, obviously, very relevant.

What moral authority does Lenihan and company have to demand from others what they are unwilling to give themselves?

The fact is that their still not breaking any laws, and the fact is that all the teachers and gardai who are complaing now voted FF at the last election, and at the next election - they will again.

FF have many problems but the Irish people have seen fit to have them ruling this state for the majority of it's existance and barring an absolutley seismic shift in voting trends (which won't happen), they will continue to rule.

Irish people will moan but they'll vote FF every time.

FF are in the driving seat thanks to the Greens, who'll continue to keep them in power and by the time 2012 rolls around it'll all be forgotten and FF will be topping the polls again right in time for the next election

Dionysus

Hugo Drax wrote: »

and the fact is that all the teachers and gardai who are complaing now voted FF at the last election

So "all" teachers and "all" gardaí voted Fianna Fáil? I see.

Hugo Drax wrote: »

The fact is that their still not breaking any laws

This is relevant how? And why are you hiding behind "law" and avoiding the fact that maintaining this system in the current environment of public cutbacks is indefensible?


The fact that they made laws which benefit themselves enormously and refuse to change these laws while unilaterally rewriting all pension and salary contracts with the rest of the public service (bar the senior civil servants who were critical in getting us into this mess; naturally enough these geniuses received a pay rise) has left them with no moral authority in negotiation with the public sector unions.

This government's "Do as I say not as I do" policy will, hopefully, bring all the unions together to bring it down, as well as politicians like Richard Bruton who continue to claim huge pensions annually for a couple of years ministerial work done decades ago.

yoshytoshy

Politicians are great ,they ruin countries!

Hugo Drax

Dionysus wrote: »

So "all" teachers and "all" gardaí voted Fianna Fáil? I see.




This is relevant how? And why are you hiding behind "law" and avoiding the fact that maintaining this system in the current environment of public cutbacks is indefensible?


The fact that they made laws which benefit themselves enormously and refuse to change these laws while unilaterally rewriting all pension and salary contracts with the rest of the public service (bar the senior civil servants who were critical in getting us into this mess; naturally enough these geniuses received a pay rise) has left them with no moral authority in negotiation with the public sector unions.

None of the moral indignation or public outrage has made the Govt alter course or change their policies. The fact is that this years budget will be far harsher and so will the one after that.

Nobody knows exactly why but the number one priority to this Govt is Anglo Irish....

You may be upset but a majority of Irish people at the last election voted FF and they have a mandate to rule.

FF are merely following their own economic policies, if the Irish people don't like it they shouldn't have voted for them.

yoshytoshy

I'd say without a shadow of a doubt ,many government members used the banks like we did.

I'm sure they want to keep as much of their ill gotten gains as possible.
If they weren't paid the crazy money their on ,they wouldn't have as much to loose by letting banks go to the wall.
Vulchers they are.

Hugo Drax

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I'd say without a shadow of a doubt ,many government members used the banks like we did.

I'm sure they want to keep as much of their ill gotten gains as possible.
If they weren't paid the crazy money their on ,they wouldn't have as much to loose by letting banks go to the wall.
Vulchers they are.

The only thing that seems clear is that free market capitalism is now dead and buried in this country.

Billions of tax payers money has been given to private companies to keep them afloat.

yoshytoshy

Off the cuff ,I'd say hiring people to run the country who aren't under pressure to hold onto overpriced property is the best thing any country can do.

Zebra3

According to one of today's papers Geoghegan-Quinn has four houses.

I can't wait for FF to be wiped out at the next election.

Dionysus

Zebra3 wrote: »

According to one of today's papers Geoghegan-Quinn has four houses.

I can't wait for FF to be wiped out at the next election.

Unbelievable. But then again Máire Geoghegan-Quinn has been getting a €108,000 pension every year since she was 46 years old (1996) for working for two years as a government minister in two departments (1992-1994). (this was on top of the severance payment which she received between 1994 and 1996)


Two fúcking years of work! It's utterly indefensible any time, never mind a recession when government politicians are brazenly demanding everybody else take cuts.

aDeener

Hugo Drax wrote: »

The fact is that their still not breaking any laws, and the fact is that all the teachers and gardai who are complaing now voted FF at the last election, and at the next election - they will again.

FF have many problems but the Irish people have seen fit to have them ruling this state for the majority of it's existance and barring an absolutley seismic shift in voting trends (which won't happen), they will continue to rule.

Irish people will moan but they'll vote FF every time.

FF are in the driving seat thanks to the Greens, who'll continue to keep them in power and by the time 2012 rolls around it'll all be forgotten and FF will be topping the polls again right in time for the next election

Now im as big a bond fan as the next fella but moonraker was a shocking film

Noreen1

Hugo Drax wrote: »

FF have many problems but the Irish people have seen fit to have them ruling this state for the majority of it's existance and barring an absolutley seismic shift in voting trends (which won't happen), they will continue to rule.

Irish people will moan but they'll vote FF every time.

FF are in the driving seat thanks to the Greens, who'll continue to keep them in power and by the time 2012 rolls around it'll all be forgotten and FF will be topping the polls again right in time for the next election

There was an absolutely seismic shift in voting trends at the local elections.
In 2012,the current Government will not be in a financial position to offer "candy bars" to the voting public, thus one of their favourite pre-election techniques will be denied to them.

I don't believe the electorate will forget that the Greens kept FF in government when they were challenged after the local election. I doubt that they will be forgiven easily by the public for the (perceived) slight on the Democratic wishes of the people.

FF are effectively using the Green Party as stooges when it comes to unpopular taxes eg. Water Rates. I believe this will ultimately backfire, since they will have one less party to form a Coalition with.

The reality is, FF have not had a political mandate from the majority of voters for quite some time - they have merely been more adept than other parties at currying enough support from minority parties and Independants to form a Government.

I rather suspect that public anger is not going to disappear in two years due to continueing cutbacks.

Therefore, I cannot forsee, even in my wildest nightmares, that FF will form the next Government.

Noreen

Bersouth

Dionysus wrote: »

So now that the Bank of Ireland chief executive was correctly forced to surrender his right to take a €1.5 million pension top-up to retire at 55 (something Brian Lenihan approved of according to today's Irish Times), will we hear the same public clamour for all politicians who are in receipt of a ministerial pension to surrender them?

At the moment working politicians in receipt of Dáil, Seanad or EU salaries are entitled to receive their pensions while working. Yes, pensions while working. And massive ones at that. In the case of Máire Geoghegan Quinn, Ireland's current EU Commissioner, she's in receipt of two - yes, two - ministerial pensions from the Irish state. These two pensions give her €108,000 each year. This is on top of her current salary of €243,000. This is crazy, absolutely crazy. At a time when this state is telling public servants that their contracts, their pension entitlements, are being unilaterally changed by the government it is disgusting that the same government says they cannot do the same for politicians' pensions. The hypocrisy is offensive in the extreme.

Furthermore, for the vast majority of people in this country, pensions are something you receive at 65 years of age. Ironically, the government is trying to raise the pension age for the rest of us to 68 years of age, while allowing themselves to take a state pension immediately after they leave office, which could be at 40 years of age. Politicians have legislated so that they can receive these lucrative pensions while remaining as TDs or working in any other job. Obscene, truly obscene.

How can this government expect a single public servant to accept any cutbacks when the politicians have created an amazingly secure and lucrative salary and pension system for themselves that is infinitely superior to any of the rights and privileges that they are demanding other workers give up?

Revealed: Irish Politicians who refuse to give back their pensions

Fine Gael critical of Geoghegan-Quinn as pensions question ends interview


So, my two questions: Why are Irish people not on the streets (as the French and most other Europeans would be) at this latest blatant two fingers to the electorate? Furthermore, what moral authority does the government of Ireland possess to demand that public servants accept pay and pension cuts when politicians themselves refuse to lead by example on their own far, far, far more lucrative pensions and salaries?

I agree it is obscene to see a well paid Eu official have also a 100k state pension. That much money would keep 9 single people on a Fas schem or Rural Social scheme........

Son Of A Vidic

Sheep are there to be herded and sadly there are to many sheep in this country.

Dudess

OP (and all the others who have started such threads): why haven't YOU taken to the streets? Why do the "people" you're referring to not include you?

FlutterinBantam

You don't need to take to the streets for everything.

Pressure is a lot more subtle than that,witness Mr Boucher's climb down and the intense pressure on MGQ, and a harsh light being shone on other politicians with reference to pension entitlements.

I would be totally against serving politicians getting pensions while they are still office holders or Govt. employees, but what gets on my wick even more is this attitude of Michael D Higgins who apparently is 'using his pension to fund projects in Africa'

What a load of crud.The issue is that the taxpayer should get the benefit of non claiming of pensions.

I have no problem with foreign aid, but Higgins has some neck if he thinks the hard pressed taxpayer will thank him for that 'gesture'.