L driver, driving on own

jack888

Im an L driver. Waiting to do my test.

I want to drive on my own, what would the punishment be if I was caught.

What happens if you are in an accident. Insurance wise.

PARKHEAD67

jack888 wrote: »

Im an L driver. Waiting to do my test.

I want to drive on my own, what would the punishment be if I was caught.

What happens if you are in an accident. Insurance wise.

Id say they wouldnt pay out.No way would I chance it if I were you.When I was a L not too long ago I did drive on my own but everyone did.Wait for the test is my advice.Imagine crashing into a new merc,audi etc. and the insurance company telling you to F.O. coz you didnt have an accompanied driver. Im sounding like an aul man now.

kirving

Well the Gardaí can fine you up to €1000 I think, possibly more. Apparently 6000 people have been caught(in the newspaper recently), but I dont know if all of these have recieved the huge fine.

You are still insured driving on your own though. However, the insurance company may come after you for anymoney they have to pay out, citing that what you were doing was illegal. Yery similar situation to someone who is drink driving, or speeding.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

PCPhoto

insurance wise I would guess you have some bit of cover in the event that you crash into someone.

However, if stopped by gardai - you could face a court appearance/fine .... if the gardai deem it necessary they could take the car (possibly a rare case which would possibly involve you giving them a lot of grief/cheeky responses at checkpoint....or even if you caught a garda who was hell bent on teaching you a lesson)

it is illegal for you to drive unaccompanied - and you face serious problems if caught....but there are plenty of fully qualified drivers out there who are probably worse drivers but they are still on the roads.

Waternews

Your insurance will be invalidated. You won't have a hope of a cent in case of a claim. And you may be excluded from getting insurance from that company again - which you have to disclose, and pretty much giving you a factor of 10 for any new insurance.

With regards to the Gardai - I suspect it will depend on who/when/and why they pull you over - but expect them to be extremely stern with you, if you're not "known" to them - and the full court procedure.

Just apply for the test and get someone to sit in the passenger seat.
It's not that long a wait (in the scheme of life!) - and if you're caught you'll have 5 years of consequences. Not worth it IMHO.

PARKHEAD67

PCPhoto wrote: »

insurance wise I would guess you have some bit of cover in the event that you crash into someone.

However, if stopped by gardai - you could face a court appearance/fine .... if the gardai deem it necessary they could take the car (possibly a rare case which would possibly involve you giving them a lot of grief/cheeky responses at checkpoint....or even if you caught a garda who was hell bent on teaching you a lesson)

it is illegal for you to drive unaccompanied - and you face serious problems if caught....but there are plenty of fully qualified drivers out there who are probably worse drivers but they are still on the roads.

Couldnt agree more with the last sentence. I like the ads on tv bout roundabouts.So many old skool people would fail the driving test its unreal.My mother didnt even do a test back in the day but they gave her a full licence.Shes brutal.Trust me!!

Richie15

Not that I'd encourage you to drive alone, but I know you're going to anyway, so at least make sure you're insured.

There are only two ways to be sure of this: either check every single word of your certificate of insurance and policy document, and everything else that forms part of your contract, written, verbal or implied, with your insurer; or ring and ask them.

kleefarr

If you're in your second year as a learner, aren't you permitted to drive on your own?

Not since a few years ago - the rules were changed!

kleefarr

Ah, right. Thanks.

Glad I checked that out, wife is coming up for her second year and we were already to let her loose on her own until she takes her test. :rolleyes:

Waternews

Not that I'd encourage you to drive alone, but I know you're going to anyway, so at least make sure you're insured.

There are only two ways to be sure of this: either check every single word of your certificate of insurance and policy document, and everything else that forms part of your contract, written, verbal or implied, with your insurer; or ring and ask them.

Listen - not being funny here but if you are on L plates and on your own, you are driving illegally and your insurance is invalid. end of. regardless of what you think you are reading in the policy. Insurance companies don't pay out unless they have to.

Teddy Daniels

Dónal wrote: »

Not since a few years ago - the rules were changed!

You were never allowed to drive in your second year as a learner!

Richie15

kleefarr wrote: »

If you're in your second year as a learner, aren't you permitted to drive on your own?

Until November* 2007 you could drive on your second Provisional Licence. As each Provisional Licence / Learner Permit lasts two years, that means you couldn't drive alone until your third year. This was changed, and at the same time harsher penalties for non-compliance were brought in and enforcement became more strict.

Bottom line, no-one can drive a car, truck or bus on a Learner Permit without an accompanying driver.
If you've no-one to accompany you, get a bike or a tractor. Or pass your driving test.

*Might've been October, but that's not the important part anyway.

Michael B

I was told by my insurance company that I was covered regardless of if I was alone or not if I crashed in to someone while on my learner permit. I've since recently passed my test but I made sure of that while I was driving unaccompanied. Well my insurance company (Allianz) and my girlfriend's (FBD) confirmed this to us anyway.

Richie15

Mine did aswell, but the point is you have to confirm.

Del2005

Michael B wrote: »

I was told by my insurance company that I was covered regardless of if I was alone or not if I crashed in to someone while on my learner permit. I've since recently passed my test but I made sure of that while I was driving unaccompanied. Well my insurance company (Allianz) and my girlfriend's (FBD) confirmed this to us anyway.

Richie15 wrote: »

Mine did aswell, but the point is you have to confirm.

The person on the phone will say this. But what they don't say is that if you are driving outside the terms of you licence/permit they are perfectly entitled to sue you for any money paid out in a claim.

That's not what you pay €000s for.

daveharnett

Waternews wrote: »

Listen - not being funny here but if you are on L plates and on your own, you are driving illegally and your insurance is invalid. end of. regardless of what you think you are reading in the policy. Insurance companies don't pay out unless they have to.

Can you cite some evidence for this?

The Irish insurers have publicly stated that they will cover unaccompanied learners, no ifs or buts. (Link)

The collective attitude of the insurance industry is that they will have to pay for the claims anyway (through MIBI), so there's no sense in discouraging learners from paying their premiums.

flynnlives

You are insuranced. End of.

You are guilty of a criminal offence tho but ur still insured.

jhegarty

Del2005 wrote: »

The person on the phone will say this. But what they don't say is that if you are driving outside the terms of you licence/permit they are perfectly entitled to sue you for any money paid out in a claim.

That's not what you pay €000s for.

I dare you to post one case of this happening.

spurious

As a learner driver, I hope to start as I mean to go on, doing my utmost to obey the rules and be a safe driver.

I don't care if I would be covered by my insurance or if everyone is doing it, or if all the rest of them are maniacs on the road. The law is there for a reason - it's not for me to pick and choose which bits I'll pay heed to.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Richie15

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Oh yeh, I remember now. Cheers!

Del2005

jhegarty wrote: »

I dare you to post one case of this happening.

I don't need to. All I'm doing is informing the OP of the risks of driving unaccompanied on a learners permit. Which is what they asked.

Don't forget that it was 2 years ago when they changed the law on permits, yet they didn't start bringing people to court for it till much later.

The insurance companies aren't making as much profit as they used to and are increasing premiums. When do you think the bean counters will realise that they are paying out money they don't have to and start to clamp down on people driving outside the terms of their licence/permit? Which unless I've watched too many UK police shows means you don't have a licence/permit.

Would it be better for the OP not to be aware of this, and potentially get hit with a large claim, or make an informed decision based on all facts?

seanybiker

OP obviously none of us over done it.
To be honest. You will get a telling off from the cop and off ya go on your way.

daveharnett

Del2005 wrote: »

The insurance companies aren't making as much profit as they used to and are increasing premiums. When do you think the bean counters will realise that they are paying out money they don't have to and start to clamp down on people driving outside the terms of their licence/permit?

The bean counters are smarter than you give them credit. A large percentage of learner drivers are still driving unaccompanied. If an insurance company were to take action against one of it's learners, they would lose a huge amount of business. It would cost them way more than they would gain from slow expensive legal actions against usually broke young people.

Del2005 wrote: »

Would it be better for the OP not to be aware of this, and potentially get hit with a large claim, or make an informed decision based on all facts?

No facts here, just conjecture. That the insurance company could sue a customer (against their own medium term interests), and might be able to secure a judgement.

Richie15

seanybiker wrote: »

You will get a telling off from the cop and off ya go on your way.

...if you're polite about it.

Del2005 wrote: »

...start to clamp down on people driving outside the terms of their licence/permit? Which unless I've watched too many UK police shows means you don't have a licence/permit.

Not a direct quote because I haven't got the certificate in front of me, but my policy covers something to the effect of "someone who has a licence or, having held one, is not disqualified from holding a licence." To me that would mean someone whose licence has expired and not yet been renewed. This person would technically be driving without a licence, and yet would still be insured. If that's true of someone with an expired full licence, why not an unaccompanied learner?

Del2005

daveharnett wrote: »

The bean counters are smarter than you give them credit. A large percentage of learner drivers are still driving unaccompanied. If an insurance company were to take action against one of it's learners, they would lose a huge amount of business. It would cost them way more than they would gain from slow expensive legal actions against usually broke young people.

No facts here, just conjecture. That the insurance company could sue a customer (against their own medium term interests), and might be able to secure a judgement.

The OP asked a question. I've merely pointed out one of the risks of driving unaccompanied on a learners permit. It doesn't bother me in the slightest if all the learners are doing it or not.

The fact is that if you are driving outside the terms of your licence/permit the insurance company will pay any 3rd party claims. They are also perfectly entitled to come back after you to reclaim any money paid out.

It won't be an expensive legal action as it's cut and dry, you are driving without a valid licence/permit for the vehicle you are in so you shouldn't be on the road. The courts don't care if you can afford to pay a fine or not, there are plenty of people sent to jail for none payment of fines.

Richie15 wrote: »

Not a direct quote because I haven't got the certificate in front of me, but my policy covers something to the effect of "someone who has a licence or, having held one, is not disqualified from holding a licence." To me that would mean someone whose licence has expired and not yet been renewed. This person would technically be driving without a licence, and yet would still be insured. If that's true of someone with an expired full licence, why not an unaccompanied learner?

My policy has the same wording. I've bolded the important bit, that's the reason why they changed the name from provisional licence to learners permit.

When your licence has expired you have still been found competent to drive and all you currently need to do, if it's less then 10 years, is pay some money. Thought there have been a few threads recently that you could still be brought to court for driving with no licence.

A learners permit means you have never been deemed capable of passing the test and it's clearly states you must be accompanied.

It's like comparing chalk and cheese, unless they bring in tests to renew your licence which I hope they do. It might improve our driving standards.

daveharnett

Del2005 wrote: »

The OP asked a question. I've merely pointed out one of the risks of driving unaccompanied on a learners permit. It doesn't bother me in the slightest if all the learners are doing it or not.

The fact is that if you are driving outside the terms of your licence/permit the insurance company will pay any 3rd party claims. They are also perfectly entitled to come back after you to reclaim any money paid out.

It won't be an expensive legal action as it's cut and dry, you are driving without a valid licence/permit for the vehicle you are in so you shouldn't be on the road.

Are you a practicing solicitor, barrister or judge? Can you cite any precedent for this scenario? Have you any evidence beyond your own opinion that this is legally 'cut and dry'?

Del2005 wrote: »

The courts don't care if you can afford to pay a fine or not, there are plenty of people sent to jail for none payment of fines.

The insurers care. As you rightly pointed out, they are in business to make money. Paying a legal team to pursue a claim against somebody with no money doesn't strike me as a winning business strategy. Oh, and we're not talking about a fine, we're talking about a judgement.

Edit: Just want to point out that I have no agenda here - I'm fully licenced, don't work in insurance or law enforcement. I normally wouldn't bother with an argument like this, but I find opinion presented as fact particularly bothersome in this forum.

mark renton

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

:rolleyes:
is it just me that finds it strange that nobody has ever come on here stating that this has been their experience

Del2005

daveharnett wrote: »

Are you a practicing solicitor, barrister or judge? Can you cite any precedent for this scenario? Have you any evidence beyond your own opinion that this is legally 'cut and dry'?


The insurers care. As you rightly pointed out, they are in business to make money. Paying a legal team to pursue a claim against somebody with no money doesn't strike me as a winning business strategy. Oh, and we're not talking about a fine, we're talking about a judgement.

Edit: Just want to point out that I have no agenda here - I'm fully licenced, don't work in insurance or law enforcement. I normally wouldn't bother with an argument like this, but I find opinion presented as fact particularly bothersome in this forum.

How is it opinion? It's very basic.

You have a learners permit which requires you to be accompanied at all times. If you are driving on your own you are driving outside the conditions of your permit, therefore your permit isn't valid. If you don't have a valid licence/permit to drive the vehicle you are in your insurance becomes void.

The fact that they've honoured all claims up to now and haven't taken anyone to court to recoup their costs doesn't mean that they won't or can't.

As I've said before it doesn't bother me if learners are driving unaccompanied or not once they don't hit me. But the OP asked what happens in an accident insurance wise and I was telling them of a potential risk.

mark renton

There should be 2 threads for this - one for the politically correct people and one for people who live in the real world

daveharnett

Del2005 wrote: »

How is it opinion? It's very basic.

You have a learners permit which requires you to be accompanied at all times. If you are driving on your own you are driving outside the conditions of your permit, therefore your permit isn't valid. If you don't have a valid licence/permit to drive the vehicle you are in your insurance becomes void.

Once again, do you have any evidence that the (perfectly reasonable) argument above represents actual Irish insurance law?

Richie15

Del2005 wrote: »

The person on the phone will say this. But what they don't say is that if you are driving outside the terms of you licence/permit they are perfectly entitled to sue you for any money paid out in a claim.

If they tell you something, it forms part of your contract. That's the idea of asking. If you ask the girl on the phone "Does my policy cover me while I'm driving without a qualified driver, even though I understand this is a deliberate breach of the law?" and she says yes, they can't go back on that.

spurious wrote: »

As a learner driver, I hope to start as I mean to go on, doing my utmost to obey the rules and be a safe driver.

I don't care if I would be covered by my insurance or if everyone is doing it, or if all the rest of them are maniacs on the road. The law is there for a reason - it's not for me to pick and choose which bits I'll pay heed to.

That's a sensible attitude, and probably the simplest way around it anyway.

Del2005 wrote: »

Thought there have been a few threads recently that you could still be brought to court for driving with no licence.

True, you could be, and it might also be a factor in determining fault. But that doesn't mean you're not covered. If you're speeding, or illegally parked, or you go through a red light you could still get a fixed penalty, and you might be deemed to have caused the accident, but you're still covered.

Del2005 wrote: »

When your licence has expired you have still been found competent to drive ... unless they bring in tests to renew your licence which I hope they do. It might improve our driving standards.

+1.

[rant]
"But I don't know if I could pass another test at this stage" was one argument I heard against this.
My response was that she shouldn't be driving if she couldn't pass a test.
"But I've 15 years no-claims bonus!"
First of all she hasn't - she's been driving 15 years, including provisionals, and had at least one claim in between, not to mention the minor bumps and scrapes that didn't result in a claim. And don't get me started on respect for fuel economy and vehicle maintenance!
[/rant]

Degag

I was stopped by the guards driving unaccompanied. I didn't even get a telling off. I think it was because i had tax, insurance, nct up to date, had L-Plates up, and my car wan't "souped up"

They basically knew i needed the car for genuine reasons and wasn't taking the mickey or trying to avoid them by not having the l-plates up.

Of course i was still wrong but they will give some leeway in my experiences.

thebiglad

Degag wrote: »

I was stopped by the guards driving unaccompanied. I didn't even get a telling off. I think it was because i had tax, insurance, nct up to date, had L-Plates up, and my car wan't "souped up"

A la carte law...

Paulw

An interesting article and a warning to those who take the risk -

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/warning-as-14000-ldrivers-caught-in-garda-clampdown-2152393.html

It seems that Gardai and the courts are clamping down, more and more.

jack888

Thanks for the responses all.

The reason I posted this was because I wanted to know what the punishment was for driving on my own. Then I could decide if it was worth the risk or not.

I am not really any clearer on what the actual punishment is. If it was standard for the gards to just let you go or if there was only a couple of hundred Euro fine, I would happily take the risk.
If I knew I was insured if I was involved in an accident Id take the risk. I am fully insured on the car but dont know if thats risked driving alone.

Seems people are unsure here. I would drive with L plates up.

J.S. Pill

Waternews wrote: »

Your insurance will be invalidated. You won't have a hope of a cent in case of a claim. And you may be excluded from getting insurance from that company again - which you have to disclose, and pretty much giving you a factor of 10 for any new insurance.

Exact opposite applies

If you get a conviction you are going to find it very difficult to move companies. Other companies will be very reluctant to quote for drivers with convictions. The company you were insured with at the time of conviction is obliged to provide a quote for at least basic RTA cover if 2 other underwriters decline cover, assuming and driving bans imposed have expired of course. The company you're stuck with will apply loadings at their discretion, these loadings can be astronomical but they can get away with this as they know how difficult it would be for you to move and they probably would be happy enough if you were off their books anyway.

J.S. Pill

Michael B wrote:

I was told by my insurance company that I was covered regardless of if I was alone or not if I crashed in to someone while on my learner permit. I've since recently passed my test but I made sure of that while I was driving unaccompanied. Well my insurance company (Allianz) and my girlfriend's (FBD) confirmed this to us anyway.

Richie15 wrote:

Mine did aswell, but the point is you have to confirm.

del2005 wrote:

The person on the phone will say this. But what they don't say is that if you are driving outside the terms of you licence/permit they are perfectly entitled to sue you for any money paid out in a claim.

That's not what you pay €000s for.

You're all right in a way. Allianz and FBD may have just been confirming third party cover if you 'crashed into someone' whilst on a learner permit. Some companies will decline to pay out on any comprehensive dimension to the claim.

Companies technically are entitled to sue for any money paid out in a claim if there is a breach of duty of care (e.g. doing illegal stuff) but I've never come across any case where this was done because the insured was driving unaccompanied on a learner permit.

Paulw

jack888 wrote: »

The reason I posted this was because I wanted to know what the punishment was for driving on my own. Then I could decide if it was worth the risk or not.

From the Independent -

The Irish Independent has learned that many of these drivers have been hit with minimum fines of €1,000 for dangerous driving, driving unaccompanied or having wasted the "second chance" they were given.

So, if stopped, and the Gardai take action (rather than just a warning, which is within their powers) you could face a nice large fine.

DriveSkill

jack888 wrote: »

The reason I posted this was because I wanted to know what the punishment was for driving on my own. Then I could decide if it was worth the risk or not.

I am not really any clearer on what the actual punishment is. If it was standard for the gards to just let you go or if there was only a couple of hundred Euro fine, I would happily take the risk.
If I knew I was insured if I was involved in an accident Id take the risk. I am fully insured on the car but dont know if thats risked driving alone.

Seems people are unsure here. I would drive with L plates up.

Nobody can give you a definite answer to this because it is not a 'fixed penalty notice' offence (unlike speeding for example, which is a fixed penalty notice so generally no court or judge involved). Your question is sort of like asking 'if I rob something from a shop what will the punishment be?' answers is - 'it depends :-) '

The Gardai in Ireland have the power of discretion so therefore on any given day, if stopped, they may or may not decide to charge you - some will let you off with a warning, some will ignore it completely and some will throw the book at you. In most cases it depends on the circumstances in which you are stopped - more likely to be let off with a warning if just stopped at a random checkpoint whereas likely to have the book thrown at you if stopped while doing something else illegal (i.e. dangerous overtaking, speeding etc). If they charge you then it goes to court and its up to the judge to decide on the fine - maximum being €1000 assuming you have the L-Plates up and only offence is driving unaccompanied. So lots of 'ifs' and 'maybes' involved but it doesnt change the fact that you are driving illegally.

As for the insurance you will definitely be covered for Third Party - i.e. if you hit somebody and you are at fault then the third party is covered. Whether or not the insurance company will pay out your own costs under a comprehensive policy is a matter for each insurer to decide so the 'risk' is if you write off your own car then the insurance may not pay out to you. Obviously if you end with an insurance claim issue then it is likely the Gardai may also be involved so you are also risking being charged with the driving unaccompanied offence.

Summary, not advisable - better to apply for your test and get the full licence and you dont have to worry about any of this!

jack888

DriveSkill wrote: »

Nobody can give you a definite answer to this because it is not a 'fixed penalty notice' offence (unlike speeding for example, which is a fixed penalty notice so generally no court or judge involved). Your question is sort of like asking 'if I rob something from a shop what will the punishment be?' answers is - 'it depends :-) '

The Gardai in Ireland have the power of discretion so therefore on any given day, if stopped, they may or may not decide to charge you - some will let you off with a warning, some will ignore it completely and some will throw the book at you. In most cases it depends on the circumstances in which you are stopped - more likely to be let off with a warning if just stopped at a random checkpoint whereas likely to have the book thrown at you if stopped while doing something else illegal (i.e. dangerous overtaking, speeding etc). If they charge you then it goes to court and its up to the judge to decide on the fine - maximum being €1000 assuming you have the L-Plates up and only offence is driving unaccompanied. So lots of 'ifs' and 'maybes' involved but it doesnt change the fact that you are driving illegally.

As for the insurance you will definitely be covered for Third Party - i.e. if you hit somebody and you are at fault then the third party is covered. Whether or not the insurance company will pay out your own costs under a comprehensive policy is a matter for each insurer to decide so the 'risk' is if you write off your own car then the insurance may not pay out to you. Obviously if you end with an insurance claim issue then it is likely the Gardai may also be involved so you are also risking being charged with the driving unaccompanied offence.

Summary, not advisable - better to apply for your test and get the full licence and you dont have to worry about any of this!

Thx,

Yeah, still waiting for them to give me test date

Del2005

DriveSkill wrote: »

As for the insurance you will definitely be covered for Third Party - i.e. if you hit somebody and you are at fault then the third party is covered. Whether or not the insurance company will pay out your own costs under a comprehensive policy is a matter for each insurer to decide so the 'risk' is if you write off your own car then the insurance may not pay out to you. Obviously if you end with an insurance claim issue then it is likely the Gardai may also be involved so you are also risking being charged with the driving unaccompanied offence.

You're definitely covered 3rd party, but the insurnace company have the right to claim any money paid out back from you. They haven't done it yet as far as anyone knows.

If you want to know if it's true you need to call your insurance company directly and ask them.