Break Fall or Riding the Throw?

Niall Keane

I see allot of Judoka here, and I genuinely respect this art. you guys compete an test yourselves, and therefore "know" and most people here know that I do likewise. i.e. this is not an inane question I'm going to post, or a dick length contest, and I'd appreciate answers in a like vein. Anyway, I know this is a thorny issue re. difference of opinion, but hey, I think it's worth a mention. I've only practiced one art, so perhaps you can broaden my knowledge. Many Thanks!

Japanese arts will normally train and use the break-fall, to me this seems to be, and please correct me if I'm wrong, hitting the ground with the arms, legs etc. to relieve force on the trunk / head. more or less. In Chinese arts we tend to follow the throw, hold on to the opponent "let ourselves down", i.e. hold on and let go without enticing him to slam onto us with elbows or knees, but riding and so cancelling most of the force.

As a Kung Fu teacher I tend to teach the later, we have allot of twisting throws designed to dislocate and break limbs if they are used to break a throw. We modify suchfor competition in compliance with rules. For example we have "white crane spreads its wings" its basically similar to a hip throw, but we extend the hips further to trap the outer leg / hip of the opponent (I base this assessment on Judo guys who've trained with me), butt him with our ass to lift him, and spin / twist and accelerate downward, (in comps not so much to throw him ont his back, in defence we sink and spike a twisting head/ neck) so if a hand is extended it will be twisted and broken (another thread reminded me of this subject) as the most common injury for beginners in my class, although it is rear (its the guys who don’t listen) is broken arms due to trying to save themselves of trying to break fall rather than holding on to "ride the throw".
There is a "nei jia" classic that tells us "if we raise something up we smash it down with increased force", this is trained through repetitive drills and all persons I know who actually practice such drills can now do this naturally under pressure of sanshou (kickboxing with throws) or shuai jaoi (wrestling).
I see the obvious benefit and science behind break-falls if the throw is directed in a straight line without a twist. My question comes from my past experience. When I learned, we trained on the concrete concourse surrounding UCD, we move to ranelagh multi and broadcast a training session on You tube, only to be berated by many for training without mats, "you guys are insane", our coach at the time ended up a world Shuai Jaoi champion in 2005 (87 countries competing over 3 days), all those who trained with him have European titles.) We didn't have the money for mats, it was not some ridicules risk, we loved what we did, and made do, it was pre-Celtic tiger (not 2005, but some of the 10 years prior). I’m not waving my achievements here, I’m simply establishing that we have extensive experience, and when I started, I like many beginners, justifiably, if you want to achieve, believed whole heartily in the ethos of what I learned, and I still sincerely believe that doubt leads to defeat. However after competing with many different styles / ways I like Lao Tzu have also learned that there are many ways. Anyway from such training I can't imagine hitting concrete with driven force, with arms or elbows / joints necessary to break fall? Especially if the throw is designed to twist / slam the opponent into the ground. Also our throws are designed so as to remain standing (part of weapon (sword, saber, spear trainig), so there's a lift and a burry, not a sacrifice, or trip. I would really appreciate the explanation for the break-fall tactic bearing the above in mind.

It obviously does work as it is pressure tested in competition, and a trained athlete sending someone through the mats, just in my experience, prevents fatalities not injury. So I know it works! So please can someone explain the aim, reasons, and technicalities, as I have done above with "riding the throw"? I suspect that break fall success relies on a sacrifice type manoeuvre, a willingness to fall before a twist is applied, to pre-empt disaster, seeking to gain with a counter during the fall, whereas kung fu seeks to minimise the damage once a throw is inevitable, and roll away and bounce back into action? I base this on experience with Judoka who have sought to throw by falling themselves, kneel falling to add their weight to a double leg takedown, where a kung fu / sanshou guy would try to step into the centre of gravity and throw but remain standing. The skill of falling to “pull” down an opponent seems entwined into the willingness to “break” a fall or pre-empt the opponents force? All legitimate, but different, as I said before, both work, and I don’t think anyone here is going to change their game, but I’m purely interested out of curiosity. BTW apologies, I know I’m trying to describe a colour here with letters!!!

Anyway many thanks, I hope I have brought up
an interesting question of differences in tactics that we can all explore?

cowzerp

In Judo you would also ride the throw but then break fall at the landing point to spread the weight and minimize injury, my Judo training is limited so maybe the more experienced Judoka's on here will say different..

Like anything, when it comes to specialists in sports if you want to know what works best ask them, for example for throws and landing ask judoka, for punching ask Boxers, for submissions talk to BJJ or similar practitioners then you'll get the best answers possible.

beGood

Judo breakfalls, ukemi, are primarily for the safety of the person landing, uke, on the ground. The success of an ukemi is that, when correctly executed, the uke can get up and continue to train. Once a judoka has confidence in falling it is then much easier for them to progress in learning to throw, so the ukemi are a very important step in learning judo.

In terms of competition success an ukemi will usually mean the uke loses a point and possibly the competition so ukemi don't play any part in a match winning strategy (although one can count living to fight another day a good strategy too!). This is why many judoka don't perform ukemi but instead spin out of throws to avoid landing on their back. This type of escape isn't healthy in the long run and I've learnt the hard way (more specifically my shoulder has) that I don't have to avoid every throw in randori.

Counter techniques are a different area of judo and don't involve ukemi.

This article might be of some help: Understanding ukemi.

Regarding the issue of throwing by falling oneself, there are a few different situations. There is a group of sacrifice throws, sutemi-waza, that require the thrower, tori, to fall by definition in order to throw uke. Then there are other throws (in the te-, koshi-, ashi-waza categories) that don't require tori to fall by definition (i.e. if done well), but some judoka have developed their own variation of a technique that works by falling or more commonly to salvage an imperfect throw tori needs to follow through. In all of these situations ukemi don't play a part in the execution of the technique by tori as more often than not he uses uke to break his fall

Doug Cartel

The slapping the mat thing is kind of interesting. I think it serves several purposes and they don't exactly fit with the the party line of "it absorbs energy"

The primary reason for slapping the ground is that it stops you from posting with your arms, something that will get you injured really quick. If you simply tell beginners not to post with their arms, it's no good - they still do it every time. You have to tell them to do something else with their arms which won't hurt them, and slapping the ground is a good option.

The second thing is that slapping makes a big noise. It quickly shows if the beginner is actually doing the break fall or not. It also works as a good indication that the throw was a scoring one. In practice at least, it helps to do a big break-fall if you feel you've been thrown cleanly. (Competition is a different story.)

Once you get used to falling properly you can start doing what you've described. In practice when you're repeatedly throwing each other back and forth, it's fairly common to hold on to the guy throwing you and lower yourself down so you don't end up bashed to pieces after ten minutes. you can also start doing things like trying to re-roll your opponent so you get a pin, or just pulling guard.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sorry OP I'm almost completely baffled by what exactly you want to discuss, is it solely the reason we perform a breakfall when thrown in Judo as opposed to just holding onto your partner in the hope of not being thrown?.

I'm not being a smart ass, I suspect there's more questions to your post that just clearing up breakfalls. If so I'd like to be as accurate with my answer's as possible.

(If its just breakfalls the other lads have answered the Q).

Niall Keane

Thanks for all your answers, Makikomi it's the slapping thing which requires extending the arms which in my own style would be a no no as the theory is that it could lead to the twisting and snapping of limbs. We'd normally ride the throw adhere to the opponents trunk preferably or his limbs and let our selves down without pulling him on to us to slam us. So in effect we adhere and follow his entire throw I wondered if judo practiced releasing half way through to gain time and space to achieve the break throw slap.
Very difficult to describe this I know, given there's three languages involved and different terms I could easily describe what I'm saying refering to say the throw "step back and repulse the monkey" but what the hell would that mean to many?
It's a throw where the chin I lifted by say ye right hand, the waist pulled by te left hand or trapped and the right foot stepping back through the opponent legs to throw him back.
To "save ourselves" we would entwine the right arm normally slipping to the floor rather than taking the full force of the throw by this counter. We would twist our body slightly to roll to a convienient side to absorb force but woulnnever cast our arms back to slap the ground. Is this description any use?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Niall Keane wrote: »

Thanks for all your answers, Makikomi it's the slapping thing which requires extending the arms which in my own style would be a no no as the theory is that it could lead to the twisting and snapping of limbs. We'd normally ride the throw adhere to the opponents trunk preferably or his limbs and let our selves down without pulling him on to us to slam us. So in effect we adhere and follow his entire throw I wondered if judo practiced releasing half way through to gain time and space to achieve the break throw slap.
Very difficult to describe this I know, given there's three languages involved and different terms I could easily describe what I'm saying refering to say the throw "step back and repulse the monkey" but what the hell would that mean to many?
It's a throw where the chin I lifted by say ye right hand, the waist pulled by te left hand or trapped and the right foot stepping back through the opponent legs to throw him back.
To "save ourselves" we would entwine the right arm normally slipping to the floor rather than taking the full force of the throw by this counter. We would twist our body slightly to roll to a convienient side to absorb force but woulnnever cast our arms back to slap the ground. Is this description any use?

Grand.

I get the impression breaking balance is not taught to the student as a requirement for getting a successful throw?.

That being the case, and I've went and had a youtube look at your styles throws, your throws are pretty basic and more or less like those a lower grade judoka would attempt - in which case a practiced Judoka would easily counter the throw and not have too much to worry about.

As for holding onto your opponent, or 'riding the throw' as you put it. In practice a thats never taught to the student, in fact its considered very bad practice which could result in injury to you or your training partner.

When things go live, ie Randori (free practice/sparring) or competition then both fighters will fight for every inch of the mat and the person being thrown (uki) will usually try their damnest to pull a counter from anywhere and you won't see too many clean breakfalls.

You mentioned that your taught to remain standing after a try, well in a sport like Judo were submissions are part of the game Tori (the attacker) will usually follow his opponent to the ground incase an Ippon (one full point/victory) is not awarded, then you fight for a submission by either choke/strangle, armbar or hold down (for 25 seconds).

Hope thats a bit better than my last attempt :P

Burnt

Just to add my two cents...

I would back up what makikomi and BeGood are saying.

In addition to being a direct safety feature, Ukemi instills confidence in a
Judoka that they can take a fall; if necessary. This allows them to remain
relaxed and supple and concentrate on the task at hand, throwing the
other guy! If your tense the throws will come slow and telegraphed and
when thrown you will be more likely to get injured.

The slapping break falls most non judoka see are the most basic forms of
ukemi; and the most risk free, there are also more advance and athletic
options for those who require it. Alot of which is just done on an ad hoc
or reflex basis

Please see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu_oLMJarWY

Also Makikomi pointed out there is very little gotten for free in judo comps
and uke will agressively persue any hope of a counter while he can.

Check out any of the Mifune videos on youtube.

The is also a video of a guy in the 70's in france i think hopping over a
throw and immediately following up with a lovely uchimata i can't find it
but maybe some of the other guys where knows where it's at.


As for clinging on to people, in judo it would be a recipie for disaster tori
(attacker) will in all likelyhood jump to the ground using you as a cushion.

Niall Keane

In reply to Makiomi...

I get the impression breaking balance is not taught to the student as a requirement for getting a successful throw?.

Ah come on, be real here I'm actually interested in the reason, be serious every throw from every dicipline requires understanding of balance etc. and as you've seen we've broken balance in competition when the other guy would prefer that we didn't?

That being the case, and I've went and had a youtube look at your styles throws, your throws are pretty basic and more or less like those a lower grade judoka would attempt - in which case a practiced Judoka would easily counter the throw and not have too much to worry about.

I did say that I was interested in a reasoning and not a dick comparason? Basic /Advanced is meaningless until you have competed in the descipline. I could counter with well we also face knockout kicks and punches that judoka never experience and that this changes form entirely, but I'm interested in learning your perspective, why the slap, I don't buy the beginner thing, and I don't accept that Judo is simply a sport, is there a reason to risk exposure to follow up strikes, twists and breaks, you must have considered ways of countering the obvious? What's the deal?

As for holding onto your opponent, or 'riding the throw' as you put it. In practice a thats never taught to the student, in fact its considered very bad practice which could result in injury to you or your training partner.

So do you guys let go entirely? and at what point, is this a judo training thing? it obviously has been tested in comps!

When things go live, ie Randori (free practice/sparring) or competition then both fighters will fight for every inch of the mat and the person being thrown (uki) will usually try their damnest to pull a counter from anywhere and you won't see too many clean breakfalls.

yea, this happens with all styles, but what I'm asking about is the break fall slap which seems particular to judo / japanese arts?

You mentioned that your taught to remain standing after a try, well in a sport like Judo were submissions are part of the game Tori (the attacker) will usually follow his opponent to the ground incase an Ippon (one full point/victory) is not awarded, then you fight for a submission by either choke/strangle, armbar or hold down (for 25 seconds).

So is this accepted, encouraged, hence my earlier post re. sacrafice, and the willingness to follow to the ground?

BTW thanks for your answers, and I realise that we are describing colours with black ink, but hey, this is something that always intregued me,and I figure boards is as good asanywhere to discuss such with words?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Niall Keane wrote: »

In reply to Makiomi...





I did say that I was interested in a reasoning and not a dick comparason? Basic /Advanced is meaningless until you have competed in the descipline. I could counter with well we also face knockout kicks and punches that judoka never experience and that this changes form entirely, but I'm interested in learning your perspective, why the slap, I don't buy the beginner thing, and I don't accept that Judo is simply a sport, is there a reason to risk exposure to follow up strikes, twists and breaks, you must have considered ways of countering the obvious? What's the deal?

Niall I'm sorry you've chosen to take this attitude with me, I was just calling things as I seen them and honestly wasn't trying to belittle you or your style.

The other lads here are more than qualified to answer your questions. I'm choosing to bow out of this one, sorry.

cowzerp

Niall Keane wrote: »

why the slap

Thats simple, instead of the weight going straight through the trunk or torso you disperse it throughout the body by breakfalling, avoiding injury and been winded which in any sport is bad, Breakfalling does this and i can say that by experience of landing hard with it and without it.

Niall Keane

Thanks for the explanations guys, sorry Makikomi about the attitude I guess I can be a bit terse at times. No offence intended. I'm gathering there must be a good deal of practiced timing involved, ie in order to let go and slap the ground, a similar demand I guess to us not pulling someone down onto us. Different approaches obviously. Is this also done in jujitsu? Is it a judo or Japanese thing, have you ever seen it in other arts? Or where did it come from, as it is to me anyway one of your signature techniques. From the injuries thread I see breakfall is a formal part of your training, we have an excercise of performing 3 sets of 80 rolls back and forth accross matts which trains us to roll to the side protecting the spine, it's preformed as a warm up before every class to ingrain the method. Btw I notice on boards in many judo and jujitsu threads Japanese terms for different throws is there a list translation explanation on the net somewhere I could be directed to?
Many thanks.

Niall Keane

Re. My last point about terms etc. I see MaeveD has posted a thread 'free judo books" great resourses for those of us not familiar with the Masonic terms you have for throws, now wouldn't it be nice if us Kung Fu lads were equally as obliging, trouble is I don't think there's agreement in any one style.

smacl

Interesting shuai jiao clip of basic throws here, which seems to show something very similar to judo breakfalls on a number of occasions. I think jacket wrestling, e.g. judo & shuai jiao, can have very different dynamics to wrestling without a jacket. Personally, I found adapting from tui shou (no jackets) to shuai jiao very difficult, particularly in terms of blocking and escaping from grips. Without the jacket, there seemed to be far greater opportunity to change position at low risk, which in turn seemed to lend itself more to trips and sweeps than full body throws. Not so much need for break falls here, as protecting the head and rolling out was typically the fastest way of getting back to your feet. With the jacket, once the other guy had a good grip and was stronger, I always found it way more difficult to escape. This would provide more oppotunity to set-up bigger techniques with harder falls.

The other thing worth considering is that in the Chinese styles, the main objective after being thrown is to get back to your feet, whereas in Judo you have a ground game. Breakfalls will slow down getting back to your feet, and hence are probably avoided in Chinese styles. Looking at Aikido breakfalls, they tend to try to use any forward momentum to roll out where possible as well, again probably because they don't fight on the ground.

The primary reason for slapping the ground is that it stops you from posting with your arms, something that will get you injured really quick.

Makes sense, it's a mistake I've certainly made in the past. As Niall suggests, this is probably why we do so many rolls in tai chi, to ingrain a reflex that keeps the arms from sticking out when thrown.

Burnt

In any judo lesson I have attended we have spend a considerable
amount of the time devoted to both the static/slapping ukemi and
rolling ukemi.

It is worth considering several reasons for the existance and origins
of the slapping breakfalls in Judo

Judo's origins are predominately in Kito-Ryu and Tenjin Shin'yo-Ryu;
there are others, but this is the strict holy Kodokan Dojo line. These
exist only as Kata now in Judo now.

Kito-Ryu was the primary source of the major throwing techniques
featured in judo today. Koshiki-no-Kata is the classic demonstration
of this style. It was to replicated grappling in armour, though this
rarely happens in judo these days.

Kano and the first Yamas*h*i*t*a.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot5z7viZhqc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrjd_BjAtaA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1yDEzWICR4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mJ_Hnns2Qw


Given the nature of Japanese armour Yoroi, in particular o-yoroi it would
be almost impossibe to roll out of of some of techniques applied without
risk of further injury. In particular rearward throws. The jerky movement
are an attempt to illustrate/replicate the weight of reall yoroi



We also have TSYR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhTpeCdANzA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOrQ9HafegE

For Now for a bit of heresy:

Yagyū Shingan-ryū; following on from Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū, is an earlier
school teaching an almost complete bugei; as apposed to a budo e.g.
judo, system, the jujustu aspect was know as Taijutsu (body art) or
yawara (softness/supple). YSR is more muscular than many of the other
ryus around. Kano did practice this art but ...not to the same level as TSR
or Kito Ryu. While most judoka should recognise what's going on; it's
influence on the deveploment of Judo is unclear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzTCQk2KHyQ

From observing these video it shows that Tori (attacker) ;just as today,
often retains a grip on Uke (defender/victim) and follows them to the
ground in this situation it would not be possible to preform a rolling breakfall



It is interesting to note that most of the wrestlers I have trained with most
american folk style/collegiate had no formal training in breakfalls as I know them

Wild Geese Judo

There is an incredible amount of comments on this topic so here's my tuppence worth:
When I'm explaining ukemi (breakfalls) to beginners esp. juniors I compare the breakfall to a slap with the hand. If you strike someone with your full open hand and then a single finger, obviously you will hurt your finger more. The breakfall spreads the impact across as large an area as possible to protect the ribs, organs etc. The 45 degree angle of the breakfalling arm prevents the shoulder blade from protruding and getting hurt.
Judo as a sport is derived from a Martial Art and has its roots in practical combat; if you are hurled to the concrete forcibly it is better to have bruised or even broken limbs (remember the bent leg is also part of a judo breakfall) than a damaged spine or cracked ribs and internal bleeding.
As judo is practised as a sport and the judoka is thrown to the mat possibly more frequently in an average session than in any other activity it is essential that damage and pain is kept to a minimum. For purely safety reasons standing judo practice is usually separate from ground work. This is in case someone else steps or falls on the judoka already on the ground. For this reason it is considered bad form in judo practice to cling to someone after he/she has thrown you. It is also bad for the clinger; the impact they suffer is now doubled or more by the weight of the thrower.
Competition judo plays a relatively small part time-wise in the life of a good judoka so it is far more important to train safely every week than to drag competition mentality into the dojo where many are just training socially.
Remember if you train well enough you may never be thrown in a competition! But it is very hard if not impossible to learn judo without falling frequently.

pearsquasher

In the Bujinkan, which is derived after all from classical jujutsu/taijutsu schools, our breakfalls are
1) to prevent injury to the thrown partner
2) to facilitate the thrower throwing correctly.

However... throwing correctly is about NOT letting the throwee breakfall at all. You can do this by .. throwing them at the point where they cannot breakfall or by interupting their breakfall with strikes/weapon use..This skill of course is built up over time.

As for riding the throw.. yep we practice that too and have a host of "sutemi waza" or sacrifice throws.

But mainly ... no slapping of the mats!!!!! Thats a big no no in my dojo as we're gearing to breakfall in non-matted environments.. ie concrete, outdoors etc.

cletus

pearsquasher wrote: »

But mainly ... no slapping of the mats!!!!! Thats a big no no in my dojo as we're gearing to breakfall in non-matted environments.. ie concrete, outdoors etc.

What do your breakfalls look like?

Sid_Justice

a bit like a breakfall and a roll so something like this

flynny51

pearsquasher wrote: »

In the Bujinkan, which is derived after all from classical jujutsu/taijutsu schools, our breakfalls are
1) to prevent injury to the thrown partner
2) to facilitate the thrower throwing correctly.

Would you also say:
3) To recover to a fighting stance quickly from lets say a push (into a forward roll etc)?

pearsquasher wrote: »

But mainly ... no slapping of the mats!!!!! Thats a big no no in my dojo as we're gearing to breakfall in non-matted environments.. ie concrete, outdoors etc.

We had to train without mats for a while. You'll quickly correct your technique when rolling on wooden floors, I had some serious bruises when we first moved dojo.

Killme00

flynny51 wrote: »

We had to train without mats for a while. You'll quickly correct your technique when rolling on wooden floors, I had some serious bruises when we first moved dojo.

I'm sorry but thats retarded. I'm surprised your insurance covered you :rolleyes:


Pearqusher, how often would you expect to breakfall/roll in the street to make this practice worthwhile?

Doug Cartel

Killme00 wrote: »

Pearqusher, how often would you expect to breakfall/roll in the street to make this practice worthwhile?

I guess he could argue that it only has to work once for it to be worthwhile.

Thing is though, I've been told a story about a judo guy who fell off his mountain bike on fairly rough terrain. He credits his break fall skills with preventing any serious injury. I don't know if he slapped the ground though.

flynny51

Killme00 wrote: »

I'm sorry but thats retarded. I'm surprised your insurance covered you :rolleyes:


Pearqusher, how often would you expect to breakfall/roll in the street to make this practice worthwhile?

When I say rolling I mean breakfalls (forward and backward roll) and not the BJJ meaning for randori if that's what you're thinking?

As for forward / backward rolls on wooden floors, same as on mats except if you don't have your technique perfect you'll get a few bruises. No danger really unless you're a complete beginner (there weren't any).

Daniel2oo9

My coach is a BlackBelt in Judo and emphasises standing and Ground work alot.

I Really do not like being thrown by way bigger guys than me as i even breakfall and still feel dizzy evertime ive been thrown!

Id say defo breakfall as it prevents injury and is only training!

Niall Keane

The reason for slapping seem to be explained as a way of training but not how you'd compete? Or am I getting this wrong. Btw killme, it's not "retarded" to train without mats, when I started you needed to put a deposit of a house amount of money down to buy them and understand import and export methods being before wide spread Internet use. I learned and trained a great deal on the concrete plinth surrounding ucd sports centre, we were only afforded 5 days a week training of 2 hours and to train additionally we uses the "free" area. Which reconciles with oldschool training my teachers teacher learnt around the outskirts of hong kong his teacher was given food and board and payment to teach the sons and nephews of the houses owner.
Different days, but no style school starts off with money for luxuries such as mats, so go easy, maybe if you check it out you'll find your teachers hadn't any either?

SBG Ireland

ah the wooden floor days....then finding carpet a luxury

Niall Keane

Yea carpet that was great, thanks that brings back memories, I'll always remember training in a prefab in Newtown Park Avenue a tiny room enough for a pair to spar in. One of the lads was generously proportioned. When he sparred and especially if he was Thrown the building litterally trembled. Normally it was scouts that used the room and the local church council (it was a parish centre) used the adjacent room. One day our door burst open with an irrate (pillar of the community) angling to chastise us. It was classic like something out of fight club instead of 12 year old scouts he discovered a heavy sparring session only to be told in a French accent and in broken English by a true legend Nick Le "duck": you are too late, class is nearly over, come back on Thursday." I have never seen such a hasty retreat.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Niall Keane wrote: »

The reason for slapping seem to be explained as a way of training but not how you'd compete? Or am I getting this wrong.

I wouldn't do a breakfall 'slap' in competition - no way, no how!.

Niall Keane

SBG, Makikomi, lads look at the three of us, late Friday night, early Saturday morning, and we're discussing martial arts. No such thing as a weekend for obsessed martial artists? Makes us good / tragic?:)

pearsquasher

What do your breakfalls look like?

Like judo/aikido breakfalls but with no slapping and more use of the feet.

Pearquasher, how often would you expect to breakfall/roll in the street to make this practice worthwhile?

I would never expect to breakfall in the street. Same way I don't expect to be punched there either. I don't work in security so my expectation of actual usage of martial arts training is zero. Having said that, I have had occasion to deal with both, unexpectedly, and my training certainly saved my ass 100%. In particular, a couple of major bike crashes threw me full force into the ground with no chance to roll... and one of the Bujinkan forward breakfall techniques is exactly what my body did, while by brain was momentarily awol... and these did and saved my teeth/face ... twice!


Worthwhile training? Check! But the enjoyment of the training is worthwhile too.