Accents

Zascar

I was chatting to a few Eastern European friends of mine the other day and they were asking me about accents. They said they find it interesting all the different variants of accents in Ireland (Dublin) and how it often relates to class – but in their country it’s not quite like that. You can tell where someone is from but not much more than that. It made me think how when I lived in Australia, I noticed that accents did differ but it did not really relate to social class that much – there just did not seem to be much attention paid to it.

In Ireland, Dublin especially, it’s very obvious I think. The differences in accents around the different areas of the county relate very closely to the wealth/class divides. People will be judged on their accent considerably. Why is it that this is so prevalent here? In most cases, depending on where you grew up, where you went to school and your general social/wealth class, it’s tied pretty close to how well you speak. I say this because let face it in poorer areas, people who have very strong Dublin accents, generally just do not speak properly. It’s not just a use of slang, we all use this, it’s more of a disregard for the use of any amount of proper pronunciation or grammar. Why is it that so much of the population don’t feel the need to speak properly or actually make fun of the people who do?

The Corinthian

Zascar wrote: »

I was chatting to a few Eastern European friends of mine the other day and they were asking me about accents. They said they find it interesting all the different variants of accents in Ireland (Dublin) and how it often relates to class – but in their country it’s not quite like that. You can tell where someone is from but not much more than that.

Many European countries are the products of various unification of various regions under one national banner. As such, each region would tend to have it's own accent or even dialect (something which is difficult to understand if you are an Anglophone), including the aristocracy of the region.

In most countries, class is identified in speech, not so much by accent, but by correct grammar and pronunciation (according to the regional accent).

In Ireland, Dublin especially, it’s very obvious I think. The differences in accents around the different areas of the county relate very closely to the wealth/class divides. People will be judged on their accent considerably. Why is it that this is so prevalent here?

Correct pronunciation and a certain type of accent (West-Brit, D4 or many of the 'soft' country variations) requires education. A person with a certain accent will more likely have gone through a certain educational system and thus adopted certain morals and outlooks - which are the basis of the class to which they belong.

Why is it that so much of the population don’t feel the need to speak properly or actually make fun of the people who do?

Insecurity and good, old-fashioned, Irish begrudgery.

There was a study done some time ago, following the abolition of university fees in the nineties, that looked at the factors affecting low levels of third level enrollment from underprivileged areas. One of the things found was that there was a sense of betrayal, even hostility, towards those who went onto university, from their peers.

Irish society has a pretty bizarre relationship with class structure. On one side we reject it (to the point that we are the only European country without an honours system) and on the other hand we are drenched in it.

miec

Some excellent points there Corinthian, especially

Irish society has a pretty bizarre relationship with class structure. On one side we reject it (to the point that we are the only European country without an honours system) and on the other hand we are drenched in it.

I am well spoken and I have often had a lot of people have a go at me about my accent, that I am trying to be pretentious or something but it is just how I speak.

However, Op your question got me thinking, how is class determined in other countries or does it exist at all. I think in general society has an obsession with categorising and classifying people so we can slap on stereotypes and box them into a 'type'. Also class has an element of exclusivity but that extends to every area of social life eg: tech speak tends to exclude those of a non technical background, same with academia or other types of professions, so unless you speak the coded lingo of that group, you are considered an outsider.

AARRRGH

miec wrote: »

I am well spoken and I have often had a lot of people have a go at me about my accent, that I am trying to be pretentious or something but it is just how I speak.

Me too, when I was a teenager/in my early 20s my accent seemed to irritate "genuine dubs" sort of people, cause you know, it's terrible that I speak clearly and correctly.

But it's amazing what an accent can do. For example, I normally have a shaved head (skinhead shaved) and can dress quite casual, so I'll usually see security guards eyeing me up. As soon as they hear me talk you can see the complete change in their face as they relax and assume I'm some rich guy. It's funny.

Zascar

Zascar wrote: »

I was chatting to a few Eastern European friends of mine the other day and they were asking me about accents. They said they find it interesting all the different variants of accents in Ireland (Dublin) and how it often relates to class – but in their country it’s not quite like that. You can tell where someone is from but not much more than that. It made me think how when I lived in Australia, I noticed that accents did differ but it did not really relate to social class that much – there just did not seem to be much attention paid to it.

In Ireland, Dublin especially, it’s very obvious I think. The differences in accents around the different areas of the county relate very closely to the wealth/class divides. People will be judged on their accent considerably. Why is it that this is so prevalent here? In most cases, depending on where you grew up, where you went to school and your general social/wealth class, it’s tied pretty close to how well you speak. I say this because let face it in poorer areas, people who have very strong Dublin accents, generally just do not speak properly. It’s not just a use of slang, we all use this, it’s more of a disregard for the use of any amount of proper pronunciation or grammar. Why is it that so much of the population don’t feel the need to speak properly or actually make fun of the people who do?

Class? I don't think so. In Dublin, sure the accents have connections with the class/wealth of an area, but outside of the capital accents are just a connection with the locale.

miec

But it's amazing what an accent can do. For example, I normally have a shaved head (skinhead shaved) and can dress quite casual, so I'll usually see security guards eyeing me up. As soon as they hear me talk you can see the complete change in their face as they relax and assume I'm some rich guy. It's funny.

I know, I have experienced the positive side of it as well. I find it weird that people will judge others just on an accent, people automatically trust a well spoken voice, I could be as corrupt as hell but that doesn't seem to matter.

r3nu4l

This is not unique to Ireland. There are plenty of regional accents in the UK but upper middle class and the upper class tend to use received pronunciation, regardless of whether they are from Essex or Glasgow. That sets them apart from 'others' and immediately categorises you as being 'wealthy and of good breeding...'.

Similarly, a Liverpuddlian or broader Scouse accent immediately defines you as being 'poor, uneducated and probably very rough'.

Likewise, there is an accent that is now quite RP but sets you apart from others. The UK have a long history of class distinction and as such accents are a primary indicator of class.

The Irish version of 'class' is pretty much based on wealth (or purported wealth) but some people desperately want to be perceived as belonging to that category of people and so affect an accent. The so-called D4 or DORT accent signifies that you acn be categorised as being 'wealthy'. The accent is just another tool used to project this status, in the same way as attending the 'right' school, preferring rugby to other ball sports and driving a certain type of car. Accent is just a tool for signifying what you want people to think you are.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Deleted User wrote: »

Class? I don't think so. In Dublin, sure the accents have connections with the class/wealth of an area, but outside of the capital accents are just a connection with the locale.

Even in cities outsie the capital? Would have expected in Cork/Galway/Limerick it would be the same. It certainly is in Belfast.

deadhead13

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Even in cities outsie the capital? Would have expected in Cork/Galway/Limerick it would be the same. It certainly is in Belfast.

How strong your Cork accent is depends on what part of he city you're form. How class based this is, I don't know really. I've lived in Galway and found the accent to be fairly neutral.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Even in cities outsie the capital? Would have expected in Cork/Galway/Limerick it would be the same. It certainly is in Belfast.

Why is this about the cities? Lets face it a rather large population of any Irish city comes from the countryside. When I worked in Dublin for Esat years ago, there were very few actual people from Dublin, but rather people from all over the country. Same with when i worked in Cork. Was just as likely to meet people from Kerry, Clare, etc as I would Cork locals.

Sure, some accents do relate to wealth/poverty area's, but lets face it... While districts within a city do have their own distinctive "flair" its the county accent which distinguishes people, with the exception of Dublin.

With regards to the different areas of Cork city or Galway, its not the accent that clues me in, but rather the fashion sense and attitude. Dublin tends to be more obvious with the accent.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Deleted User wrote: »

Why is this about the cities? Lets face it a rather large population of any Irish city comes from the countryside. When I worked in Dublin for Esat years ago, there were very few actual people from Dublin, but rather people from all over the country. Same with when i worked in Cork. Was just as likely to meet people from Kerry, Clare, etc as I would Cork locals.

Probably down to the circles you're in. Pretty much everyone I know in Dublin is from Dublin. True enough when I used to work there the office I was in was very mixed.

Why is this about the cities? I was responding to your post - "Class? I don't think so. In Dublin, sure the accents have connections with the class/wealth of an area, but outside of the capital accents are just a connection with the locale." - I was wondering if it was a city thing rather than a Dublin thing because I've noticed the same trend in Belfast. Haven't been to the other cities.

Riddickcule

I disagree, i know a lot of people who have thick enough Dub accents but they are not actually poor.
And vice versa, i know people who don't have a thick accent but they are of "working class"

Then theres the folks who put it on in presence of Dubs so they won't get a bating.

Denerick

In Trinity College there is this weird 'accentnonaccent' that people from the general midlands area develop. Its like all the accents morph into some kind of Kildare/south Dublin hybrid. Its rather alarming really :eek: I do hope I can 'hang on' to my accent, it tends to scare 'those southern pansies' when I'm angry

As for people around the country, I honestly think its very strange when you hear a Kerryman talk like he's from Donnybrook. Its just not right.

simu

deadhead13 wrote: »

How strong your Cork accent is depends on what part of he city you're form. How class based this is, I don't know really. I've lived in Galway and found the accent to be fairly neutral.

You'd have a fairly good idea of a person's socio-economic background from their accent in Cork City too tbh. There are exceptions of course.

The Corinthian

Riddickcule wrote: »

I disagree, i know a lot of people who have thick enough Dub accents but they are not actually poor.
And vice versa, i know people who don't have a thick accent but they are of "working class"

You are confusing wealth with class - for example, the concept of nouveau riche is an old one and denotes those with wealth, who are nonetheless of a lower class due to their behavior and language.

If you look at class structure historically, the nouveau riche could be considered the first step in upward social mobility. While lower class themselves, their wealth could buy better education, connections and position for their offspring. Often, the nouveau riche would also marry (themselves or their offspring) to upper class (impoverished) families, so as to improve the 'lineage' of their descendants and within a few generations, the humble beginnings of an upper class family would be all but forgotten - and the same can happen in downward class mobility over the course of a few, short, generations.

Barna77

Denerick wrote: »

As for people around the country, I honestly think its very strange when you hear a Kerryman talk like he's from Donnybrook. Its just not right.

This girl I know, with her accent you'd never guess she's from Clare, but from, loike, Blackrock? roysh.

Hill Bicks

Why o why do people form Malahide sound like they come form LA?? its 3 miles from Swords and 5 from Coolock and what 5000 odd miles from California, strange very strange surly this is dorsh/ross o corroll/dont spill the hino on the dubes speak on a whole new level.
Didn't Jedward get pulled up for sounding american on that talent show in the uk. well i hate to rain on the class parade folks but anyone who thinks trying to sound american is a sign of better breeding or higher morals needs to take their enormous head out of you know what.

bob50

Hill Bicks wrote: »

Why o why do people form Malahide sound like they come form LA?? its 3 miles from Swords and 5 from Coolock and what 5000 odd miles from California, strange very strange surly this is dorsh/ross o corroll/dont spill the hino on the dubes speak on a whole new level.
Didn't Jedward get pulled up for sounding american on that talent show in the uk. well i hate to rain on the class parade folks but anyone who thinks trying to sound american is a sign of better breeding or higher morals needs to take their enormous head out of you know what.

Yeah great post Simon cowell indeed pulled up jedward with their yankee accents. Asking them "are you from Dublin or america" ?? the boys looked shocked.
What is this thing with trying to have american accents,?? California espically certainley not New York or the deep south mind you that would be too rough

And on the radio ads you never hear people with thick dublin accents doing voice overs obivously too common

Hill Bicks

yea i find it patronizing to say the least, you'll only hear real Dublin accents on radio ads when they need a thick or a scally about to rob a house for eircom! i know there's slight local differences in accents but some of the stuff that people come out with now is comical.

censuspro

The American accent and terminology has really gotten out of hand. Stephen Fry talked about this ion Room 101 a few years ago and it´s even more relevant today. We don´t say "lads" anymore it´s now "guys" even on boards you´ll see a post more often than not begins with "hey guy". Or, we "hang out" in places now and we got to the "movies" as opposed to the cinema. Or did you see that "movie" or that "TV show" on TV last night. We´ll also hear the more rock types use the word "dude", since when did Irish men use the word dude to refer to each other.

There´s also that very irritating habit that people have of ending every sentence in a high note as if they´re constantly asking a question. Really grates on the ears and just highlights how pretentious Irish people have become over the past few years. TV and radio is also flooded with these phony accents.

Denerick

censuspro wrote: »

The American accent and terminology has really gotten out of hand. Stephen Fry talked about this ion Room 101 a few years ago and it´s even more relevant today. We don´t say "lads" anymore it´s now "guys" even on boards you´ll see a post more often than not begins with "hey guy". Or, we "hang out" in places now and we got to the "movies" as opposed to the cinema. Or did you see that "movie" or that "TV show" on TV last night. We´ll also hear the more rock types use the word "dude", since when did Irish men use the word dude to refer to each other.

There´s also that very irritating habit that people have of ending every sentence in a high note as if they´re constantly asking a question. Really grates on the ears and just highlights how pretentious Irish people have become over the past few years. TV and radio is also flooded with these phony accents.

I despise that word 'Dude'. I once hit someone a headbut for calling me 'Dude' when I was riotously drunk. Not sure who came out worse of that encounter though.

getz

Denerick wrote: »

I despise that word 'Dude'. I once hit someone a headbut for calling me 'Dude' when I was riotously drunk. Not sure who came out worse of that encounter though.

you now need a accent to be on the british media,no one likes a presenter who speaks the queens english,dident priestley once say,give me a man with a accent,because then i know where he is coming from.

Cianos

The American accent is surely from the amount of TV and movies being watched by children as they're growing up. A childs accent is way more influenced by their surroundings and peers than it is by their parents. That's why, for example, children of Asian immigrants to America will have a distinctive American accent yet their parents will sound very different.

So if you have a young circle of friends who all watch American programmes, and subsequently spend a lot of time talking to each other about those programmes (as children do), it's inevitably going to have a big effect on their accent. The South Dublin accent is quite neutral to begin with, so the influence on it would be that much greater as opposed to other places, even North Dublin.

FlutterinBantam

heh heh It's the tenses that always gets them.

You have what I call 'League of Ireland ManagerSpeak'

Gimps getting big bucks dressed up in bespoke suits, but as soon as they open their mouths, they ruin the show!

'You can't make a silk purse out of a pig's ear' was never truer.

Soon as the first 'done' and 'seen' come out I dismiss them for what they are.


Some people never learn.

Coriolanus

There's more to it than just accent.

My brother has a gf from Kildare, and although she has a neutral enough accent, it's not a heavy Newbridge/Kildare Town twang by any means, a lot of her grammar and phrases would be Kildare through and through.

johnnyskeleton

People have guessed my accent to be from anywhere from North Kerry to Glasgow. Ah sure jaysus.

RIODEJ

i love different cultures, and love different accents even more..

love the italian accent, the iranian accent, the aussie accent is my favourite, russian and canadian are nice too, spanish, mexican and south african are also pretty cool. french accent is nice at time, on the right french woman that is.

hate the american accent, especislly from american lads, hate the dutch accent and most of all i despice the english and northern irish accents!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yuck!!!!!

accents are very important, alot of foreign women love the irish and scottish accents!!! recent study done, irish number 1 and scottish number 2 cool!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/03/irish_accent/

Spiritoftheseventies

Yes you would be surprised how many accents there are even in Dublin. I think there are probably four or five there alone.

Balmed Out

in cork there are loads of different accents and it could be said to be class and locality based though to be fair that can be the same thing. Im sure in dublin its the same most people in d4 wouldnt be working class and ou could say their accent reflected their area or that their accent reflected their class. not a word i like to use anyhow as i dont think we have the same degree of class conciousness as somewhere like england.