Legally of carrying concealed Swiss Army Knife?

jayteecork

Hi,

I just bought a Swiss Army Knife from Amazon.

It contains two sharp blades that could definitely be deemed dangerous.

What I'd like to know am I doing anything illegal by carrying it around in my pocket?

Thanks.

MagicSean

jayteecork wrote: »

Hi,

I just bought a Swiss Army Knife from Amazon.

It contains two sharp blades that could definitely be deemed dangerous.

What I'd like to know am I doing anything illegal by carrying it around in my pocket?

Thanks.

Unless you have a valid reason for carrying it yes you are doing something illegal.

Grolschevik

A valid reason like: it's got a corkscrew, screwdriver and a scissors on it, and it's a pretty useful thing to have on you?

MagicSean

Grolschevik wrote: »

A valid reason like: it's got a corkscrew, screwdriver and a scissors on it, and it's a pretty useful thing to have on you?

No. Thats not a valid reason. A combat knife can be used for hunting but it doesn't mean you can carry it around. A valid reason would be work.

Manach

http://www.wired.com/reviews/product/pr_victorinox_pm_knife?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Index+3+%28Top+Stories+2%29%29&utm_content=Google+International
"I needed it present a powerpoint presentation"

FreudianSlippers

Yes, carrying it would be contrary to Section 9 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act, 1990. Again, you'd have to have a valid reason and I think you'd be very hard-pressed to come up with something to get you off.
Theoretically even carrying a corkscrew, screwdriver or scissors around could be contrary to section 9(1) because of the "any other article which has a blade or which is sharply pointed" part. You'd probably be able to come up with a good explaination to the Gardaí on the spot as to why you were carrying that one of those things, but I doubt you'd be able to justify carrying a knife merely because it has those other things connected to it.

drkpower

Jaysus; why is everyone saying that carrying a Swiss Army knife is going to get you nicked......?

One of the 'defences' is 'recreational uses', which, if undefined (i presume its not), is incredibly wide so in most cases you wont end up in the Joy if you happen to carry the Swiss Army knife with you.

MagicSean

drkpower wrote: »

Jaysus; why is everyone saying that carrying a Swiss Army knife is going to get you nicked......?

One of the 'defences' is 'recreational uses', which, if undefined (i presume its not), is incredibly wide so in most cases you wont end up in the Joy if you happen to carry the Swiss Army knife with you.

Recreation means hunting and camping and fishing.

drkpower

k_mac wrote: »

Recreation means hunting and camping and fishing.

Oh; is it defined as such in the Act/an amending Act?

MagicSean

drkpower wrote: »

Oh; is it defined as such in the Act/an amending Act?

No. Just the way its taken in courts. Recreational use this not include taking it to the pub.

Locust

drkpower wrote: »

Jaysus; why is everyone saying that carrying a Swiss Army knife is going to get you nicked......?

Because you can? Because its an offence? (i.e. the law, people get arrested for this stuff every week).
He would have to show he has it for a good reason, like perhaps hes a boyscout instructor/fishing enthusiast or has it for some other work purposes and can show he was working at the time.

Judges presume recreational purposes to be camping/fishing what else would you use a blade for? Particularly in an urban environment?
Fair enough its got screw drivers, corkscrews and nail files on the thing and these are useful, but its got a knife as well, a blade and thats the offence.
You'd really have to sweet talk the garda and explain a good reason if its found on you, because the judge will just look on it as a pointy blade you had for no 'lawful purpose' in a public place.

drkpower

Locust wrote: »

Judges presume recreational purposes to be camping/fishing what else would you use a blade for?

They do?:rolleyes:

The prohibition in the relevent legislation is on anything 'sharply pointed', not just a blade and it is not an offence if it is for 'recreational uses'. I use 'sharply pointed things' for lots of things, for many many recreational uses.

Gotta do a bit better than 'cos its an offence'...:P

Vegeta

drkpower wrote: »

They do?:rolleyes:

The prohibition in the relevent legislation is on anything 'sharply pointed', not just a blade and it is not an offence if it is for 'recreational uses'. I use 'sharply pointed things' for lots of things, for many many recreational uses.

Gotta do a bit better than 'cos its an offence'...:P

How of often do you carry these "sharply pointed things" around town with you?

fenris

So its time to leave the Mont Blanc pen at home and go back to crayons only from now on!

Pretty much anything harder than skin and a bit pointy can be used as a weapon at least once if enough force is applied.

There are other types of Swiss army knife that do not come equipped with a blade to cater for post 911 hysteria at airports, but the screwdriver or could also be classed as sharply pointed.

Fundamentally it comes back to the basic question of freedom to do that which is not prohibited and what is explicitly prohibited, bearing in mind that your interpretation may differ from that of a judge!

drkpower

Vegeta wrote: »

How of often do you carry these "sharply pointed things" around town with you?

My keys....?
The little knife/bottle opener thingy with 'malta' written on it that has been on my keyring for about 5 years....?

All the time; I guess I better hand myself in:mad:....;)

But in any case, the issue is whether these poointy things are for 'recreational uses' - Im not aware of a definition of same so it will probably be construed broadly. Im not saying it will be legal to carry a swiss army knife in all circumstances, but am simply saying that the knee-jerk reaction of many on here (it is illegal) is not correct. There are so many 'recreational uses' for a swiss army knife that Im sure that a very strong reason for having one could be given in many different scenarios.

PCPhoto

it all comes down to if caught with the (swiss army knife/potential weapon/sharp pointy object) in your possession....what do you say to the gardai ?

your own attitude will determine if you are arrested or if the item is confiscated....lets face it...its illegal but the gardai use common sense in these situations:

if you were walking around at night with a screwdriver ...stopped by gardai ... and you dont work in a trade which uses screwdrivers then you could be in trouble, similarly with a swiss army knife - why carry a "utility tool" (knife) if you are:
A) out on the beer
not working or en route to/from work
C) looking for someone to use it on
D) keeping it in your possession for defending yourself incase of attack
E) holding it for a friend.

even the name ....."swiss army knife" ...its a knife with attachments...ok...maybe thats taking it to the extreme ..."swiss army tool" ...or "utility tool"

MagicSean

I don't know why you're arguing. We're just telling you how it is. Your keys aren't classed as a weapon because they are used for your car. But if you were to try stab someone with them they would be. If you have a screwdriver with you outside a nightclub that would be an offence. Because while a screwdriver has many uses, none of them are in a nightclub. If you have a chisel on your way to work in construction it would not be an offence. It's about the circumstances as well as the object in question.

Vegeta

drkpower wrote: »

My keys....?
The little knife/bottle opener thingy with 'malta' written on it that has been on my keyring for about 5 years....?

All the time; I guess I better hand myself in:mad:....;)

But in any case, the issue is whether these poointy things are for 'recreational uses' - Im not aware of a definition of same so it will probably be construed broadly. Im not saying it will be legal to carry a swiss army knife in all circumstances, but am simply saying that the knee-jerk reaction of many on here (it is illegal) is not correct. There are so many 'recreational uses' for a swiss army knife that Im sure that a very strong reason for having one could be given in many different scenarios.

Don't see any knee jerk reactions to be honest. Not a single one

Everyone has said, it is illegal unless you have a valid reason/recreational use. Which is pretty much exactly your conclusion in the last paragraph

drkpower

k_mac wrote: »

No. Just the way its taken in courts. Recreational use this not include taking it to the pub. .

Sorry.... are you saying that judges always take 'recreational uses' to only mean hunting and camping and fishing.....?!! Recreational uses, of course, could mean taking it to your friends (to open a bottle of wine/a few beers/some soda-pop...); it could mean taking it to the park to do the same; or many many other things..... And yes, there could even be a valid reason to take it to the pub; depends on circumstances.

k_mac wrote: »

I don't know why you're arguing.

Who is arguing?
Im simply pointing out that, because of the 'recreation uses' exemption, there are many many reasons why you could carry a pointed yokeymajigger, and be entirley within the law and cautioned against the vibe on this thread which was essentially 'carrying a swiss army knife is illegal'.

FreudianSlippers

The screwdriver element is irrelevant. Screwdrivers can be considered as sharply pointed instruments under the legislation. In fact, isn't there a case just concluded where the guy stabbed someone in the head with a screwdriver?

Vegeta

drkpower wrote: »

the vibe on this thread which was essentially 'carrying a swiss army knife is illegal' IF YOU DON"T HAVE A VALID REASON.

Fixed that there for you

MagicSean

drkpower wrote: »

Im simply pointing out that, because of the 'recreation uses' exemption, there are many many reasons why you could carry a pointed yokeymajigger, and be entirley within the law and cautioned against the vibe on this thread which was essentially 'carrying a swiss army knife is illegal'.

And I'm pointing out that gardaí and judges wouldn't generally accept those excuses in real life.

drkpower

k_mac wrote: »

And I'm pointing out that gardaí and judges wouldn't generally accept those excuses in real life.

I didnt give any examples and you already tell me the judge wouldnt accept them......?

So first judges only believe hunting and camping to be 'recreational uses'....;)
And now, they wont accept un-named excuses in real life.....:rolleyes:

Good one.

What about if I was going to a friends house with a bottle of wine and a swiss army knife - do you think the judge would accept that one? Or will I be convicted?

rubensni

PCPhoto wrote: »

if you were walking around at night with a screwdriver ...stopped by gardai ... and you don't work in a trade which uses screwdrivers have a reasonable excuse then you could be in trouble

FYP. I could think of a thousand valid reasons why one might be walking around at night with a screwdriver.

jayteecork

Op here, thanks for all the replies.

Since I have no criminal record I assume in the off chance a cop decided to search me (and I've never been searched in my life - don't they need some sort of reason to look into your pockets) he'd just confiscate it or even give it back and tell me not to bring it out again.

MagicSean

drkpower wrote: »

I didnt give any examples and you already tell me the judge wouldnt accept them......?

So first judges only believe hunting and camping to be 'recreational uses'....;)
And now, they wont accept un-named excuses in real life.....:rolleyes:

Good one.

What about if I was going to a friends house with a bottle of wine and a swiss army knife - do you think the judge would accept that one? Or will I be convicted?

drkpower wrote: »

Recreational uses, of course, could mean taking it to your friends (to open a bottle of wine/a few beers/some soda-pop...); it could mean taking it to the park to do the same; or many many other things..... And yes, there could even be a valid reason to take it to the pub; depends on circumstances.

If you're gonna act like a child I don't see any point in discussing this with you. I suggest you try your reasonable excuse in a court and see how you get on.

For the benefit of th OP I will just add that in my experience judges tend to be quite sceptical when it comes to what people claim to be a "reasonable excuse".

drkpower

k_mac wrote: »

For the benefit of th OP I will just add that in my experience judges tend to be quite sceptical when it comes to what people claim to be a "reasonable excuse".

Are you genuinely suggesting that if a Garda (for whatever reason) 'caught' you with a bottle of wine and a swiss army knife, and if for whatever reason the case ended up in court, the judge would not accept your 'defence' that you were going to your friends to open the said bottle of wine......?!!:rolleyes: Is that really what your 'experience' has taught you about what happens at the courts...?

Oh, and btw, is this the same judge who presumes 'recreational uses' to be only camping and fishing.....?!!:D

For the benefit of the OP, do not listen to this guy....!

MagicSean

drkpower wrote: »

Are you genuinely suggesting that if a Garda (for whatever reason) 'caught' you with a bottle of wine and a swiss army knife, and if for whatever reason the case ended up in court, the judge would not accept your 'defence' that you were going to your friends to open the said bottle of wine......?!!:rolleyes: Is that really what your 'experience' has taught you about what happens at the courts...?

Oh, and btw, is this the same judge who presumes 'recreational uses' to be only camping and fishing.....?!!:D

For the benefit of the OP, do not listen to this guy....!

I thought you weren't talking specifics. And you didn't mention carrying a bottle of wine in the example you claim you never used.

And I never said that recreation was limited to camping and hunting. I gave those as examples. I'm not really interested in getting in a tit for tat argument with you. Believe whatever you want.

drkpower

k_mac wrote: »

I thought you weren't talking specifics. And you didn't mention carrying a bottle of wine in the example you claim you never used. .

Look at your own post (#26).

k_mac wrote: »

And I never said that recreation was limited to camping and hunting. I gave those as examples. I'm not really interested in getting in a tit for tat argument with you. Believe whatever you want.

Course you did....

wrote:

drkpower: One of the 'defences' is 'recreational uses'
kmac: Recreation means hunting and camping and fishing.
drkpower: Oh; is it defined as such in the Act/an amending Act?
kmac: No. Just the way its taken in courts. Recreational use this not include taking it to the pub. .

BornToKill

If I may offer something I wrote on this before, I think it comes down to the context, except in the case of offensive weapons which are totally unlawful in a public place.

alexlyons

sorry lads, hate to intrude, but what about my 2 leathermen that I carry? I use them for work, but work is in a specific place, ie not a traveling job. But I also carry at least one almost everywhere I go, obviously not out on the beer but almost everywhere else. Taking photographs, out doing messages, trips away, you name it and its generally with me. I have a keychain one as well. If I'm going shopping, I'd most likely leave it in the car as its a bit of a hassle and I'd have the key chain one for "emergencies"

The main reason I carry the bigger ones is for example, driving to cork the other week, the air intake collapsed, with the leatherman I could take off said section of hose, cut a piece of another hose that was to long for its job and fix the air intake. Without the leatherman I'd be calling the AA or flagging down cars until I found a knife (there were no houses around.

The keychain one is handy at all times, while shopping in a shopping centre, I was sitting eating my lunch, an elderly lady walking by pulling a shopping bag on wheels (you know the yolks) and a wheel came off. I went into a shop, got a wire hanger of them and made a split pin for the wheel. Couldn't have been done without the leatherman unless we sourced down a maintenance guy or similar.

The 2 bigger ones have at least on locking blade each, plus numerous other tools, and other than work I have them on me purely for convenience and the "just in case" scenario. I was stopped once at a checkpoint and the guard saw it on the passenger seat and all he said was "they're great yolks aren't they". Other than work I'd rarely have them on my belt, always in a pocket or similar, purely for convenience.

I hear what your saying about it being potentially illegal etc, but what are your thoughts on the above?

It also shows that IMO the vast majority of guards are normal humans not on a power trip and can understand the need for such tools.

bog master

I have on me now and for the past 30+ years carried a Swiss Army Knife and dont leave home without it. The practical use it provides is immense in so many situations.

The Law and Judges and Courts can go get stuffed, dangerous weapon me arse? Lets outlaw scissors, screwdrivers, Stanley Knives, saws, hatchets, axes, kitchen knives!!!!! Bullfeathers!

Locust

drkpower wrote: »

They do?:rolleyes:
Gotta do a bit better than 'cos its an offence'...:P

I don't have to do any better.:rolleyes: Its an offence to carry a knife,:rolleyes: thats the law - thats it.:rolleyes:
:P
'Recreational purposes' "uh i was fishin/campin" (like every junkie and scumbag says) is a defense that's all, its not an instant get off the hook card. Your reason still has to be damn good one. Just cause you were on your way to 'help your mate open a bottle' that's just a rubbish excuse, its not really a valid reason that a judge would entertain either.
Knife crime is on the rise, its time Ireland started copping on to lads carrying blades out in public for no good reason. You will get lifted, charged and brought before a court if found with a knife on you.

drkpower wrote: »

Courts can go get stuffed, dangerous weapon me arse?

Tell that to the judge/court in the reply to the charge after caution. Its not that its dangerous, its that it has a blade / or is sharply pointed.

rubensni wrote: »

FYP. I could think of a thousand valid reasons why one might be walking around at night with a screwdriver.

That may be true but, a massive amount of crime is committed using screwdrivers and similar pointy implements... legislation & gardai still sees it as an offence.

'carrying a swiss army knife is illegal' IF YOU DON"T HAVE A VALID REASON.' +1

PCPhoto

rubensni wrote: »

FYP. I could think of a thousand valid reasons why one might be walking around at night with a screwdriver.

ok...I'll settle for 10 !!! ....Go !

FreudianSlippers

rubensni wrote: »

FYP. I could think of a thousand valid reasons why one might be walking around at night with a screwdriver.

Maybe if you need one... but it's different if it is in packaging or you're on your way to a job site etc. I really would have to stretch to think of a single other reason to carry one around. Like what would I tell Gardaí if I was walking around with a screwdriver?

jayteecork wrote: »

Op here, thanks for all the replies.

Since I have no criminal record I assume in the off chance a cop decided to search me (and I've never been searched in my life - don't they need some sort of reason to look into your pockets) he'd just confiscate it or even give it back and tell me not to bring it out again.

Honestly, wouldn't count on that. Just saying my personal opinion is if you want to risk it and you don't care then that's ok... but I wouldn't want to take that chance.

bog master wrote: »

I have on me now and for the past 30+ years carried a Swiss Army Knife and dont leave home without it. The practical use it provides is immense in so many situations.

The Law and Judges and Courts can go get stuffed, dangerous weapon me arse? Lets outlaw scissors, screwdrivers, Stanley Knives, saws, hatchets, axes, kitchen knives!!!!! Bullfeathers!

That kind of attitude really bothers me. People who are better than the law, but when it doesn't work in their favour they get all fussy. I also have to say that I am getting really sick of the slippery slope fallacy. played... out...

FreudianSlippers

bog master wrote: »

I have on me now and for the past 30+ years carried a Swiss Army Knife and dont leave home without it. The practical use it provides is immense in so many situations.

The Law and Judges and Courts can go get stuffed, dangerous weapon me arse? Lets outlaw scissors, screwdrivers, Stanley Knives, saws, hatchets, axes, kitchen knives!!!!! Bullfeathers!

I have to post on this again. The more I read it the more I think it is the craziest thing I have ever read.

Honestly, are you serious that you don't believe that it is not in the best interest of the population that people are not allowed carry around sharp instruments willy nilly (for lack of a better phrase)?

What sane, law-abiding person is walking down the street with "scissors, screwdrivers, Stanley Knives, saws, hatchets, axes [and/or] kitchen knives"? Would you honestly say that you would feel safe with allowing people to walk around the place with that/those on them?

Thoie

(From the other thread)

BornToKill wrote: »

I think this is at the heart of the matter. If you are seen carrying a knife at 4pm in the afternoon but you are coming from the river and also carrying a fishing rod you have reasonable excuse. If you - the very same person on the very same day - are found carrying the same knife at 11pm in a nightclub, you will likely be in trouble (section 10 F&OW Act 1990).

I wonder what the situation would be where you had been doing something reasonable earlier the day (bringing a screwdriver to a friend's to help them, erm, screw something), but then you put it in your handbag and forget about it? It's not reasonable to bring a screwdriver to a club, but I'd consider it reasonable to have forgotten there's one at the bottom of your handbag (along with expired bus tickets, 2 old lipsticks, and coins in a currency that no longer exists). Would other people consider that reasonable?

drkpower

Thoie wrote: »

(From the other thread)

I wonder what the situation would be where you had been doing something reasonable earlier the day (bringing a screwdriver to a friend's to help them, erm, screw something), but then you put it in your handbag and forget about it? It's not reasonable to bring a screwdriver to a club, but I'd consider it reasonable to have forgotten there's one at the bottom of your handbag (along with expired bus tickets, 2 old lipsticks, and coins in a currency that no longer exists). Would other people consider that reasonable?

Yes; and so would any judge, unless there was a reason otherwise or a reason to think you are telling porkies. It is all about the context and the circumstances, despite the waffle being talked here about Gardai/judges dismissing as rubbish an excuse such as being en route to a friends house with a bottle of wine and a cork-screw/swiss army knife. Unless there was sometihng to show the contrary, of course that excuse would be accepted. If you were nowhere near your friends house, if you or he had no wine, if your swiss army knife had blood on it, perhaps the equation would change.....

What we are talking about is a criminal offence and judges here dont criminalise people that easily; and certainly not where there is a reasonable excuse staring them in the face.

MagicSean

drkpower wrote: »

Yes; and so would any judge, unless there was a reason otherwise or a reason to think you are telling porkies. It is all about the context and the circumstances, despite the waffle being talked here about Gardai/judges dismissing as rubbish an excuse such as being en route to a friends house with a bottle of wine and a cork-screw/swiss army knife. Unless there was sometihng to show the contrary, of course that excuse would be accepted. If you were nowhere near your friends house, if you or he had no wine, if your swiss army knife had blood on it, perhaps the equation would change.....

What we are talking about is a criminal offence and judges here dont criminalise people that easily; and certainly not where there is a reasonable excuse staring them in the face.

Christ. Let it go already. In your original post(#19) you never said you had a wine bottle. You said you were on your way to help your friend open a bottle or you were on your way to the park to help someone open a bottle. If you were found in a park with a cork screw at night and your excuse was "I'm looking for my friend he needs a bottle opened" you would find yourself in court and a judge would be unlikely to believe you.

The fact that an item, wether it be a screwdriver, swiss army knife or leatherman, is useful does not excuse you from the legislation. There are a number of circumstances which will be looked at. The time of day plays a big part. As does the place you have it in, the number of people around, as well as its accessability to you. If it's buried in your bag or in the boot of your car you don't have immediate access to it. But if it's in your pocket or sitting on the passenger seat beside you it is more likely you would be charged. They will also look at wether or not you declared it before being searched. If you are being searched and it is found and you haven't said it was on you you look more guilty.

drkpower

k_mac wrote: »

Christ. Let it go already. In your original post(#19) you never said you had a wine bottle. You said you were on your way to help your friend open a bottle or you were on your way to the park to help someone open a bottle. If you were found in a park with a cork screw at night and your excuse was "I'm looking for my friend he needs a bottle opened" you would find yourself in court and a judge would be unlikely to believe you..

Christ. Let it go already. In my original post(#19) I said this:

'Recreational uses, of course, could mean taking it to your friends (to open a bottle of wine/a few beers/some soda-pop...). It could mean taking it to the park to do the same; or many many other things.....'

You assumed I meant I was going to my friends to 'help him with his wine bottle....'?:D You must be pretty tight; when I turn up to my friends with a bottle opener, I tend to be in possession of the bottle as well......:rolleyes:

Anyway, its good to hear that there are a number of circumstances which will be looked at, and that 'recreation' doesnt just mean hunting and camping and fishing.

BornToKill

Okay, here is an interesting example of context from today's Metro Herald on a man with a chainsaw. Clearly, it is not always an offence to have a chainsaw but it can be dependent on the context.

mikemac

Just about every farmer walks around with a Swiss army knife or leatherman knife.

Invaluable things, you should have one with you in your vehicle or pocket at all times.
You'd find some reason to use it every day.

I've carried them around shops, marts, farming supplies, creamery and all sorts of places.
But during a working day, never at night or in a pub and I suppose that's the key point.

Having said that a good barman should also have a Swiss army knife, I always did anyway.
The knife is for cutting open newspaper bundles and opening boxes and the corkscrew, well that's self explanatory.

But the farmer and barman are working and out and about on business and can easily explain why they use it.
Once you need it and any reasonable person can see why you have it, should no issue.
No way in hell would a garda charge you with for carrying a concealed weapon when walking home from work, like a farm or bar.

Zambia

To be done for this I imagine a Garda has to summons you for it. I for one cannot imagine a Garda wasting his time summonsing anyone for carrying a swiss army knife. Unless there was a pretty clear case presenting itself that they where intending mischief.