Yet another advice thread - training for Half

brownian

Oh ye of much experience... some advice would be much appreciated.

Background: I'm running three times a week. Typically 10k two days a week, in about 40-42 minutes (flat, offroad, park course), and one longer (15k) at the weekend, usually about 1:05 or so (hilly forest track). Ran 38:05 at the Great Ireland last week, 1:32 Connemara Half two weeks ago and 2:59:40 DCM2009.

Objective: I'd like to take some time off my Half Marathon BP (1:25 or so, 2009 Connemara Half) and have signed up for the Kildare Half (09 May), as it seems a bit more speed-friendly than Connemara.

Question: what's the most productive way to spend three running sessions a week between now and 09 May? I know, it's all very short-term and I should have thought of this long ago. I have excuses, but they're not good ones.

Thanks a lot!

RoyMcC

I think that you could also count yourself a runner of some experience and certainly ability! I reckon you'd probably conclude yourself that, only running three times a week, you need to make each one count. Try looking at this site which seeks to achieve just that within a Half training programme.

brownian

Thank you - this is pretty good... should I just jump in at the "three weeks to go" level ? The (for me) novel part of this is spending one day's running doing ....

10-20 minute warm-up

6 x 800m (1:30 Rest Interval), at 10K pace (say 3:15 for 800m)

10 minute cool-down

Apologies for basic questions - really all I do is "go for a run", but I suspect there's a better way...

Thank you again

I particularly like the advice on the next page - "Drink Your Way to a Faster Marathon"... my dream program

RoyMcC

If I were in your position I'd jump straight in - you appear to be able to handle both the miles and the speed. Don't forget the two days cross training as well

If you're really just heading out without a plan and achieving those results then you have the potential to do very well imo.

Krusty_Clown

For a bit of variety, you could try one of Tergat's sessions. But if you're not really doing a structured program already, then (congrats you have a lot of untapped potential!) the intervals and tempo sessions alone will be a bit of variety.

brownian

Thank you. I did some reading on tempo sessions, but they seem to be basically "warm up, go hardish, warm down"... which is what I do anyway. Did I miss something ?

I have been loosely experimenting with "one km @4:30-40, two km @3:30" (and repeat), which seems to be a rather unstructured sort of interval (too much rest, I fear).

The perceived benefit I got from even this level of experimentation is what prompted me to post here... why make it up when there are people who actually know what they're talking about?

Might be a bit old to have potential though (42) 8-]

mloc123

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

For a bit of variety, you could try one of Tergat's sessions. But if you're not really doing a structured program already, then (congrats you have a lot of untapped potential!) the intervals and tempo sessions alone will be a bit of variety.

You don't have a link to these famous Tergat's sessions do you? Saw misty floyd mention them quite a bit also... sound good.

misty floyd

mloc123 wrote: »

You don't have a link to these famous Tergat's sessions do you? Saw misty floyd mention them quite a bit also... sound good.

Here is one of Tergats threads I have bookmarked: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055670655

aero2k

Here's a poorly edited collection of some of Tergat's posts - easy to read and pleny of good stuff in there depending on your current focus.

Marathon

There is a lot of physiology behind the marathon with the three key areas being:
1) Teaching your body to adapt to the pounding of running 26 miles
2) Teaching your body to better utilise fats and spare glycogen
3) Prepare your mind for going the full distance

Some people are not mentally strong enough to finish a marathon at a pace they are capable of, that is a fact. There is not much you can do with them they just will never race like they should unless they sort their mind out so to speak. Others are very strong mentally and will race hard and come through on the right side.

Marathon running is a big challenge. Covering 26.2 miles by foot at a good pace is not easy. To do the event well, one must have performed excellent training for several months. I do NOT believe in “surviving” a marathon, people should train for it the right way. Committed runners should prepare well five to six months prior to a marathon race, at least. The first two to three months should be focused on 5km-10k training. The last two to four months should be marathon-specific training. During 10k training, one should focus on consistently doing the types of workouts that lay the foundation for marathon-specific training. Ive posted some stuff below which I have put up here before.

Re Long Runs you have to start with building time on your feet and can be a slow as you want. As you build to your target long run time e.g 2 hrs 20 mins, you can then add some quality to the end of the run. E.g 2 hrs easy & 20 mins @ Marathon pace. 5-6 weeks out from the Marathon you can do something like 10 mile easy & 10 miles @ Marathon pace.

Let’s look at 10k training in more detail. In truth, there are many ways to prepare for this event but, in brief, two main approaches are viable:
Approach # 1: Run moderate mileage every week and do plenty of faster paced interval, tempo, or varied paced speed sessions. By moderate mileage I mean ~110 miles per week for elite runners, ~80-90 miles per week for semi-elites, ~60-70 miles per week for “club” runners, ~ 40-50 miles per week for “local” runners, and ~30 miles per week for novice runners.
Approach # 2: Run high mileage and do less fast running. By high mileage I mean ~125 miles per week for elite runners, ~ 105 miles per week for semi-elite runners, ~ 85 miles per week for club runners, ~ 65 miles per week for local runners, and ~ 45 miles per week for novice runners. You should not do long, fast runs during 10k training, even if you are doing high mileage. However, you could do many double day runs – two runs per day - to elevate aerobic volume. An elite and semi-elite runner using this method would run 90-120 minute per day in most cases. A club and local runner would cover 60-90 minutes of running most days (a weekly single run of 90-120 minutes is fine). A novice runner would cover 30-60 minutes of running most days (a weekly 90 minute run would be fine) and have 1-2 days of rest per week, too. It should be “balanced training.” It should be consistent and moderate in how much fast running you do. You should reach the end of your 10k training phase without fatigue, injury or malaise! Avoid the trap of racing too often: it would deplete your adaptive reserves. Use common sense and be patient. Never run “super-hero workouts” and be sure to take care of the little details like icing sore spots, backing off when you feel pain or exhaustion, eating right, and getting enough sleep. Remember, you want to be “hungry” to start marathon-specific training!

Marathon Training is all about two words: Big/Long Workouts (Long Runs with quality included). It really is that simple. Whenever you prepare for the marathon, you need to do workouts that last a long time, twice per week. If you have a history of injuries or breaking down easily that may mean you should do only One Big Workout per week. However, most runners who do it this way find that the shorter, slower runs between the Big Workouts make all the difference in the world. Many runners have made comments about how good they feel doing Big Workouts because they aren’t running too much distance work between each Big Workout. That is, they are using a bigger variance between the important (key) workouts and the regular, every day, runs. For example, a club runner using a different training program might be running 10 milers every day between harder workouts but when using this Marathon Training method they run just 7 miles between key workouts.
I’ve never believed that high mileage is necessarily the best way to train for marathons. Though mileage builds aerobic capacity, it is not specific. Big Workouts, on the other hand, are specific. They simulate the demands of the event. That’s the key!

Big workouts vary in length or duration relative to a runner’s ability and experience, but generally “Big” means at least 70-90 minutes of continuous running. When you run more than 80-90 minutes three important elements of exercise physiology are improved: glycogen storing, fat burning, and shock absorption. This doesn’t even include the mental elements: relaxation while tired, concentration, and tenacity. Do take care to build up to Big Workouts slowly. Be sure to have a medical test before attempting any training schedule. It is assumed that you should be healthy and have no injuries. It is also assumed that you have built up to such workouts over many weeks and months.
Examples (Each to include 2-4 miles warm up and warm down):
-4 x 2-3 miles @ MP, jog 2 minutes between, then 6 x 100 @ 5k, jog 100
- 4 x 1.5-2 miles @ HMP, jog 2 minutes between, then 6 x 100m @ 5k, jog 100

I suggest that you pick one of three peaking plans: short, medium or long duration. Choose the one that fits your situation and needs. The short peak phase lasts 4-5 days only. The medium one lasts 8-10 days. The long one last 15-21 days. If in doubt, pick the middle one.

Long runs are a critical element of marathon training, but it is important to back off the duration so that your legs won,t be too sore on race day. If you having been really pushing the mileage high and your long runs long, then start tapering the long runs about 4-5 weeks before race day. If you have been reasonable and not overextending yourself, your last long run can be 22 days before your race. I suggest cutting your long run by 20-25% on day 15 before your race and 30-35% on day 8 before your race. For example, if you have been running 20 milers regularly for a long run, then two weekends before your race run 15 miles only at an easy to moderate speed. Then, one weekend before your event run 13 miles at a Slow pace.
Key workouts are an important consideration too. In the last three weeks, I suggest you do one mid-week workout that is a bit more speedy than your long run. The three key workouts I recommend in order of succession are as follows:
1) warmup, run 5,4,3,2,1 mile at Marathon Pace (be realistic), rest 2-3 minutes between each, cool-down; (if in doubt, skip the 5 mile rep)
2) warmup, run 5-6 x 1 mile at Lactate Threshold Pace, jog 1-2 minutes between each, cool-down;
3) warmup, run 2 x 1 mile at 10k pace, jog 2 minutes between, cool-down.

So a typical week during Marathon buildup (last 12 weeks) may look like this:
M- Easy 4-8 miles
T- Easy 4-8 miles & 6*100m strides
W- Big Workout as above
T- Easy 4-8 miles
F- Rest
S- Easy 4-8 miles & 6*100m strides
S- Long Run 2hrs + with last 2-5 miles at MP

Tergat

General

Key factors people should look at when training hard are as follows:

1) Performance level. A fitter runner can absorb more fast running without breaking down.

2) Training consistency. A runner who trains at a decent level for several weeks or months without having setbacks or time off due to injury or illness can handle more quality training per workout and per week.

3) Technical skill. Someone who "pounds the ground," overstrides, leans too much or pronates too much is more likely to have problems when doing high volume quality training.

4) Weekly aerobic volume. A runner who has been covering more miles per week, for several weeks, can handle more quality interval work than one who has been doing lower mileage over a shorter time-frame.

5) Life stress. If you work a lot and have family obligations, you can't do as much quality interval training per workout or per week as someone who is "stress-free." The same applies for school kids, use plenty high end aerobic work while keeping in touch with basic speed, keep them training consistant and injury free and watch the results!!!

Remember you can only train as hard as you can recover!!!

Tergat

I think there needs to be a balance between running slow for long distances and doing long runs with some marathon pace added to it. Obviously when beginning a plan for a marathon you have to gradually build up your long run over the weeks, to a certain point bet it 16 miles or 22 miles depending on your background. When you body has adapted to running the distance of your long run at an easy pace, THEN you can start adding some marathon paced miles in the last 2-4 miles of the run and eventually progressing on to runs such as 10 miles @easy pace and 8-10 miles @marathon pace.

You CANNOT just jump into doing a long run with marathon pace straight away. You body needs to adapt to the stress and you have to build up the distance & pace of your long run over time. The real key of running long is stated below.

By doing long runs and long workouts three important things happen:

1) Improved ability to deal with race trauma - the thousands and thousands of fast-paced steps you'll be taking are hard on legs if they are not specifically prepared for the demands

2) Improved fuel storage and use - increased stores of glycogen and better use of both glycogen and fatty acids to allow your body to "go the distance"

3) Improved efficiency, measured in economy normally. Economy is the amount of oxygen it costs you to run a given pace, normally submaximal pace. When you do a lot of distance running at or near your marathon pace, you improve your efficiency and thus reduced the amount of oxygen cost needed to run at that pace. So, the major result is less use of fuel while running that pace. And, since you have a limited supply of glycogen fuel, you'll be able to run further with the same amount of fuel.

Tergat

Tempo

Tempos have different meanings to different people. To me, it is a range of intensities from just above moderate to just below hard paces.

In my opinion, what you use for tempos depends upon (at least) four factors:

1) your current fitness level. The slower you are or the less fit you are the more likely you should use lower intensities;

2) your goal race-distance. The shorter the race distance distance the more important it would be to use harder (faster) tempos in training;

3) your time-frame. If you are far away from your goal race, using lower intensity, longer duration tempos is a good idea (this is my opinion based on experience only). The closer you are to a race the more important it is to simulate the type of intensity you'll be facing in a race. Thus, if you were close to a big 5k race then using fast tempos would be a good idea. If you are close to a marathon race, longer but slower tempos would probably work well and be the most helpful in terms of improving race-performance.

4) your natural capacities. Simply put, one runner may thrive on faster but shorter tempos while another may thrive on longer and slower tempos. It's a personal thing.


Some Guidelines below (Remember use CURRENT pace):
Long Tempos - Current 5k plus plus about 1:15-1:30 per minute
Medium Tempos - Current 5k pace plus 45-60 seconds per mile.
Short Tempos - Current 5k pace plus 30-45 seconds per mile
CV Intervals - Current 5k pace plus 8-12 seconds per km

CV pace is the center of the training zone or range for distance runners, it covers 95% of all the things you need. It raises VO2 max. It raises LT or AnT or whatever you want to call it. It improves efficiency. It raises overall leg strength (substantially more than easy distance running) and nearly as much as much as VO2 max - which is 100% of aerobic power - because you can do a lot of CV compared to VO2 max pace.

The above are examples of straight tempos continuos 3-8 mile runs. LT intervals can be anything from 800m-3 mile reps broken up by 30 secs-3 mins jog recoveries.

LT Workout ideas: without getting fancy, use the following rules of thumb:

Short intervals (800m reps): 5k pace plus 20 seconds per mile (rest 30 sec. per 800)

Medium intervals (1 mile reps): 5k pace plus 30 seconds per mile (rest 1 minute per mile)

Long intervals (1.5 mile reps): 5k pace plus 40 seconds per mile (rest 1.5 minutes per 1.5 miles)

People can also go by time eg 3*10 mins or 4*8 mins etc and use a HR monitor and go by feel (this is best way to go about it, listen to your own body). You can also use progression runs of say 40-70 mins starting easy and moving into a steady pace after say 20 mins and finish strong but no faster then 10 mile race pace. These are really beneficial but need to keep controlled.

Lactate Threshold pace is (theoretically) the fastest pace you can hold before lactate rises at a substantially elevated and disproportional rate. Typically coaches talk about 1-hr race pace when using the term LT. Physiologists use laboratory methods or techniques to identify LT.

There is debate about LT. Some people argue about how it is assessed. Others argue about whether it really exists. In a practical way, it doesn’t matter if it really exists. What counts is this: The speed, velocity or power output at a given sub-max lactate does relate directly to metabolic demands and efficiency. If you train wisely, you will be able to run faster or generate more power at a given lactate level. This means you’ll race faster. If you ran 6:00 per mile pace at a 4 mmol of lactate a month ago and now you run 5:52, then your training was effective. That is what counts.

But REMEMBER this training takes TIME to develop but if you decide to go with it, YOU WILL reap the rewards. It is what gives you the strength to hold a given race pace from any distance 800m-Marathon.

Hope that helps somewhat.

Tergat

General

1) On your easy days slow down. Overal, use common sense. If your running is comfortable and somewhat slow, but not too slow, then it is probably recovery training and beneficial. Running very slowly is ok in certain circumstances. When you are recovering from a hard workout, it is an excellent choice. Not only does slow running facilitate recovery by moving out damaged tissue and supplying nutrients for repair, it keeps the capillaries open and the mitochondria of slow twitch fibers stimulated.

If you are going to run an important race soon and you have only done very slow distance running, you may have good aerobic endurance and your slow twitch muscle fibers are fit, but you won't be able to use your fast twitch (oxidative or glycolytic) much at all. Thus, you won't have power to get the speed to a good level. But, it only takes a handful of faster sessions to get that power up and to get those fast fibers functioning well.

The worst thing you can do is run too fast on a regular basis. You burn up your glycogen and thus have no energy to run really fast in a race. And, I think you probably jeopardize your health, too, because your endrocrine system becomes exhausted. Thus, you'll become ill quite easily. If you run too fast on your distance runs between scheduled key sessions, then you won't run your key sessions very well. So, you might as well not run key sessions if you run fast on a daily basis.

Tergat

Big Workouts

Rotating a CV rep workout and a tempo every other week is a good choice but do both in a 'Big workout' fashion. Some examples below:

Two key days for the week are say Wed & Sun for big workout/Long Run and the rest is easy 3-8 mile runs with 2 days of strides added.

Big Workout examples for Tempo/CV would be:

CV- 2-5 miles easy, 6-8*1km with 90 secs jog rec, 2-5 miles easy (Total on avg 14 miles which is SPECIFIC to the Marathon)

Tempo- 2-5 miles easy, 4-8 mile tempo, 2-3 miles easy (Again a long time on your feet but SPECIFIC to the Marathon)

Can you see how the tempo/cv reps are tailored to be specific to the Marathon? If doing same for 5km/10km you may just do 1-2 miles warm up and warm down but with breaks in between. For Marathon workouts you do the whole lot straight with no breaks (just like the race).

Again how many miles you decide to cover in total depends on your age, ability, experience, time on your hands, injury history ..................

Tergat

10k

I just had a look at the Hal Higdon 10k program you posted a link to. The mile workouts are very tough for most people, they are overkill. Doing 6-8*400m @mile pace with 90 secs-3 mins jog rec is enough for most runners. Trying to do 12 will send anyone right over the edge unless you are a sub 4 minute miler. Be careful with these workouts.

If you want to improve over 5km/10km just run some easy mileage, do one long run over hills per week as well as one tempo/LT workout and one workout with 5km/10km paced reps. Progress the workouts over the weeks such as for 5km:
10-15*400m with 60 secs jog rec
7*10*600m with 75 secs jog rec
6-8*800m with 90 secs jog rec
4-6*1000m with 2 mins jog rec
4-5*1200m with 2.5 mins jog rec
2-4*1600m with 3 mins jog rec

What will happen if you do only mile pace workouts is you will find the pace easy for the 1st half of your 5km/10km race and bonk in the 2nd half. If you want to do some mile pace stuff why not do on your tempo/LT day something like this:
- 3*8-10 mins LT workout (steady state running) with 2 mins jog rec followed by 4*200m @ mile pace with 90 secs jog. This is far better for you and the longer races unless you are aiming for the mile specifically.

Tergat

Krusty_Clown

brownian wrote: »

Thank you. I did some reading on tempo sessions, but they seem to be basically "warm up, go hardish, warm down"... which is what I do anyway. Did I miss something ?

Not really, that's essentially it, except it tends to be progressive, rather than 'go out and run 10k in 42 mins'. So one session might be 10 miles with 5 miles @race pace, and the next week it might be 12 miles with 6@ race pace, so it's always progressing you towards your goal, or improving your lactate threshold levels etc. Same for the intervals. You don't just run the same sequence ever week. On the recent P&D program I followed, the distance increased, until the week before the marathon, where you were doing 3x1,600 @5K pace, which by that stage would feel pretty comfortable.

Maybe you're already following the ideal training guide for you. Just thinking out loud that hitting sub-3 on a pretty unstructured program, might suggest that you could run a lot faster, by following a more structured program. Age isn't really relevant. Sure, we might be too old to hit 2:30, but we can still make a good account of ourselves and teach these youngsters what a bit of hard training can do for you.