new enterprise and no help

dromarka

Hi all
i am in the process of setting up a new business enterprise which would initially employ 4 people with the potential to employ many more
have been on to many government bodies to seek assistance and have been met with a negative response mainly because a small element involves importing parts which are not currently manufactured here from a company in the uk
all these agencies seem to be interested in are companies which have export potential
im looking to put in a substantial amount of money myself and would appreciate any comments from people who had similar experience
thanks in advance

Southsider1

Taken from a County Enterprise Board site:

Projects cannot be assisted financially where they do not substantially comply with the criteria outlined above, or where any of the following apply:

• Primary agriculture production is involved
• The project involves wholesale, retail or transport services
• The project is a professional service
• The project is a construction trade
• The provision of financial assistance from the CEB has the potential to lead to job displacement or result in unfair competition
• The provision of financial assistance duplicates support available from existing programme and/or other agency
• The project can be implemented without financial assistance from the CEB
• The proposal is at variance with national and/or EU policies (e.g. de minimis rules)

So, you see, It pretty much rules out every type of enterprise! I've posted on here before, how useless I think the enterprise boards are. Just another state sponsored quango in place to waste money. They're blinkered on export businesses only. You could be exporting dog sh1t and they'll give you a grant but provide ten jobs in, say, retail and you've no chance!

Don't give up yet though! There are other ways. It would help if I knew how much you need to raise. (PM me if you wish) You could look to your local Credit Union if it's not too much. Some may go up to 50k so that's not too bad. There are various 'Angel Investor' organisations who may be interested and there may be other regional initiatives, again, depending where you live. There are also EU grants available, again, depending on your project.

stepbar

It's the way is has to be.... We have to export. Just like the way we found out that internal demand for housing is not a sustainable market. There's no other option but to export. I'm glad that it's difficult to get funding as the best ideas with the best potential should get it. However, the CEB model is certainly broke. They've spend too long promoting mediocrity. There should be only 1-2 CEB's in a region and certainly not one in each county. And furthermore they should be more focused on perhaps micro start-ups with good export potential. As the company grows, Enterprise Ireland should come in and help accelerate development to a more scalable level.

The problem that there are very few good ideas and perhaps even fewer ideas that are scalable to a mass audience. I mean how many indigenous companies have come out of Ireland with a sustainable business model and have made it internationally? Very few. After years of an unsustainable building boom, the Irish are slowing getting round to understanding the concept of exporting. Problem is... slowly is not good enough... it needs to happen now.

Southsider1

Stepbar, while your theory is understandable it's not viable. The CEBs do not provide enough funding combined with their criteria for said funding to set up any kind of sustainable export operation. Your theory is that they are right to support only exporters is flawed in that their criteria is also that they will only support businesses with less than ten employees.

D.W

Dromarka-are you based in Dublin or a more rural location? Makes a difference with available funding if your proposed enterprise were more rural and you demonstrated the ability to create jobs. For example I know that in Wexford WLD (Wexford Local Development) have a LOT of money they want to give out and could be the same in other non city locations. They do offer funds for Business Creation and Development but it needs to tie in with a "local" slant.

I'd agree with the comments made on the CEBS-the guys that administer them never had a go at a business themselves in most cases and are blinkered in their thinking and its all red tape crap.

Southsider1

D.W. Do you have any contacts at WLD? Please PM them if you do. I tried their website but the links don't seem to be working.

stepbar

Southsider1 wrote: »

Stepbar, while your theory is understandable it's not viable. The CEBs do not provide enough funding combined with their criteria for said funding to set up any kind of sustainable export operation. Your theory is that they are right to support only exporters is flawed in that their criteria is also that they will only support businesses with less than ten employees.

And I also said that the CEB model is broken. The rules can be changed.

Anyhow, what you're saying is that you effectively can't start up an export led growth business with less than 10 employees? What a load of tut.

Southsider1

Not one with any kind of serious volume that makes the kind of economic impact their criteria dictates! Not Tut my friend... commonense!

stepbar

Did you not read what I said?

The CEB model is broke. You answered a different question altogether.

dromarka

The problem that there are very few good ideas and perhaps even fewer ideas that are scalable to a mass audience. I mean how many indigenous companies have come out of Ireland with a sustainable business model and have made it internationally? Very few. After years of an unsustainable building boom, the Irish are slowing getting round to understanding the concept of exporting. Problem is... slowly is not good enough... it needs to happen now.[/QUOTE]

hi stepbar
sorry but you seem to have a blinkered view as to what constitutes a viable business, whereby if i was manufacturing leprecaun hats for export you would be in favour of it, but a viable irish based business, creating employment you are against dont you see that a single minded policy like the one you advocate is no better than the single minded property led boom we are dealing with now.
what we now need is a broad raft of business start ups to provide both export income and and create employment in the home market

and dw yes im based in dublin but i do not think that should make a jot of difference to assistance as my bus. plan shows the immediate creation of 4 jobs with that doubling every six months over the 3 year span of the business which is 128 jobs!
there are politicians tripping over themselves to announce new jobs these days yet i seem to get nowhere

thanks for all your input btw

IrishInnovation

Dromarka,

govt and govt agencies are a distraction. They limit who and how they help to create a sense of lack; forcing a mindset and belief that 'there is not enough' to go round.

I wouldn't waste any time or lose any sleep over these people whose very structures are there to support them and keep them in cosy positions.

EI for example boasts that it supported 90-odd companies last year; it should be quadruple that in this time of extraordinary change...

DoMyBooks

Sometime ago I tried to contact the Galway enterprise board for assistance with a new business. I didn't have much luck so I posted up the details of my experience here on my blog.

As I wasn't impressed with their service I passed the details of my grievence onto the local media to see would the attention improve the service they provide. Two weeks later this article pops up in one of the papers I emailed.

Seems the boys club is alive and well in Galway

Unsurprisingly two days after the blog post there was a reply to my email.

Southsider1

Excellent blog but tragic really. Tragic in the sense that we have a country full of imaginative and enterprising people being stifled by Government bodies. I guess the CEBs are busy arranging major exports of manufactured...... ah....... stories!?:rolleyes:

D.W

dromarka wrote: »

and dw yes im based in dublin but i do not think that should make a jot of difference to assistance as my bus. plan shows the immediate creation of 4 jobs with that doubling every six months over the 3 year span of the business which is 128 jobs!
there are politicians tripping over themselves to announce new jobs these days yet i seem to get nowhere

thanks for all your input btw

I actually think you may be wrong with regards the location if you are seeking funding. A lot of "rural" type areas would bite the hand off you and provide funding IF the idea was viable (which I don't doubt it is) and jobs were to be created. Many "local" development organisations have a lot of funds that they won't get after 2013 unless they allocate what they have already. Assume this makes no difference to you but just saying.....

dromarka

Thanks DW
im sure your right but as a sevice type operation we need to be amongst centres of population ,and while i agree that there needs to be developement of industry in rural areas there is a possibility that these local developement boards may spend funds on possibly less viable projects just to be seen to do something and in order to maintain funding
i was in talks with a local department early this week who showed no interest whatsoever in my proposal but was very keen for me to look at taking up one of their enterprise units:mad:
i hope someone posts a good review of a gov developement agency soon as it might restore all our faith in such organisations but i wonder should i be holding my breath for that

unklerosco

I've been in touch with our local enterprise board... As was said above, if u can export ur sorted... We've been going 7 month and employ 3 people part time, with another 2 starting in the next few weeks. By September that will rise to 10 people(mostly part time but about 3 full time) and keep on growing. They'd no interest...

Best thing I've gotten from the enterprise board is the start your own business course and some of the free seminars...

stepbar

dromarka wrote: »

hi stepbar
sorry but you seem to have a blinkered view as to what constitutes a viable business, whereby if i was manufacturing leprecaun hats for export you would be in favour of it, but a viable irish based business, creating employment you are against dont you see that a single minded policy like the one you advocate is no better than the single minded property led boom we are dealing with now.
what we now need is a broad raft of business start ups to provide both export income and and create employment in the home market

and dw yes im based in dublin but i do not think that should make a jot of difference to assistance as my bus. plan shows the immediate creation of 4 jobs with that doubling every six months over the 3 year span of the business which is 128 jobs!
there are politicians tripping over themselves to announce new jobs these days yet i seem to get nowhere

thanks for all your input btw

A blinkered view huh :rolleyes:

So tell me... who are your competitors? How do you think they will repond to you? Well let me tell you... they'll either cut jobs or cut costs (which will ultimately effect jobs elsewhere). And whilst you might announce a 100 jobs down the line another number of jobs are lost somewhere else. We are now in a contracting economy and that's what happens.

Exporting provides the only real avenue for "real" sustainable growth in terms of jobs and wealth creation etc. It's not rocket science. Ireland has a population of over 5 million, Europe over 300million and so on internationally. And whilst I'm all for someone starting a business that sets out to do something that someone else is not doing well but don't fool yourself, it won't create a net job effect. If you want to add jobs to the economy you must be export led otherwise you're only, to paraphrase a well known saying, "robbing Peter to pay Paul".

PhatPiggins

stepbar wrote: »

A blinkered view huh :rolleyes:

So tell me... who are your competitors? How do you think they will repond to you? Well let me tell you... they'll either cut jobs or cut costs (which will ultimately effect jobs elsewhere). And whilst you might announce a 100 jobs down the line another number of jobs are lost somewhere else. We are now in a contracting economy and that's what happens.

Exporting provides the only real avenue for "real" sustainable growth in terms of jobs and wealth creation etc. It's not rocket science. Ireland has a population of over 5 million, Europe over 300million and so on internationally. And whilst I'm all for someone starting a business that sets out to do something that someone else is not doing well but don't fool yourself, it won't create a net job effect. If you want to add jobs to the economy you must be export led otherwise you're only, to paraphrase a well known saying, "robbing Peter to pay Paul".

But surely if the incumbents are that easily threatened by a new entrant then they aren't operating efficiently enough to begin. Competition is the ultimate stimulator of proficeincy.

Your theory is too black and white. There doesn't automatically have to be only enough cake for Peter and none for Paul, the existing company could concievably be a dominant player or operate in a market with little competition but there still can be enough revenue for new entrants.

By and large I agree with what your saying but having dealt with EI before I think their focus is too narrow, not only on export based business but they have a particular love of high tech/high failure rate ideas.

Red Sheds

In reply to stepbars last post, in relation to export led business, I agree , Ireland to have a very strong export focus. However there are circumstances where non export type business, dont create a job displacement effect. For example if its replacing something that we import at present, if its a new product or service we dont have right now, but a demand can be stimulated for. Also there is a socio economic arguement that some local services should be supported in particular areas as they fulfil a critical social need.

In relation to seeking support from Govt agencies, I agree with the Poster who says to try your local Rural and Local Development Company for support. They have alot of funds and are eager to support business projects. Even if you dont get a grant, dont despair, the main thing you need in business to survive is passion and determination. Have these and you wont need a grant, you might not get where you want to go as fast, but you will get there. Also bear in mind grants are sometimes not all they are cracked up to be, for example you cannot get a grant on second hand equipment, you are forced to buy new, where as many times good secondhand is a better option, especially now when show rooms are packed with quality second hand stuff of all varieties.

Good luck with the Business.

dromarka

stepbar wrote: »

A blinkered view huh :rolleyes:

So tell me... who are your competitors? How do you think they will repond to you? Well let me tell you... they'll either cut jobs or cut costs (which will ultimately effect jobs elsewhere). And whilst you might announce a 100 jobs down the line another number of jobs are lost somewhere else. We are now in a contracting economy and that's what happens.

Exporting provides the only real avenue for "real" sustainable growth in terms of jobs and wealth creation etc. It's not rocket science. Ireland has a population of over 5 million, Europe over 300million and so on internationally. And whilst I'm all for someone starting a business that sets out to do something that someone else is not doing well but don't fool yourself, it won't create a net job effect. If you want to add jobs to the economy you must be export led otherwise you're only, to paraphrase a well known saying, "robbing Peter to pay Paul".

Again you have made assumptions
there are currently no competitors for the service/product im bringing to market.
you have a very single minded response but if you were willing to look a bit deeper you might become a little more enlightened it isnt just about working harder to get the economy going,and it certainly isnt all about exports, all we have to do is look at how unstable export led economies can be,a lot of far eastern countries with massive export surplus dont seem to be that better off.
consider for a moment if you will that if i manage to have an original idea that is proven in the home market then there is no reason why that should not become an export in the future.
i mean we can all cook a burger but mc donalds have managed to do it worldwide
as for finance have a meeting with the bank next week will let you know

maninasia

stepbar wrote: »

It's the way is has to be.... We have to export. Just like the way we found out that internal demand for housing is not a sustainable market. There's no other option but to export. I'm glad that it's difficult to get funding as the best ideas with the best potential should get it. However, the CEB model is certainly broke. They've spend too long promoting mediocrity. There should be only 1-2 CEB's in a region and certainly not one in each county. And furthermore they should be more focused on perhaps micro start-ups with good export potential. As the company grows, Enterprise Ireland should come in and help accelerate development to a more scalable level.

The problem that there are very few good ideas and perhaps even fewer ideas that are scalable to a mass audience. I mean how many indigenous companies have come out of Ireland with a sustainable business model and have made it internationally? Very few. After years of an unsustainable building boom, the Irish are slowing getting round to understanding the concept of exporting. Problem is... slowly is not good enough... it needs to happen now.

Companies these days use parts and services sourced internationally. The enterprise boards and IDA should encourage setting up of added value trading companies (local/foreign) in Ireland to service the European market aswell as worldwide. The enterprise does not even have to sell a product that is made in Ireland to be successful. I personally know a few SME companies which could locate in Ireland for European market, but the local enterprise boards probably wouldn't support them as the product is substantially manufactured outside Ireland. Actually the main reason they won't support is because they are not big multinationals but SMEs, which shows complete lack of foresight and vision.

It is also true that sometimes a company needs to get going in the home market before developing export potential, as is how many American and German companies grew to be export giants.

According to terms above companies such as Amazon, companies that could setup up European service centres would not be supported to base out of Ireland

stepbar

dromarka wrote: »

Again you have made assumptions
there are currently no competitors for the service/product im bringing to market.
you have a very single minded response but if you were willing to look a bit deeper you might become a little more enlightened it isnt just about working harder to get the economy going,and it certainly isnt all about exports, all we have to do is look at how unstable export led economies can be,a lot of far eastern countries with massive export surplus dont seem to be that better off.
consider for a moment if you will that if i manage to have an original idea that is proven in the home market then there is no reason why that should not become an export in the future.
i mean we can all cook a burger but mc donalds have managed to do it worldwide
as for finance have a meeting with the bank next week will let you know

Tell you what... Send me on your business plan and i'll have a look at it. I 100% g'tee that I have no interest in your proposed business.

rainbowdash

stepbar wrote: »

A blinkered view huh :rolleyes:

So tell me... who are your competitors? How do you think they will repond to you? Well let me tell you... they'll either cut jobs or cut costs (which will ultimately effect jobs elsewhere). And whilst you might announce a 100 jobs down the line another number of jobs are lost somewhere else. We are now in a contracting economy and that's what happens.

Exporting provides the only real avenue for "real" sustainable growth in terms of jobs and wealth creation etc. It's not rocket science. Ireland has a population of over 5 million, Europe over 300million and so on internationally. And whilst I'm all for someone starting a business that sets out to do something that someone else is not doing well but don't fool yourself, it won't create a net job effect. If you want to add jobs to the economy you must be export led otherwise you're only, to paraphrase a well known saying, "robbing Peter to pay Paul".

Thats true to a point, but as has been said already, substituting imports is also important. When I go to the shop I buy tomatos, mushrooms, strawberries and flowers etc. from the Netherlands and elsewhere.

Now I am no horticulturalist but I understand heated greenhouses increase productivity and lengthen the season, so if an Irish company proposed to setup greenhouses to produce homegrown fruit which reduces imports and also use excess energy that the ESB et al dump at night then its worth supporting.

Of course fundamentally we need to reduce the mimimum wage and cost of electricity and many other things to be competitive with Holland etc. in the first place but thats another matter.

Point is- if you can do something that reduces imports thats bottom line added value.

Southsider1

So, I was browsing some of the County Enterprise Boards sites. Didn't realise they have (slightly) different criteria in each area. Here's one from the Wicklow CEB and this leaves LOADS of potential..... Actually I was trying to think of any business that would qualify... Any ideas?

Projects which will not qualify for support:

• Projects which are contrary to public policy, particularly projects which would be likely to promote displacement of existing businesses or employment
• Projects involving primary agricultural production
• Companies which already have a relationship with Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland, Shannon Development or Udaras na Gaeltachta
• Companies whose current/potential emloyment exceeds 10 persons
• Projects, which could proceed without grant assistance, or only by taking market share from existing businesses to survive
• Retail outlets (incl. restaurants, coffee shops)
• Professional services (including consultancies)
• Most locally based service businesses, trades etc. (unless export potential)
• Import and distribution businesses
• Franchises
• Tourist accommodation
• Community projects/ non-commercial ventures

busman

Southsider1 wrote: »

Actually I was trying to think of any business that would qualify... Any ideas?

Manufacturing?

LK1

Southsider1 wrote: »

Taken from a County Enterprise Board site:

Projects cannot be assisted financially where they do not substantially comply with the criteria outlined above, or where any of the following apply:

• Primary agriculture production is involved
• The project involves wholesale, retail or transport services
• The project is a professional service
• The project is a construction trade
• The provision of financial assistance from the CEB has the potential to lead to job displacement or result in unfair competition
• The provision of financial assistance duplicates support available from existing programme and/or other agency
• The project can be implemented without financial assistance from the CEB
• The proposal is at variance with national and/or EU policies (e.g. de minimis rules)

So, you see, It pretty much rules out every type of enterprise! I've posted on here before, how useless I think the enterprise boards are. Just another state sponsored quango in place to waste money. They're blinkered on export businesses only. You could be exporting dog sh1t and they'll give you a grant but provide ten jobs in, say, retail and you've no chance!

Don't give up yet though! There are other ways. It would help if I knew how much you need to raise. (PM me if you wish) You could look to your local Credit Union if it's not too much. Some may go up to 50k so that's not too bad. There are various 'Angel Investor' organisations who may be interested and there may be other regional initiatives, again, depending where you live. There are also EU grants available, again, depending on your project.

Rubbish!!
Enterprise Boards
Cost of 14+ member Board €0(unlike many state agencies)all voluntary
Cost of 6-8 member evaulation comitee €0-voluntary
Cost of staff 3.5 staff and reducing per county
Rest of cost allocated to enterprise supports for small business....

mari2222

enterprise ireland - support and grants for businesses over 10 employees
cebs- ditto for up to 10 employees

cebs - grant limited to certain government priorities (manuf. /export), other supports e.g. subsidised training/ free advice, not limited

If you are proposing opening a shop or hairdresser for example, you will not get a grant anywhere because that would be unfair to existing operators.

If your business idea makes a good proposition it will get funding from investors, gov funding is only an "extra" to incentivise exports, because this increases the country's wealth. Getting a grant should not be a reason to start a business. I read somewhere that we cant make the country rich by taking in each others washing - there would be more "business" but no more wealth!

Southsider1

mari2222 wrote: »

enterprise ireland - support and grants for businesses over 10 employees
cebs- ditto for up to 10 employees

cebs - grant limited to certain government priorities (manuf. /export), other supports e.g. subsidised training/ free advice, not limited

If you are proposing opening a shop or hairdresser for example, you will not get a grant anywhere because that would be unfair to existing operators.

If your business idea makes a good proposition it will get funding from investors, gov funding is only an "extra" to incentivise exports, because this increases the country's wealth. Getting a grant should not be a reason to start a business. I read somewhere that we cant make the country rich by taking in each others washing - there would be more "business" but no more wealth!

Have you direct experinece of dealing with either E.I. or any CEB? I have on much more than one occasion. For example last month I (with a client) submitted a very viable proposal to a CEB and we were told that none of them have any funds left for allocation this year. This client has a product that will be 90% export with locally sourced raw materials. I was told by another EI person who proudly boasted that they had allocated over 60 million euro to seventy companies that between them had created seven hundred jobs. That's over €85,000 per job :eek: Value for money?? I don't think so!

Both E.I. and CEB were useless. Bord Snip could do worse than clearing them all out and use the money they waste on awards ceremonies and subsidising their lavish staff facilities at the Eastpoint Business park on something more useful.

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan

The real question is what support are you looking for and why do you need it? You mentioned your putting in funding yourself. So just because the gov bodies wont give you cash, does it really make the business concept unable to get off the ground?

DubTony

Just saw this and only read the opening post.

Here's my opinion. Leave the bloody government out of it. There's hardly a month goes by there isn't somebody on this forum moaning about not getting "help" from some government body or another. And I have to say, it just really pisses me off.

In it's truest form capitalism would neither need nor accept subsidies, handouts or whatever from government. Unfortunately it seems to be the norm today. People, and even business people seem to expect that they deserve something from government. It's not a governments job to help an entrepreneur make it. Unfortunately the only real job of government is make the books look good and get re-elected. And I say unfortunately, because the proper role is to protect the people and serve the country. It should never have been governments job to provide jobs or reward those who do.

If you open a supermarket and hire a hundred people, you get nothing. If you open a chain of car service centres and employ another hundred you get nothing.

Here's the dictionary definition of Entrepreneur.

a person who organizes and operates a business or businesses, taking on greater than normal financial risks in order to do so.

There's no mention of getting "help". No mention of subsidies. If the business has the potential to stand on it's own, somebody will invest in it. I wonder how many businesses never got further than the paper stage because the entrepreneur involved didn't get his expected government backing and just let it go.

/RANT

Southsider1

DubTony wrote: »

Just saw this and only read the opening post.

Here's my opinion. Leave the bloody government out of it. There's hardly a month goes by there isn't somebody on this forum moaning about not getting "help" from some government body or another. And I have to say, it just really pisses me off.

Fair enough. Then they should dissolve Enterprise Ireland, The many County and City Enpterprise Boards, Leader Groups etc etc that are purporting to support new industry.

DubTony

Southsider1 wrote: »

Fair enough. Then they should dissolve Enterprise Ireland, The many County and City Enpterprise Boards, Leader Groups etc etc that are purporting to support new industry.

I couldn't agree more.

jesse.j

somewhere in my recent browsing i saw something on 'cross border business initiatives'. has the supplier any northern links. sorry i can't be clearer. try a search on this. also there are supports for social enterprise - could your bus-plan be tweaked? good luck.