The Decline and Fall of Evangelicalism

Fanny Cradock

I've heard a prediction made in the past - within x amount of years evangelicalism in the US will implode because secular external pressures and an intellectual and spiritual vacuum within. Two views on this below.

Michael Spencer (AKA internetmonk)

We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.

Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century

[...]

Despite all of these challenges, it is impossible not to be hopeful. As one commenter has already said, "Christianity loves a crumbling empire."

We can rejoice that in the ruins, new forms of Christian vitality and ministry will be born. I expect to see a vital and growing house church movement. This cannot help but be good for an evangelicalism that has made buildings, numbers, and paid staff its drugs for half a century.

(Link to the above essay which is itself adapted from a series on his blog (see internetmonk link at the start of the quote box))

Patrol Magazine

[...]But so many twenty-somethings are not calling themselves “post-evangelical” because they know too little theology or have put too small an effort into synthesizing it with reality. They have come from the most apologetics-obsessed generation of Christians in American history, and have realized that many of their prepared answers are for questions that no one is asking. Adrift in the cultural sea, many turned to traditions and theological systems of the past, only to find those similarly unequipped to address the questions of our time. The only choice has been to begin the messy and at times overwhelming process of drafting something new[...]

(Link)

Thoughts?

iUseVi

I don't know if you will be interested in this, but these US figures include evangelical churches:

http://pewforum.org/Age/Religion-Among-the-Millennials.aspx

I can't attest for their reliability, don't blame me if they are shockingly wrong.

Fanny Cradock

Interesting. But from what I gather, these people (Christians, btw) are positing an unprecedented crumble of the movement. I'm not sure these stats would necessarily reflect this.

iUseVi

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Interesting. But from what I gather, these people (Christians, btw) are positing an unprecedented crumble of the movement. I'm not sure these stats would necessarily reflect this.

Aren't these people making a prediction that is not directly shown in trends though? I don't see an "unprecedented crumble" in current numbers, so I'm assuming they are making some sort of fairly wild prediction.

strobe

I'm just curious Fanny (or anyone else), if Micheal Spencer is right and 50% of evangelical Christians cease being evangelical Christians, what in your opinion do you think that 50% will become instead?

wolfsbane

strobe wrote: »

I'm just curious Fanny (or anyone else), if Micheal Spencer is right and 50% of evangelical Christians cease being evangelical Christians, what in your opinion do you think that 50% will become instead?

Atheists, New Age/Emergent 'Christians', Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Muslim.

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Jude:5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

strobe

I get that everyones an individual and all that Wolfsbane, but presumably there is some denomination that would appeal to former evangelical Christians more than others?

StealthRolex

strobe wrote: »

I'm just curious Fanny (or anyone else), if Micheal Spencer is right and 50% of evangelical Christians cease being evangelical Christians, what in your opinion do you think that 50% will become instead?

Michael Spencer is of the opinion that the RC and Orthodox Churches will absorb a good many and I would agree having seen similar movements in the UK as the Protestant churches adapt and change to make themselves more "attractive" and "up to date".

Aside: if anyone wants and answer as to why RC appears to be reluctant to change, the Evangelical experience would appear to be a good example. Some people just want things plain, simple and traditional - "this is what Jesus said", not "this is my interpretation of what Jesus might say today".

Churches need to be built on rock not sand.

wolfsbane

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I've heard a prediction made in the past - within x amount of years evangelicalism in the US will implode because secular external pressures and an intellectual and spiritual vacuum within. Two views on this below.





Thoughts?

Yes, it may well be so, given the trends we see. The term Evangelical has already become virtually worthless as a name for those who follow the NT faith. Many so-called are evidently not followers of Christ, but of their own lusts.

But we cannot be sure what is next, for God has often revived true religion in the most depraved societies: Britain in the time of Whitefield and the Wesleys, for example.

But I believe the Church coming to the Last Day will experience a great apostasy, and most of its professing members will abandon the faith:
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
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1 Timothy 2:8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

wolfsbane

strobe wrote: »

I get that everyones an individual and all that Wolfsbane, but presumably there is some denomination that would appeal to former evangelical Christians more than others?

I doubt it.

Some I know personally are now just liberal religionists of the Sadducee type; others are atheists; one is a Roman Catholic. I think it depends on what caused them to abandon the faith - moral laxity in themselves; anger at the moral/theological laxity of their particular Evangelical church; scientific opinions having greater credibility than the Bible; some Biblical doctrines becoming unpalatable.

Each cause pushes in a different direction.

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Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

wolfsbane

StealthRolex wrote: »

Michael Spencer is of the opinion that the RC and Orthodox Churches will absorb a good many and I would agree having seen similar movements in the UK as the Protestant churches adapt and change to make themselves more "attractive" and "up to date".

Aside: if anyone wants and answer as to why RC appears to be reluctant to change, the Evangelical experience would appear to be a good example. Some people just want things plain, simple and traditional - "this is what Jesus said", not "this is my interpretation of what Jesus might say today".

Churches need to be built on rock not sand.

But of course "this is my interpretation of what Jesus might say today" is not the historic Evangelical position. That position was "this is what Jesus said"( ie, the Bible), as opposed to what the papacy said or any man's opinion. Churches indeed do need to be built on Christ and His Word. That Word endures forever. It does not vary with the current consensus on moral behaviour, the role of men and women, nor the origins of life on earth.

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Genesis 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

PDN

I've been involved in studying the church attendance figures for the US with various denominational leaders.

One of the problems is that, in the words of Dr Gregory House, people lie. If you add up the numbers reported by churches it can be as much as 15-20% lower than the numbers of respondents in surveys who claim to attend church. Americans, it seems, like to pretend that they are more religious than they really are.

You could sum up the figures for the USA as follows:

Mainline Protestant Churches (Episcopalian, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran etc) are in serious numerical decline.

Catholics are showing a very slight decline. The main reason they are doing better than mainline Protestants is because of Hispanic immigrants.

Evangelicals such as Baptists etc. are generally holding their own.

Mormons, Pentecostals, Orthodox, Buddhists, Muslims, & Hindus are showing slight increases.

Non-denominational congregations. many of which are very informal and meet in peoples' homes rather than church buildings, are the big winners. They are increasing at an impressive rate.

Overall, if you lump everything together, the percentage of worshippers is decreasing, but at a slight rate. Those churches that are increasing the fastest tend to be those that are conservative in doctrine, but innovative in style. Those that are decining the fastest tend to be those that are liberal in doctrine, but traditional in style.

The big sea change that is happening in the US religious scene at present is the decline of Christendom rather than Christianity. The church's hold over the culture is rapidly diminishing (thank God!).

Stephentlig

Catholics are showing a very slight decline. The main reason they are doing better than mainline Protestants is because of Hispanic immigrants.

seeing as your involved in studying the figures and have an in depth understanding of the situation could you give us the statistics and links of proof for this personal assertion?

Pax Christi
Stephen

PDN

Stephentlig wrote: »

seeing as your involved in studying the figures and have an in depth understanding of the situation could you give us the statistics and links of proof for this personal assertion?

Most of the statistics I've seen are in denominational documents rather than something you google - but here are a few links that demonstrate the same trends:

http://www.newsroomamerica.com/story/9985.html

http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time.com/2009/04/09/the-fall-of-mass-attendance-but-not-us-religiosity/

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2004-11-07-church-main_x.htm

Fanny Cradock

iUseVi wrote: »

Aren't these people making a prediction that is not directly shown in trends though? I don't see an "unprecedented crumble" in current numbers, so I'm assuming they are making some sort of fairly wild prediction.

Well what if those trends have yet manifest the bigger picture? I would assume that any predictions made by the likes of Spencer would be based upon many inputs of which observations from within would be key. Not everything is revealed or made immediately apparent by statistics.

I do find it exceedingly odd that I'm have to defend the idea there may be some massive changes afoot in Evangelicalism with an atheist. I'm really here to explore the possibilities.

strobe wrote: »

I'm just curious Fanny (or anyone else), if Micheal Spencer is right and 50% of evangelical Christians cease being evangelical Christians, what in your opinion do you think that 50% will become instead?

I really don't know. I speak with self-admitted ignorance on the subject. But if such a collapse were to happen, I would think that it would be to the benefit of other traditional denominations. It seems reasonable to assume that the main beneficiaries would be those denominations that are part of the Protestant tradition, but perhaps people would be looking outside Protestantism all together. We might even see a Phoenix arise from the ashes in the form of the emergent movement.

iUseVi

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Well what if those trends have yet manifest the bigger picture? I would assume that any predictions made by the likes of Spencer would be based upon many inputs of which observations from within would be key. Not everything is revealed or made immediately apparent by statistics.

I do find it exceedingly odd that I'm have to defend the idea there may be some massive changes afoot in Evangelicalism with an atheist. I'm really here to explore the possibilities.

Hey! Not defending, just discussing, I'm as interested in this as your are, perhaps more. :P The thing is I have a certain amount of first hand experience in the evangelical arena (not as much as PDN now). I'm just skeptical of any huge changes in the US scene, if this were Europe then maybe yeah. Perhaps I'm just behind the times a bit though, its been a few years .

I don't wish to be crude about it, but it's all about raising the children in the same faith. Sure you'll get some converts off the street, but most of the sustainability comes from within families. So I suppose the question is about education. I know less are being home-schooled than 10-20 years ago, that used to be a big thing. Maybe that sort of thing is where the difference lies, but like I say I'm "not in the scene" anymore and its not the kind of thing google is any help for.

Fanny Cradock

iUseVi wrote: »

I don't wish to be crude about it, but it's all about raising the children in the same faith. Sure you'll get some converts off the street, but most of the sustainability comes from within families. So I suppose the question is about education. I know less are being home-schooled than 10-20 years ago, that used to be a big thing. Maybe that sort of thing is where the difference lies, but like I say I'm "not in the scene" anymore and its not the kind of thing google is any help for.

Actually, I think that is far too crude an assessment, and I'm not sure you're not inserting the old "indoctrination" canard at the expense of the reasons behind people leaving Evangelical circles, which is not to say there is definitely a collapse in the offing. I gather that the whole point of this shift away from traditional forms of Evangelicalism is rooted in more complex reasons than you allow. It's not simply a matter of home-schooling (see below), you ignore the the deconstructionist and post-modern nature of the movement and the palpable dissatisfaction with the fundamental foundations of Evangelicalism that one can detect. One of the more significant figures in the emergent movement is Scot McKnight. Here he discusses the movement and briefly outlines 8 reasons behind the dissatisfaction with traditional Evangelicalism. Despite what some may say, Christians are able to think for themselves, and in the the case of Evangelicalism it is evidenced by reduced foot fall and grumbling from within. Again, to clarify all this might just be a result of decline (temporary or otherwise) and not fall.

(Interestingly, while the % of evangelical involvement in home-schooling is extraordinary high (~70%), this figure is dropping in relation to the increased number of parents choosing to home-school. Also, the reason behind a the choice to home school isn't strictly religious. A 2008 US Department of Education report gave the following reasons behind choices: 36% of home-schooling parents reported that providing religious or moral instruction as the most important reason behind their decision; 21% percent were "concerned about the school environment"; and 17% were "dissatisfaction with the academic instruction available at other schools.")

iUseVi

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Actually, I think that is far too crude an assessment, and I'm not sure you're not inserting the old "indoctrination" canard at the expense of the real reasons behind people leaving Evangelical circles, which is not to say there is definitely a collapse in the offing. Despite what some may say, Christians are able to think for themselves, and in the the case of Evangelicalism it is evidenced by reduced foot fall and grumbling from within. Again, to clarify all this might just be a result of decline (temporary or otherwise) and not fall. I gather that the whole point of this shift away from traditional forms of Evangelicalism is rooted in more complex reasons than you allow. Its not simply a matter of home-schooling (see below), you ignore the the deconstructionist and post-modern nature of the movement and the palpable dissatisfaction with the fundamental foundations of Evangelicalism that one can detect. I gather that one of the more significant figures in the emergent movement is Scot McKnight. Here he discusses the movement and briefly outlines 8 reasons behind the dissatisfaction with traditional Evangelicalism.

I'm not talking about "indoctrination" in the way you think I mean it. I have to agree that its not as simple as that. A "population" of a particular denomination has as far as I can see two ways to grow or even keep stable:

1) Keep existing members
2) Obtain new members

I'm not talking about indoctrination, but I don't think you would disagree that children from families are a key "market" for case 2. I think it's probably the dominant way new member are gained, but I think that is different from church to church. I know this wasn't the main point of the articles, I just thought it worth mentioning that evangelical churches traditionally are strong in this area in this area, ie. most children stick to their parents faith.

But more OT, I think a key point is that the word "evangelical" has become a bit meaningless for many. I don't see these people moving towards more orthodox streams, I think they are just becoming reluctant to "define" themselves concretely with particular organisations. But this is all IMO, I have only my own experience to base this on.

I agree with your point that people have a "dissatisfaction with the fundamental foundations", I have only to talk to my friends from my old church to see this. What will be interesting to see is 1) where will they go, 2) how long will this take. I love this line in the first article "A small band will work hard to rescue the movement from its demise through theological renewal. This is an attractive, innovative, and tireless community with outstanding media, publishing, and leadership development." Personally, I think this process was already happening when I was at church. They were pouring money into various youth projects etc. without any palpable results. (just IMHO, I must stress, the movement is not define by its individual churches, but I think it's a common symptom)

Fanny Cradock

Out of curiosity, what church church did you belong to how old where you when you left it and how long ago was did this happen?

iUseVi

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what church church did you belong to how old where you when you left it and how long ago was did this happen?

Nope sorry, I relish my anonymity on these boards.

Fanny Cradock

iUseVi wrote: »

Nope sorry, I relish my anonymity on these boards.

Get ya. I wasn't trying to expose you or anything. Curiosity got the better of me.

Fanny Cradock

iUseVi wrote: »

2) Obtain new members

I'm not talking about indoctrination, but I don't think you would disagree that children from families are a key "market" for case 2. I think it's probably the dominant way new member are gained, but I think that is different from church to church. I know this wasn't the main point of the articles, I just thought it worth mentioning that evangelical churches traditionally are strong in this area in this area, ie. most children stick to their parents faith.

I would be interested to see if PDN has any experience with relation to converts from other denominations, religions or those of no specific faith or none. I seem to remember (but I've been known to be wrong) that Tim Keller spoke of how the birth and growth of Redeemer Presbyterian Church didn't follow the trend you outline. However, despite what I've written above, I gather that the whole point of this post-evangelical movement (or whatever you want to call it) is that increasingly theologically and spiritually dissatisfied people are not sticking to their parents faith.

iUseVi wrote: »

But more OT, I think a key point is that the word "evangelical" has become a bit meaningless for many. I don't see these people moving towards more orthodox streams, I think they are just becoming reluctant to "define" themselves concretely with particular organisations. But this is all IMO, I have only my own experience to base this on.

I agree. But people like Spencer (God rest his soul), McKnight and the kindred disaffected do have a clear view of what they are moving away from.

iUseVi wrote: »

Personally, I think this process was already happening when I was at church. They were pouring money into various youth projects etc. without any palpable results. (just IMHO, I must stress, the movement is not define by its individual churches, but I think it's a common symptom)

Interesting!