Advice from seasoned marathoners-what to do next !

Mr Marenghi

Hi,

So some background, 27yrs old male, 13stone(12 and a half when training hard). Running fairly consistently since early 2008.

2010 Connemarathon 4:40 (injured for a over month before taper, wasn't fit enough)
2009 Dublin Marathon 4:04
2009 Adidas Half Marathon 1:47
2009 Adidas 5 mile 39mins



For Dublin Marathon I followed Hal Higdons Novice plan, I was following Intermediate plan before I got injured. Anyway, I got through Connemarathon fine, paced myself for about 5 hrs as I was unsure about my fitness/injury - but finished in 4:40.

My next marathon to do is Dublin again.....so, there's quite a bit of time between now and then. To start an average 18wk programme it'd start at the end of June.

So the questions -
I'm looking at doing the Advanced program on Hal Higdon ? Any advice if this is wise ? http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/advanced1/advanced1.htm
Between now and the start of that what should I be doing trainingwise?
Whats a realistic time to aim for in Dublin ? I wanna hit under 4hrs for sure, is 3.30 something to try for ?

I guess I feel I have the summer months ahead of me and am definitely willing to put the work in if its needed.

All advice much appreciated.

bart simpson

Mr Marenghi wrote: »

Hi,

So some background, 27yrs old male, 13stone(12 and a half when training hard). Running fairly consistently since early 2008.

2010 Connemarathon 4:40 (injured for a over month before taper, wasn't fit enough)
2009 Dublin Marathon 4:04
2009 Adidas Half Marathon 1:47
2009 Adidas 5 mile 39mins



For Dublin Marathon I followed Hal Higdons Novice plan, I was following Intermediate plan before I got injured. Anyway, I got through Connemarathon fine, paced myself for about 5 hrs as I was unsure about my fitness/injury - but finished in 4:40.

My next marathon to do is Dublin again.....so, there's quite a bit of time between now and then. To start an average 18wk programme it'd start at the end of June.

So the questions -
I'm looking at doing the Advanced program on Hal Higdon ? Any advice if this is wise ? http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/advanced1/advanced1.htm
Between now and the start of that what should I be doing trainingwise?
Whats a realistic time to aim for in Dublin ? I wanna hit under 4hrs for sure, is 3.30 something to try for ?

I guess I feel I have the summer months ahead of me and am definitely willing to put the work in if its needed.

All advice much appreciated.

you will definatley do 3.30 if you train right and pace right on the day...if your doing that advanced programme you would want to start to build your weekly milage up slowly so that when you start your programme in june your body can handle the first weeks milage easily otherwise you run the risk of getting injured again

Oisin11178

bart simpson wrote: »

you will definatley do 3.30 if you train right and pace right on the day...if your doing that advanced programme you would want to start to build your weekly milage up slowly so that when you start your programme in june your body can handle the first weeks milage easily otherwise you run the risk of getting injured again

The op has a chance of sub 3.30 with the right training. Although 4.04 to sub 3.30 is a fairly big leap. To say they will definatly do it is a bit optimistic. I know it took me 3 cracks at 3.30 before i got it. Good luck anyway:-)

Krusty_Clown

I think now that you've got a few marathons under your belt, you're ready to step away from the Hal Higdons and the 4/5 easy runs per week. It's time to commit.

I wanna hit under 4hrs for sure, is 3.30 something to try for ? I guess I feel I have the summer months ahead of me and am definitely willing to put the work in if its needed.

This is not fighting talk. This is not someone who really want to forge ahead. This reads like doubt. Set your target, make it aggressive, and then do everything you can to hit that target. You might not get it bang on, but you're sure to get close. Asking us what your target should be kind of defeats the whole purpose. Sit back for a while. Think about just how much of your time, blood, sweat and tears you are willing to commit between now and October, and then tell us what you're new target is, and ask us how to get there.

Over the last couple of years, those who have been successful marathon runners on boards (success measured in hitting or getting close to their targets) have followed one or more of the following programs:
1) Pfitzinger and Douglas Advanced Marathoning
2) Building a program around Tergat's advice and sessions and mixing these with recovery sessions
3) Joining a club, and following a coach-based/mentored program and benefitting from club sessions (of the running variety)
4) A mixture of the above three approaches, or a program that includes the same essential elements
5) Others have achieves success through running very high mileage programs and high mileage runs (26+). Not for the faint-hearted.

My first two half marathons were 1:52 and 1:44, and my first marathon was 3:25 and I'm no poster-child.
Commit.
Choose your training program.
Train.
Run.
Celebrate

/Exit Braveheart mode.

TFBubendorfer

Pretty much what Krusty said, though I would not mix programs.

I was by using the Pfitzinger and Douglas Advanced Marathoning book than I lowered my marathon time from 4:06 to 3:28 a few years ago, so it can be done. It took me 3 marathons and 18 months to do so, though.

kennyb3

im going to have to be the mean one so, i dont know your height but what the lads said plus lose a stone and you ll be flying. sorry

tunney

Slightly O/T but where do those looking at speedier marathons look for sessions/programmes/guidance?

aero2k

tunney wrote: »

Slightly O/T but where do those looking at speedier marathons look for sessions/programmes/guidance?

Speedier than????

tunney

aero2k wrote: »

Speedier than????

speedier than the normal queries

RedB

Mr Marenghi wrote: »

So the questions -
I'm looking at doing the Advanced program on Hal Higdon ? Any advice if this is wise ? http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/advanced1/advanced1.htm
Between now and the start of that what should I be doing trainingwise?
Whats a realistic time to aim for in Dublin ? I wanna hit under 4hrs for sure, is 3.30 something to try for ?

I guess I feel I have the summer months ahead of me and am definitely willing to put the work in if its needed.

All advice much appreciated.

I think that your willingness to put the work in is the key to improving your time. Some people start running and can throw out a sub 3:30 marathon on their first attempt and some people can't. I'm one of the 'can't' group.
I wouldn't call myself a seasoned marathoner but my two previous attempts resulted in 4:30 (DCM 03) and 4:50 (DCM 09) times albeit without following a proper training plan. After DCM 09 I decided to put the work in and see where it got me. My goal time would be sub 3:30 but its a very big ask for me so I'm hoping to go sub 3:50 in Limerick on May 2nd and if that works out ok, then to push on again to DCM 10 to try and achieve the sub 3:30 goal. I would've found it very hard to follow the Hal Higdon advanced program this year as there's a lot of mileage throughout the week and I'd have needed more recovery time so I'm following an Intermediate plan for Limerick. I intend following the basic P+D plan from June for DCM 10 as, at this stage, I feel I can handle the increased mileage, the different sessions (interval, tempo, etc) and frequency of running that it will involve. While I would've liked to have used an advanced program for Limerick and I had the time to try and ramp up before it commenced, I realised that it was unrealistic and I'd be better to phase my progress to suit my own situation. However, each to their own, and parhaps the advanced program will suit your situation. However, my point is the significant work is needed to follow that or any other plan to achieve sub 3:30 and that your willingness to put in that work is key to achieving it. It will not be easy, and it may not work out but you've got to try. As Lyle Lovet says - what would we be if we didn't even try? .
As regards advice, I feel I've made progress in my times this year by doing a variety of different run sessions. Track speed sessions with a club, tempo runs, long slow runs, recovery runs as well as regular aerobic runs have all helped me go further faster compared to the one-pace runs I used to do. Progress is gradual and is only usually visable with hindsight and milestone race pb's. Stick with your prgram as much as possible but don't beat yourself up if life throws you the odd curveball. Roll with it. Having a training buddy has also helped me keep on program as there will be times you'd be inclined to skip a session if they weren't there. There have been several times when I've questioned why I'm doing it (usually on my 5th repeat of a track speed session :rolleyes:) only to realise that those are the exact moments when I know I am putting the work in. You get out what you put in. Having a training log is another way of harnessing your thoughts and directing them back to your goal of sub x:xx. Coming to the end of my current program I believe that there's more in the tank for DCM 10 and hopefully it'll go ok on May 2nd in Limerick but whatever happens, I know I put the work in and I get a lot of satisfaction even from that. Have your goal but enjoy trying to achieve it too .

Krusty_Clown

tunney wrote: »

speedier than the normal queries

You mean sub-3? Sub 2:45? Sub 2:30? If your goal is 2:40-3:00 the training logs are quite a good starting point, as you can read about what approaches others took to hit these times. If it's 2:30 and faster, I would imagine club-coaching is the way to go as a general program is unlikely to suit and runner-specific guidance is probably required.

It is interesting to read that four of the Mission 2012 athletes are self-coached.

Peckham

Not much to really add to what the guys above have said.

In order to give yourself a good education on the components of "advanced" marathon plans, then reading the Pfitzinger & Douglas book is a great place to start. Whilst you may not decided to follow their (highly respected) training plans published in their book, you'll know about the sort of things you should be doing (with a lot of overlap with Higdon's plans).

I'm a Pfitzinger and Tergat follower, so I would be preaching their messages of the training needing to match the event. In order to maximise your potential you need to be doing training that is specific to this event - i.e. long runs (18+ miles), with miles in training at your current marathon pace. Short interval sessions and the like are secondary to all this.

So your focus now should be on (slowly) building up to being able to do longer runs quite comfortably.

Might be worth explaining some of the background to your injury, as this could turn out to be a recurring issue unless remedied.

OuterBombie

Mr Marenghi wrote: »

Hi,

So some background, 27yrs old male, 13stone(12 and a half when training hard). Running fairly consistently since early 2008.

I guess I feel I have the summer months ahead of me and am definitely willing to put the work in if its needed.

All advice much appreciated.

All of the above fantastic advice plus maybe one or two of the following:

- look into your overall diet and lifestyle. Some minor changes might have significant effects with respect to weight and body composition.

- injury worries, get that last injury sorted before starting any other plans.

- stretching/core workout routines. I know running is the end all and be all but a friend of mine went from 36 min 10k's to 34 min 10k's after 4 months of pilates! Core strength was obviously an issue for him, probably an issue for most of us.

- don't set yourself up to burn out. Try some different types of racing, from 5k's to adventure races, keep your training fresh, try to line everything up for those 5-6 critical weeks when you'll be living breathing running in the build up to that A-race, then take a nice break.

Keep your sanity in line with your fitness and ambitions and in a few years you'll be asking the same question except there'll be over a hour off that goal time.

tunney

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

You mean sub-3? Sub 2:45? Sub 2:30? If your goal is 2:40-3:00 the training logs are quite a good starting point, as you can read about what approaches others took to hit these times. If it's 2:30 and faster, I would imagine club-coaching is the way to go as a general program is unlikely to suit and runner-specific guidance is probably required.

It is interesting to read that four of the Mission 2012 athletes are self-coached.

I know how to get into sub 2:50 shape, to get below that I'm not sure. Running with a club is a non starter to be honest while I only live 500m from one I'd imagine training would have to happen at strange hours these days and a club set up wouldn't be ideal.

Logs are descriptive, I'm looking for something more prescriptive.

dermCu

Mr Marenghi wrote: »

Hi,

So the questions -
I'm looking at doing the Advanced program on Hal Higdon ? Any advice if this is wise ? http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/advanced1/advanced1.htm
Between now and the start of that what should I be doing trainingwise?
Whats a realistic time to aim for in Dublin ? I wanna hit under 4hrs for sure, is 3.30 something to try for ?

I guess I feel I have the summer months ahead of me and am definitely willing to put the work in if its needed.

All advice much appreciated.

Is is wise?
I don't think that's the the question you should be asking. You should be asking: "Is this the best training plan for me at this point?" Don't forget that HH is a mass appeal training plan. It is designed to be generic enough to cover as many potential marathon runners as it can. You are at an advantage - you've done 2 marathons. You've got an idea of how this marathon thing works. The previous posts give good pointers, its up to you to do the research to find the plan (or devise one yourself) that is best for you. People here would be more than happy to comment on it. But beware - there is no magic component or set of workouts that will make you faster. Its a long slog of putting in the hard grind and always looking to improve. If you are in this for the long haul then you should look into the concept of periodized training.

Between now and the start of a plan:
Easy running. Build mileage slowly. Run as many days a week as your circumstances allow. Add mileage week on week taking a step back every 3rd/4th week. This should be enjoyable easy running.

What's a realistic time to aim for in Dublin?
Only you can really answer that but your 2009 5 mile and 1/2 indicate that you could potentially have run under 3:50 Personally I would aim for 3:45 in Dublin and 3:30 the following spring.

Good luck, enjoy the process of getting yourself in a position to achieve your time goal.

Krusty_Clown

tunney wrote: »

Logs are descriptive, I'm looking for something more prescriptive.

I mean have a look at the logs, and see what kind of training programs/regimes runners who achieved a similar target followed. HeffsArmy might be a good example, having recently run 2:40, or T-Runner, having run 2:44.

If a club isn't a viable option, then the Pfitzinger and Douglas programs might be worth a look. I'm not at that standard myself, but hope to tackle sub 2:50 later in the year, and will be following one of their higher mileage programs, having had success with their programs in the past (12 week 55+mpw). Their programs run from 55 mpw to 85+ mpw. Try posting in the sub-3 support thread. It tends to attract some of the faster marathoners.

Mr Marenghi

I guess I should clarify I am willing to put the work in. I just didnt know what seasoned marathoners would say. I live beside Phoenix Park and love running so theres no issue with getting out and doing it.

As regards my injury, it was tendonitis in my left foot, mainly due to running on the streets in the dark evenings and running during snow/ice. It passed now and even during and after the marathon there hasnt been a problem.

With the HH program I feel theres just a lot of maybe aimless mile, not much specific speedwork etc

Either way I guess what I should take fromt his is get my hands on the Advanced Marathoning book.

As reagrds my weight/height im 5ft 11, so I can definitley lose some weight and my diet is probably my weakest point, a whole stone though ?, its not that I cant, but at 12 adn a half stone I was skinny as hell.

Thanks so much for all the replies.

plodder

Not a "seasoned marathoner" by any stretch, but anyway ...
+1 on the P&D book. Their "easiest" 18 wk plan is what I'm aiming to follow for this year's DCM, and hopefully a 3:30 time. At the moment, I'm just ticking over around the level of effort (31-33 miles/wk) at the start of the plan, which will start in June. I think you'd want to be fairly comfortable at that mileage because it builds up from there quite rapidly.

bart simpson

Mr Marenghi wrote: »

I guess I should clarify I am willing to put the work in. I just didnt know what seasoned marathoners would say. I live beside Phoenix Park and love running so theres no issue with getting out and doing it.

As regards my injury, it was tendonitis in my left foot, mainly due to running on the streets in the dark evenings and running during snow/ice. It passed now and even during and after the marathon there hasnt been a problem.

With the HH program I feel theres just a lot of maybe aimless mile, not much specific speedwork etc

Either way I guess what I should take fromt his is get my hands on the Advanced Marathoning book.

As reagrds my weight/height im 5ft 11, so I can definitley lose some weight and my diet is probably my weakest point, a whole stone though ?, its not that I cant, but at 12 adn a half stone I was skinny as hell.

Thanks so much for all the replies.

you wont need to lose a stone....i aint a seasoned marathoner...but il give my 2 cents anyway... i did 3:29 in my first marathon dcm09 last year and i am 5ft 11 and weigh 12 stone....i have a medium type frame....lose a bit of weight maybe but i wouldnt go starvin yourself or anything.
one thing that hasnt being mentioned yet and i think it can realy help is a good watch.. i have a forerunner 305 and it is a great training tool

PS sorry thought you were 12 and half stone now...see there ya are 13 now...id say ya would definatly make it easier on yourself if ya lose a half a stone anyway

Mr Marenghi

bart simpson wrote: »

you wont need to lose a stone....i aint a seasoned marathoner...but il give my 2 cents anyway... i did 3:29 in my first marathon dcm09 last year and i am 5ft 11 and weigh 12 stone....i have a medium type frame....lose a bit of weight maybe but i wouldnt go starvin yourself or anything.
one thing that hasnt being mentioned yet and i think it can realy help is a good watch.. i have a forerunner 305 and it is a great training tool

PS sorry thought you were 12 and half stone now...see there ya are 13 now...id say ya would definitely make it easier on yourself if ya lose a half a stone anyway

Actually, I also have a 305, got it as a present at xmas, its what kept me at the right pace in Connemara and basically got me through it. one thing I definitely gotta figure out with it though is the heart rate monitor, haven't used it yet- in fact i haven't a clue how to use one yet !!!

Actually I am a little under 13stone and I had been off my feet for a month before Connemara. Once I'm training I am in around 12 and a half.

Mr Marenghi

For anybody looking for the Advanced Marathoning book in Dublin, Hodges Figgis on Dawson St have it.