Trickle Ventilation in windows

sydthebeat

This is a bugbear of mine for a long time.

Why are these considered acceptable background ventilation?

1. they are not permanent as they can be closed tightly, and most are, permanently....
2. they are not controllable, any ive seen can only either be open or shut.

i was sort of prompted to post this after another thread where a BC officer accepted a velux on the latch as complying with ventilation requirements.

DOCARCH

I always tell clients/builders these are not acceptable for background ventilation for the reasons you have given.

sydthebeat

have you ever refused to sign them off ?

i can see their popularity, and i can understand their usefulness, i just cant get why they are so widely accepted?

DOCARCH

I only do sign offs on my own projects so in the first instance I specify windows without trickle vents and specify permanent air vents (that's obviously no HRV).

I did have one instance where I was not fully involved in the construction stage of one of my projects - just did inspections for certification, but provided construction drawings - and builder went and installed windows with trickle vents saying 'sure it's all the same'. I refused to sign off until he installed the permanent air vents (as originally specified).

YouWantWhat

Read your building regulations. "Background ventilation means ventilation by means of secure ventilation opening (or openings) consisting of a wall or window ventilator with a controllable ventilation grill and located so as to reduce drafts".

Trickle vents on windows, in my opinion, are far superior to any wall vent that I've ever seen, which leave the wind howling through even when they are closed. Whats the point pumping up the insulation in a house and then putting a 4" dia. hole in the external wall, its crazy. And when was the last time you saw a fire seal around a wall vent where it passes through the cavity? Trickle vents on windows are adjustable (I have them on all my windows) and never have a problem with them.

sydthebeat

YouWantWhat wrote: »

Trickle vents on windows, in my opinion, are far superior to any wall vent that I've ever seen, which leave the wind howling through even when they are closed. ......

ah, you see.. therein lies my issue with them...

The regs. call for "controllable" grills NOT "closable".

As these trickle vents can be closed tight, they NO LONGER provide background ventilation... in my opinion this is contrary to the regulations.

In most cases ive seen them closed once and forgotten about... permanently closed.... this is NOT a good development.

I agree that a hole in the wall is nonsensical from an energy point of view (note: new ventilation regs requires an increase in background ventilation of 50% if Q50 = 5 or better!!).... but that is also the same for trickle vents,when open they allow the same air change rate.

muffler

Im taking a similar but different view on this syd if that makes sense.

As we all know some of the regs can be down to personal interpretation and various people have their own train of thought on specific areas.

I dont believe the regs were ever conceived so as to have a permanent "non controllable" form of background ventilation. Permanent - yes!. Controllable - Yes!

So the choice is either wall or window vents. The wall vents have a controllable cover also that allows for opening and closing as and when required. The trickle vents are on a par insofar as they are also controllable as necessary/required.

IMO either of them work and both comply with the regs. Im a firm believer in that if we follow the examples (and that is all they are, examples) in the TGD's then we cant go wrong with regards to compliance and certifying thereof.

I have signed off on numerous projects where trickle vents have been used and have no problem with it. There are a lot of works that may be compliant at construction/completion stage but that may not necessarily be the case 6 months further down the road but it is not within our remit to revisit completed projects.

sydthebeat

muffler wrote: »

Permanent - yes!. Controllable - Yes!
.

but trickle vents are not 'permanent' as they can be closed...

muffler

sydthebeat wrote: »

but trickle vents are not 'permanent'

They are as permanent as the window in which they are fitted

sydthebeat wrote: »

they can be closed...

As can wall vents

sydthebeat

muffler wrote: »

They are as permanent as the window in which they are fitted



As can wall vents

Sorry, when i say 'permanent' i mean that if they are closed they no longer provide ventilation...

I have yet to see wall vents that can be 'closed'.
The grill on the face can slide over the openings to control the ventilation, but even when fully covered the vent still provides an air change rate.
The idea behind the controllable as aspect is to regulate the air exchange rate, not to negate it.

I think this is one ill put to the dept.

muffler

Would be an interesting one for the dept. alright.

No6

The original 1991 regs only allowed permanent ventilation, ie non closing. A prjoect I was involved with in the mid 90's specified fixed window ventilators in a large hotel bedroom extension. The inability to control the ventilation even through the window ventilators resulted in a storm of complaints from the hotel management untill eventually we removed them and turned them around so the outlet pointed up to the ceiling. The closeable element I believe arrived in the 1997 regs. My interpratation for whats its worth is that it is permanently available but perhaps closed!!! and I always sepcify them as they are far better than a wall vent stuffed with newspaper!!!:D

YouWantWhat

The building regs do not call for permanent background ventilation, its calls for adjustable background ventilation. To me fully closed or fully open or anywhere in between is part of the adjustment.

sydthebeat

I guess the new regs fully put me in my place....

Background ventilator:
A secure ventilation opening generally located in a
wall or window for the purpose of provision
of general ventilation, generally
incorporating a controllable ventilation grill
which can be fully closed.


Thats the end of that then.....

muffler

Captain Bluebear

sydthebeat wrote: »

Thats the end of that then.....

I think its only the beginning. There are significant and under reported problems with poorly vented apartments. Ventilation usually complies with TGD-F but there's still condensation and mould evident. Occupants are closing and blocking vents either by design or by accident. Drying of cloths is commonplace. Mechanical ventilation is often under powered to move sufficient quantities of wet air from inner bathrooms/kitchens to the outside of the building. IMHO Its a combination of poor design, poor construction and lack of awareness by occupants on the causes of condensation.

muffler

Captain Bluebear wrote: »

I think its only the beginning. There are significant and under reported problems with poorly vented apartments. Ventilation usually complies with TGD-F but there's still condensation and mould evident. Occupants are closing and blocking vents either by design or by accident. Drying of cloths is commonplace. Mechanical ventilation is often under powered to move sufficient quantities of wet air from inner bathrooms/kitchens to the outside of the building. IMHO Its a combination of poor design, poor construction and lack of awareness by occupants on the causes of condensation.

All well in good but for the moment the topic here is trickle vents in windows.

Can we stick to that please.

joebre

THe OP was referring to my post in the Construction forum about the BCO approving Velux windows on the latch.
I have just made submissions on retention of a development where many areas ofr the Regs were ignored.
I referred to the Velux windows not being suitable on account of a security issue and the fact that they can blown open!

Some posters have indicated referring it as a query to the Dept.
Can you tell me where queries like this can be directed?

Joe

joebre

joebre wrote: »

THe OP was referring to my post in the Construction forum about the BCO approving Velux windows on the latch.
I have just made submissions on retention of a development where many areas ofr the Regs were ignored.
I referred to the Velux windows not being suitable on account of a security issue and the fact that they can blown open!

Some posters have indicated referring it as a query to the Dept.
Can you tell me where queries like this can be directed?

Joe

Can anybody help here ?

Joe

muffler

joebre wrote: »

Some posters have indicated referring it as a query to the Dept.
Can you tell me where queries like this can be directed?

Joe

joebre wrote: »

Can anybody help here ?

Joe

The answer was in your first post (quoted above). If it's comments/complaints/queries regarding aspects of perceived non compliance of a product with the requirements of the building regulations then you contact the Dept. of the Environment.

If its something you wish to allude to during a planning application the you make your submission to the Planning Authority and to An Bord Pleanala during any subsequent appeal.

justflow1983

Just to add a little breadth to the conversation. I've recently used these on a job (I hope I can post this product ref) http://aereco.com/product.php?product=EMM

They are a humidity sensitive trickle vent. The idea is that high humidity is a measure of poor air quality, and the vent has a piece of nylon in it that swells due to humidity and opens the vent. So when you need fresh air, it opens, and the rest of the time it stays almost closed (can't be fully shut off) in order to ensure occupant comfort. It can be retrofitted on any timber window, our window supplier worked with the vent supplier to make sure they fit.

cormie

Hi folks,
I've a ventilation problem. I'm on a ground floor and there's only 3 options to let air into my place, front door, back door or front window, none of which I can leave open if I'm not here, resulting in very low air circulation and has resulted in mold issues. Landlady got extractor vent fitted to bathroom and a new vent put in the wall at the same time. The fan stopped working about a month ago and the mold is back. She got in touch with a builder so I'm waiting to hear from him. But I'm still thinking this won't be enough.

I was requesting that a small window be put in the back wall but because it's part of a bigger building, management won't allow it, they did allow for the vent installation though. I like the idea of fresh air constantly, even if it's a little chilly at times, I have the back door ajar mostly when I'm here and have started to put it open wider after a shower etc. It was closed for the cold days of winter we had and I believe that's when the mold sprung back.

I found out about trickle vents and was wondering would these provide adequate ventilation if left open? I was thinking, ideally to put one on each the front door and window and on the back door, anywhere moisture is trying to escape from, so it can escape and not have mold build up beside them like it has been doing. I was even thinking 2/3 on each door. Is this a bit overkill?

sydthebeat

cormie wrote: »

Hi folks,
I've a ventilation problem. I'm on a ground floor and there's only 3 options to let air into my place, front door, back door or front window, none of which I can leave open if I'm not here, resulting in very low air circulation and has resulted in mold issues. Landlady got extractor vent fitted to bathroom and a new vent put in the wall at the same time. The fan stopped working about a month ago and the mold is back. She got in touch with a builder so I'm waiting to hear from him. But I'm still thinking this won't be enough.

I was requesting that a small window be put in the back wall but because it's part of a bigger building, management won't allow it, they did allow for the vent installation though. I like the idea of fresh air constantly, even if it's a little chilly at times, I have the back door ajar mostly when I'm here and have started to put it open wider after a shower etc. It was closed for the cold days of winter we had and I believe that's when the mold sprung back.

I found out about trickle vents and was wondering would these provide adequate ventilation if left open? I was thinking, ideally to put one on each the front door and window and on the back door, anywhere moisture is trying to escape from, so it can escape and not have mold build up beside them like it has been doing. I was even thinking 2/3 on each door. Is this a bit overkill?

theres two types of ventilation required... 'purge' and 'background'

purge ventilation usually comes in the form of openable windows which allow for rapid exhaust of a large quantity of smells, smoke, gases etc.

background ventilation is continuous ventilation required for the provision of fresh oxygenated air and for the exhaustion of co2, water vapoured air and persistant odours.

2/3 on each door doesnt sound like background ventilation to me. These usually have a surface area of about 150mm x 150mm. They could possibly be intergrated into timber doors, but if your windows are pvc then it would be practically impossible.

why cant you drill vent holes in the walls?

fatty pang

sydthebeat wrote: »

2/3 on each door doesnt sound like background ventilation to me. These usually have a surface area of about 150mm x 150mm. They could possibly be intergrated into timber doors, but if your windows are pvc then it would be practically impossible.

why cant you drill vent holes in the walls?

Glazed-in vents would be an option for any insulated glazing unit. It will require replacement of the glazing unit with a slightly shorter unit which sits underneath the vent. The door or window frame could be fitted with a slot ventilator - drill a line of 12mm dia holes and cover with external hood and internal controllable cover. Try Window & Door Accessories of the Malahide Road.

cormie

Thanks for the replies folks, not sure why you are saying trickle vents on a pvc door would be impossible? I thought that's what they were designed for? 150x150 seems much bigger than the ones I saw too?

The 3 I was thinking to have on say the back PVC door would be one at the top like this:

and then another on either side too. They could be closed if it got really nippy but left open mostly for fresher air in the house and somewhere for moisture to escape.

2012paddy2012

Has anyone come accross permanent trickle vents for retro fitting on PVC windows
Thks
Paddy

2012paddy2012

justflow1983 wrote: »

Just to add a little breadth to the conversation. I've recently used these on a job (I hope I can post this product ref) http://aereco.com/product.php?product=EMM

They are a humidity sensitive trickle vent. The idea is that high humidity is a measure of poor air quality, and the vent has a piece of nylon in it that swells due to humidity and opens the vent. So when you need fresh air, it opens, and the rest of the time it stays almost closed (can't be fully shut off) in order to ensure occupant comfort. It can be retrofitted on any timber window, our window supplier worked with the vent supplier to make sure they fit.

I just wondered if this can be used to retro fit on a window like this? Or have you come accross anything similar in more recent times .... Sorry for dragging old thread up !

BryanF

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

Has anyone come accross permanent trickle vents for retro fitting on PVC windows

no